There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

I wonder, which is the better chess player: the one who is able to respond perfectly to whatever move his opponent makes, or the one who only plays opponents who make the moves he tells them to make?
 
rogertutt said:
I'm a theistic fatalist.
I believe in theistic absolute determinism, i.e. God's fulfillment of His decretive will which is that which MUST occur.

I believe everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our efforts to assist it, or prevent it from happening.
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What influences God's will?

rogertutt said:
I believe that God has a plan that will eradicate all evil and suffering from existence after He has used them to teach all the lesson He wants everyone to learn.
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Are we forced to learn, or do we learn from our own accord? If we are forced to learn, why do some of us still not 'get it'?
 
mattityahu said:
I wonder, which is the better chess player: the one who is able to respond perfectly to whatever move his opponent makes, or the one who only plays opponents who make the moves he tells them to make?
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In both cases the strongest sets of influences will dicatate what happens.
 
Dondi said:
What influences God's will?
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Isaiah 46:9,10

Are we forced to learn, or do we learn from our own accord? If we are forced to learn, why do some of us still not 'get it'?
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I think that sooner or later everyone will "get it." Depending on the unique sets of experiences that God wants each unique individual to be invloved in.
 
mattityahu said:
Right, but which is the better player?
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"Better" is a perception is it not?

Can you explain the relevance of your question as it relates to the issue of so-called "free will?"
I can't figure out what you are getting at. Thanks :confused:
 
My point is that a God who can accomplish his plans and purposes without having to impose absolute determinism on his creatures is a much wiser, more sovereign God than one who does.
 
mattityahu said:
My point is that a God who can accomplish his plans and purposes without having to impose absolute determinism on his creatures is a much wiser, more sovereign God than one who does.
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"Wiser" is also a perception is it not?

For me your conclusion is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest influence all of the time.
 
rodgertutt said:
"Wiser" is also a perception is it not?

For me your conclusion is rendered irrelevant by the fact that we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest influence all of the time.
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I think/perceive/believe the former God is wiser than the latter. Don't you? Why not?
 
mattityahu said:
My point is that a God who can accomplish his plans and purposes without having to impose absolute determinism on his creatures is a much wiser, more sovereign God than one who does.
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Is love that is not freely given truly love? What could be more precious (and real!) to an omnipotent being than receiving such a gift that is not dependent upon this being's omnipotence?
 
mattityahu said:
I think/perceive/believe the former God is wiser than the latter. Don't you? Why not?
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God has locked all of us up in a lifetime of making choices that can ONLY be made in the direction of the strongest influence. Our final decision in making any choice is dependant on whether or not the influence is having the strongest impression on our mind at the time that we make the choice.

Since this is true, I don't think we have a right to call God not as wise as the way we would have done things.
 
seattlegal said:
Is love that is not freely given truly love? What could be more precious (and real!) to an omnipotent being than receiving such a gift that is not dependent upon this being's omnipotence?
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We love Him because He first loved us.

Sooner or later Jesus will demonstrate to all fallen creatures just how much He loves them by saving them all from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn wills that temporarily prefer to choose sinning.

Copy and paste into Google

IS MAN A FREE MORAL AGENT?
 
rodgertutt said:
We love Him because He first loved us.

Sooner or later Jesus will demonstrate to all fallen creatures just how much He loves them by saving them all from everything from which they need to be saved, including their stubborn wills that temporarily prefer to choose sinning.
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Ah-ha! So man does have a will that is free to choose!
 
seattlegal said:
Ah-ha! So man does have a will that is free to choose!
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The only freeedom anyone has is to choose in the direction of the STRONGEST influence.

If you had read the contents of the link at
IS MAN A FREE MORAL AGENT?
you would have understood why I believe that sooner or later God will convince us of His love that will not let anyone go. And this convincing will in fact become the STRONGEST influence in the life of every individual and will engulf their will with an overwhelming conviction of His love that is truely heart felt, not just an intellectual statement like "God is Love," and it will CAUSE us all to likewise respond to Him with love too.
 
