There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[shawn]

The following fact is "irrevocably true" in every "context of reality."

Our will was not "free" to choose any set of influences that were not the STRONGEST on our mind to choose. We HAD to choose what we chose when we chose it at that particular point in time.

Free willers claim that, notwithstanding the fact that we did choose as we chose, we nonetheless could have chosen otherwise? That is absolutely false everywhere, all of the time.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

You don't really read things which go against the grain of your pet beliefs do you.
Your fact is not irrevocably true in every context of reality.
In fact it is not a fact at all.
It is a belief which you have perceived and then believed to be true.

Just take that stance on it and you will not get so much opposition.
It is your belief, fine. That we can accept and either discuss or not depending on our wont.
If you try to stuff it into our minds as absolute fact we will just discount you as delusional and quite obsessed.
You cannot force people to believe.

 

[citizenzen]

I didn't say "I know this to be true."

Now you really don't want me to go through and show you the posts where you denied this was a matter of faith and insisted it was true, do you?

Because I will you know... if you force me.

 

[rodgertutt]

If you try to stuff it into our minds as absolute fact we will just discount you as delusional and quite obsessed.
You cannot force people to believe.

You are quite right that "I cannot force people to believe."
Instead, just guide interested people to writings that explain why I believe like I do and let them decide for themselves.

IS MAN A FREE MORAL AGENT?
http://www.godfire.net/eby/freeagent.htm

 

[rodgertutt]

Now you really don't want me to go through and show you the posts where you denied this was a matter of faith and insisted it was true, do you?
Because I will you know... if you force me.

Of course I insist it is true because that is my perception, and I have yet to encounter an argument that persuades me it is not true.
But I have encountered many arguments that keep me convinced it is true, arguments like the ones in the following link

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HisAchievement/HisAchievement016.html

 

[rodgertutt]

And here's another link that persuades me
FREE MORAL AGENCY
moral.html

 

[citizenzen]

I didn't say "I know this to be true."

Oh really? Let's take a look back at the thread. Funny thing, these forums... they actually record the conversation.

That is your theory. Do you have any actual, practical observations to back this up? (Other than the assertations that merely exist in your mind? Is there any proof of its validity outside the realm of theory and speculation?)

It's not a theory. It's a stubborn fact, the logic of which cannot be refuted as it just sits there in all of the power of it's self-evidence.

In fact, you cannot prove or say that every action you take is predetermined. You are making a guess.

Nope, no guessing.
We always, without exception, choose in the direction of the strongest influence all of the time.

...it is simply impossible for me to choose what I do not prefer. The fact that I choose it proves that I prefer it at least slightly more than other influences that are almost just as strong.

Same thing is true for everyone else too.

How is it that you are so sure of how every human who ever existed thinks?

The reason I am so sure is because everyone always chooses what is, as Einstein puts it, the combination of "internal and external influences."
Therefore there is no such a thing as free will.

These are just some of many instances where you said, "I know this to be true." and not just for yourself, but for everybody.

Okay, Bill Clinton... I mean rodgertutt... any other statements you'd care to deny you made? Remember, it's recorded.

 

[rodgertutt]

Oh really? Let's take a look back at the thread. Funny thing, these forums... they actually record the conversation.

Yes, it is true that I am "sure" that I am right based on the fact that I have yet to encounter an argument that refutes the determinist position.
No argument on this thread has done that.

I assert that everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our efforts to assist it, or prevent it from happening.

Since you think what you perceive as a "false premise" is a pivitol issue for you in proving us determinists wrong I am repeating this post.

Here is why I do not think Jim's "premise" is false.

When you insist that you did not HAVE to choose the way you did, you are insisting that you were not caused to do it. That's what Jim Coram means by you thinking that you were "not caused" to do it.

But you were caused to do it. In fact it is not even possible that you could not have chosen what you perceived that you wanted to choose the MOST at that point in time.

"Within the confines of cause and necessity lurks the opportunity to choose our very next step" ONLY in the direction of the choice that we have concluded that we wanted to make the MOST at that point in time.
Our will was not "free" to choose any set of influences that were not the STRONGEST on our mind to choose. We HAD to choose what we chose when we chose it.

Free willers claim that, notwithstanding the fact that we did choose as we chose, we nonetheless could have chosen otherwise?
That is absolutely false.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

 

[shawn]

That is absolutely false.

Only false within the confines of your theoretical ideas...to you and those of like mind.

I get it that you are convinced, and that you wish to discuss it as it is important to you.
But the arguments which you have presented and the ideas you keep repeating dozens of times.... ad nauseum, have not convinced me that you are right at all.
Far from it.
In fact the way which you have gone about presenting this idea has quite turned me from being the least bit intrigued or concerned.
Good job m8.

