Are you telling me God created man and thought he would not sin? Do you think God cannot get rid of the Devil and Evil of this world? Are you telling me God cannot create man not to sin?
Azure, I think you make a lot of assumptions about my beliefs in this thread, most of which are unfounded. So I will try to explain.
I think God created humanity as sentient beings, with the capacity to choose whether to align oneself with God's will or not, and the capacity to intuitively discern what is within God's will. We all carry within us the light of God, and if we turn toward this light and listen to God's word, which is writ on our heart, we gradually sin less. What happens in the meantime is forgiven by grace.
I don't believe in the Devil. I believe in Satan in a very Jewish way, from what I gathered (though I am not Jewish). I believe there is an adversary that is within God's will, and its purpose is for us to overcome it. It is our own self-centered desires, and each of us can overcome it. God can get rid of it, but then we have the power to do this in our own lives as well, which God has given each of us.
As for evil, it depends on your definition and what you mean. I do not view the natural processes of death, destruction, disasters, etc. as evil. They just are. If they feel evil, it is due to our perspective and our attachment to having things comfortable and how we want them, rather than acceptance of the earth as it is. In fact, in many ways these natural processes are good, because they bring with them new life and often, through suffering through them, people are brought closer to one another and more loving. People learn spiritual lessons by facing disease and natural disasters. Other evil is related to suffering that humans cause. God gives us the capacity to choose His will or not. If we choose to follow our temptations of greed, self-centeredness, anger, hatred, fear... it leads to things like famine, war, more disease, poverty. God could end all this, but only by revoking our capacity for choice. Instead, God forgives our sins and yet calls us to change ourselves, which is fully within our own capacity due to God's grace.
God created humanity with the choice of whether or not to sin. I don't believe in original sin, so I don't think we are born into it. I think each of us chooses if we will sin (go against God's will). It is fairly easy to tell what is sinful- if it builds up unconditional love and peace, it is good. If not, it is sinful. Humans choose to sin, but they could choose otherwise.
If God created man perfect and destroyed the Devil, would the world be like the way it is today? No.
Again, I don't think the Devil exists as the anti-god the way this seems to posit. I think the Adversary exists, and evil happens because people don't follow God's will. But I do not think God created an angelic being (the Devil) that fell from grace and is allowed to run amok on earth. I believe people should take full responsibility for their own sins and the evil things in the world and quit blaming a fallen angel for it. (I realize this is not orthodox belief in Christianity, but it is my belief.) The world would change if we would quit blaming original sin and the Devil and start changing the world according to Christ's teaching of how to behave.
I'm not sure what you mean by "creating man perfect." Perfection depends on your perspective. I believe God creating humanity perfectly able to choose good, and perfectly able to discern what is good. We are
able to choose otherwise, but that doesn't make His creation imperfect. It makes our choice imperfect.
Do you believe God knows everything?
Yes.
Quite frankly, it isn't your job here on earth to tell me what I should and should not believe. You aren't God or Christ, or the only person who has interpreted the Bible.
And if you do, then tell me if God knew a man was going to kill another why doesn't he prevent him?
Because
maybe (just maybe) God doesn't experience time and omniscience the way you assume He does. Time is not linear, you know? So the issue of cause/effect is not as simple as you seem to think it is. In our particular culture we
perceive time as linear and having clear cause/effect rules. But it doesn't in physics and it doesn't in various other cultures. And I'm pretty sure that my perspective on time isn't the same as God's.
God made sentient beings (humans, for example) to have the capacity to choose. If He prevented us from doing wrong, we would not have this capacity and so could not be held responsible for our actions.
That said, in the end, God's will is done. I have ideas about what this means, but I won't go into the details. Suffice it to say I do not think it means that God pulls the strings on every sentient being every moment. I think it is more that there is a Divine Plan, and this will happen no matter what choices we individually make.
If the Devil is decieving man why does God not get rid of him? You would say so we could resist him. But clearly not everyone does, so why bother?
First, I don't believe in a literal Devil. Second, I don't think the Devil decieves, I think Satan (in an adverserial role) tempts us to make wrong choices. Anyone seeking God (goodness, unconditional love, and peace) will not be turned away or deceived. So if we are deceived, we chose to be so because we were already intent on serving ourselves rather than God.
God doesn't get rid of this Adversary, this inner self-centeredness, because we are already full equipped with God's strength to overcome it if we choose to do so. God already vanquished the Adversary for us through Christ. We only have to embrace the gift and use it.
And you say not everyone does. But I say I cannot know others' hearts or what their afterlife is like. I tend to think all beings are able to repent and reunite with God as soon as they are ready, no matter how long it takes.
If two people are in a car and a tree falls on it and kills both inside, don't you think God knew it would happen? Are you telling me God didn't know man would kill Jesus?