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seattlegal said:
Not interested, but thank you anyways.
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You are welcome, anyways. :)

I wonder if you realize that you are "not interested" because the strongest sets of influences in your life are CAUSING you to not be interested?
 
rodgertutt said:
You are welcome, anyways. :)

I wonder if you realize that you are "not interested" because the strongest sets of influences in your life are CAUSING you to not be interested?
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Hey, while it might be fun to speculate about what is going on in my heart and mind, if you ever do figure it out, please let me know. :)
 
rodgertutt said:
You are welcome, anyways. :)

I wonder if you realize that you are "not interested" because the strongest sets of influences in your life are CAUSING you to not be interested?
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This line of reasoning only works because it's impossible to say, either way, how our decisions are made. The mind is much too complicated, and there are far too many variables to take into account. It reminds me of Michael Crichton's simplified rendition of chaos theory in Jurrasic Park: a butterfly flaps its wings in one place, and it changes the weather in another, because it adds to the influences that cause weather. It could be true; it could also not be true, and there is no way of proving either side beyond a reasonable doubt. From a scientific point of view, that is.

However, does this line of reasoning hold up from a Biblical point of view? Is there any wisdom from either testament that indicates that our decisions are imposed upon us by our environment? It seems to me that the entire concept of needing forgiveness rests on the assumption that we are accountable for our actions, but how can we be accountable if we have no control? Predetermination takes control away; we become receivers rather than actors, and our responses are those which are, in a sense, pre-programmed into our minds at the time we are created. Thus, all responsibility for our actions rests with creator, does it not? How can God require repentence for actions that we had no control over?

I have a son. He's two years old, and he loves to play. I have noticed that there are two kinds of toys on the market today: those that children play with, and those that play by themselves. For example, there are many elaborate toys that you turn on and watch; they light up, play music, move across the floor, etc. You don't actually play with them, though; the toy fulfills its purpose, and the child observes. Then there is the other kind of toy-- a set of blocks, for example. Put the blocks on the ground and they do absolutely nothing; it's up to the child to make something out of them. The same with, say, a doll house and dolls, or a soccer ball. I try to buy this kind of toy for my son, because there is much more value in playing with a toy than there is in watching one. The same is true for predetermination: though I don't know, I firmly believe that much more is to be gained in creating a thinking being that makes decisions and learns along the way, than in creating an automaton that simply reacts to its environment. For this reason, I can't possibly believe that God did not give us free will.
 
Marsh said:
This line of reasoning only works because it's impossible to say, either way, how our decisions are made. The mind is much too complicated, and there are far too many variables to take into account. It reminds me of Michael Crichton's simplified rendition of chaos theory in Jurrasic Park: a butterfly flaps its wings in one place, and it changes the weather in another, because it adds to the influences that cause weather. It could be true; it could also not be true, and there is no way of proving either side beyond a reasonable doubt. From a scientific point of view, that is.

However, does this line of reasoning hold up from a Biblical point of view? Is there any wisdom from either testament that indicates that our decisions are imposed upon us by our environment? It seems to me that the entire concept of needing forgiveness rests on the assumption that we are accountable for our actions, but how can we be accountable if we have no control? Predetermination takes control away; we become receivers rather than actors, and our responses are those which are, in a sense, pre-programmed into our minds at the time we are created. Thus, all responsibility for our actions rests with creator, does it not? How can God require repentence for actions that we had no control over?

I have a son. He's two years old, and he loves to play. I have noticed that there are two kinds of toys on the market today: those that children play with, and those that play by themselves. For example, there are many elaborate toys that you turn on and watch; they light up, play music, move across the floor, etc. You don't actually play with them, though; the toy fulfills its purpose, and the child observes. Then there is the other kind of toy-- a set of blocks, for example. Put the blocks on the ground and they do absolutely nothing; it's up to the child to make something out of them. The same with, say, a doll house and dolls, or a soccer ball. I try to buy this kind of toy for my son, because there is much more value in playing with a toy than there is in watching one. The same is true for predetermination: though I don't know, I firmly believe that much more is to be gained in creating a thinking being that makes decisions and learns along the way, than in creating an automaton that simply reacts to its environment. For this reason, I can't possibly believe that God did not give us free will.
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I respect your inability to not believe in free will.

But IMHO all of your reasonings are rendered irrelevant by the stubborn fact that we always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest influence all of the time.
It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer. The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it at least slightly more than other influences.

We do share one thing in common with robots and that is causality. Just like in a robot, everything we believe and do is the product of a "strongest-influence" cause.

The idea that it wouldn't be right for God to punish us for something we can't help doing is only an ethical opinion that is also rendered irrelevant by the fact that we ALWAYS choose in the direction of the strongest influence.

The fact is we will be unable to "repent" until a strong enough influence, i.e. God, lays hold on us by His grace and CAUSES us to repent.
 
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