Again, you're putting God into the same experience of time you have. I suggest you pick up "Einstein's Dreams"- a fascinating little novel- and get a physicist's perspective on all the ways time could be conceived of to work. This might help open up your perspective on what time may be like for a non-human being. Time is not linear.
God may know something will happen, but that does not mean God caused it to happen. Knowledge and causation are two different things.
Did God make us perfect? Oh that's right he tried but he failed...
Already answered this. I don't think God failed at anything. God is not responsible for our bad choices, since He gave us everything we need to make good choices.
Satan isn't doing God's will either...
Depends on how you view Satan. I suppose you view him in the orthodox way as an anti-god. I happen to think that is a warped way of interpreting a being that was quite different in Judaism, and therefore in early Christianity.
...The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life FROM the creation of the world..(Revelation 17:8)
Ignore this...God is writing this book as we speak...
Again, knowledge vs. causation. Two different things. Non-linear time. Etc.
God creates mankind, knowing most of the human population is going to Hell for all eternity, how cruel... Oh that's right he doesn't how naive...
No idea what you're talking about, and if you are saying these are my beliefs or yours. I abstain from judging others, so it isn't up to me to determine if some/most/any people are going where. My intuitive sense, from my experience of a God that is Love, is that all will eventually be saved.
I don't believe in a literal Hell. Or going anywhere for all of eternity. I don't have a lot of detailed beliefs in the afterlife. It's just not my focus. I trust God will put each being where it is best for them.
God didn't know the Snake was in that garden, he had no other place to put that tree of knowledge either, God is gullible as he seemed to think Adam and Eve would listen to him...
Again, I can't tell if these are your beliefs or assumptions you have about mine. I don't interpret Genesis literally. And again, I don't think knowledge is the same thing as causation.
Revelation was written by some wacko who thought he could predict the future and Jesus just got lucky when he said someone would portray him...Why didn't Jesus tell Judas what he would do, maybe he could have been saved him...Oh well he is rotting in Hell now anyway...
Clarification, again, would be helpful. No idea where all this is coming from. I think Revelation was a book that actually referred to the time of persecution of early Christians, but has spiritual truth for us today as we face times of suffering and social ills. I don't read Revelation literally as a divination of the future, no. Even if one did, it requires a ton of interpretation and I've heard dozens and dozens of different interpretations. So obviously no one has a real handle on its true meaning.
Jesus did tell Judas what he would do. You might review the account of the Last Supper.
I don't make any judgment whatsoever about Judas. I pray that all those who cause great suffering will eventually repent and be saved. "Forgive them, for they know not what they do..." Doesn't mean I think they could not have made another choice, but rather that I pray they eventually do make another choice.
That's what people in Hell are feeling...
On that we agree, because I think hell is simply (and horrifically) separation from God. However, I don't think hell is any more eternal than one chooses it to be. God is always there, waiting.
Your idea of God is depressing... In fact it is Evil...
OK, whatever you say. My experience of God has been incredibly uplifting, joyful, peaceful, and loving. I fail to see how that is depressing, but to each their own. As for evil, I fail to see how, since my experience of God is such that each person has within them the light of God, the capacity to choose goodness and to love, and God is Love. Basically, my experience of God is that He gives grace freely, and is always waiting with His arms open for us to embrace Him. If that's evil in your eyes, I'm not sure what goodness would be.
As you seem to think Hitler is in Hell right now...Cursing God for even making him...(as many in "Hell" would) Oh well they had a choice, but they blew it!
Um, no. What I said was that Hitler chose evil things consistently, and others do not. But if Hitler had no free will, then he cannot be held responsible for his actions. So therefore he (and his actions) would be just as good as those that alleviate rather than cause suffering.
I made no mention of what happened to Hitler. I don't believe in eternal hell, and I don't believe in judging what happens to other people. I pray that people who choose to cause suffering, like Hitler, eventually repent and become loving.
Our God "loves" us so he keeps a few and sends the rest to Hell, because apparently one "chooses" to spend the rest of eternity there suffering...
God sends us nowhere. We choose whether or not to separate ourselves from God. And no choice we make is for an eternity. It is only for as long as we choose it.
You seem to think God tells us to love our neighbour, but then condemns those that don't for the rest of all eternity...Isn't God supposed to set an example?
I believe God is Love. Unconditional love. But also perfect justice. God doesn't condemn anyone for eternity. We choose what we choose for as long as we choose it. God gave us the example of Jesus as a Divine life, of what humanity should aspire to be- completely loving, completely just.
I believe God waits for us indefinitely, but He will not force us (choose for us, cause us) to come to Him. We do this when we choose to. My suspicion is that eventually we
all choose to. But I am not God, so I don't really know.