 

[rodgertutt]

the arguments which you have presented and the ideas you keep repeating dozens of times.... ad nauseum, have not convinced me that you are right at all.

And I, of course, say the same thing right backatcha.
That's exactly what I think of your arguments too.

IMO the determinist position is irrefutable, and it will remain so in my mind until someone can produce convincing evidence to the contrary.

So I repeat, "Free willers claim that, notwithstanding the fact that we did choose as we chose, we nonetheless could have chosen otherwise?
That is absolutely false.

You chose what you chose because the reasons for choosing what you chose CAUSED you to prefer that choice the MOST.
At that point in time it was impossible to choose anything else.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

 

[Marsh]

The following fact is "irrevocably true" in every "context of reality."

Our will was not "free" to choose any set of influences that were not the STRONGEST on our mind to choose. We HAD to choose what we chose when we chose it at that particular point in time.

Free willers claim that, notwithstanding the fact that we did choose as we chose, we nonetheless could have chosen otherwise? That is absolutely false everywhere, all of the time.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

Hmmmm.... I'm getting the feeling that I may have to stand in line before it's my turn to kick you in the sack

 

[rodgertutt]

Hmmmm.... I'm getting the feeling that I may have to stand in line before it's my turn to kick you in the sack

I'm 71. You wouldn't do that to an old guy, would you?

My sack might hurt awhile.

But my determinist arguments would remain unscathed.

And I would have you arrested for "senior abuse."

That just might be the strongest influence that would CAUSE you not to do it again.

Hoo nose eh?

 

[Marsh]

I'm 71. You wouldn't do that to an old guy, would you?

If I had free will, I wouldn't. However, since I don't have free will, I am unable to give you an answer on this subject.

By the way, why did you even ask me that question? If there really is no free will, it makes absolutely no sense to ask such a question.

 

[citizenzen]

I'd apologize for repeating myself, but it seems to be acceptable in this thread.

Rodger, I have to return to the question of what does your belief do for you? How do you apply it in life? It feels like a unnecessary philosophical appendage, one that could be lopped off without consequence with one quick stroke of Occam's razor.

Every day we make decisions. Every day we are held accountable for those decisions by those around us. Our value as a friend, partner, co-worker and society member is judged based upon our ability to make sound choices and to improve those choices when they are found lacking. Even if it were true, that the choices we made were the only choices we could make, it doesn't for a moment change how we make those choices or the fact that they have to be made. So I, and others equally befuddled by your words, have little idea even after scores of posts what benefit could possibly come from adopting your beliefs.

Our frustration arises because over the course of hundreds of posts you haven't been able to articulate this benefit and have instead chose to try to bludgeon your message with incessant repetition. Even you have to realize how annoying that tactic is... and yet you persist. If your goal was to drive us away from determinism then you could consider yourself a success.

So, what is your goal Rodger? And why do you pursue it in a way that almost guarantees your failure? BTW, I think I get the part about strong influences... so I don't think you have to repeat that part again... I'm looking for something a little deeper than that.

 

[rodgertutt]

If I had free will, I wouldn't. However, since I don't have free will, I am unable to give you an answer on this subject.

Your non-free "will" will only give me an answer if the strongest influence on your mind CAUSES you to WANT to give me an answer MORE than not wanting to give me an answer.

By the way, why did you even ask me that question? If there really is no free will, it makes absolutely no sense to ask such a question.

It makes perfect sense to ask such a queston, because if the strongest influence on your mind CAUSES you to want to ask me, more than not wanting to ask me, you WILL in fact ask me that question, not because your will is "free," but because the strongest influence on your mind CAUSED you to ask it.

 

[rodgertutt]

Rodger, I have to return to the question of what does your belief do for you? How do you apply it in life?
Our frustration arises because over the course of hundreds of posts you haven't been able to articulate this benefit

WHAT MY BELIEF DOES FOR ME AND HOW I APPLY IT IN LIFE.

It enables me to relax in the confidence that no will can defeat God's intention to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it temporarily prevailed.

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL - A.P. ADAMS
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html

I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.

I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and seemingly unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILL, and He will not fail to do so.

I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from evil and suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do, e.g. THE "GOLDEN RULE."

All evil eventually leads to good, however, God is the only One Who can do this. He created evil (Isaiah 45:7), to provide the contrast for good. When all good is revealed, then evil will be abolished from God’s universe—forever.

I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation.

Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by Christian universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe. I've had it memorized for many years and love to quote it frequently.

“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”


I LOVE THAT QUOTE!

 

[rodgertutt]

BTW the same A.P. Adams who wrote THE PURPOSE OF EVIL referred to in my last post, also wrote FREE MORAL AGENCY?
moral.html
which is a good writing explaining the practical benefits of being able to believe in determinism.

 

[citizenzen]

WHAT MY BELIEF DOES FOR ME AND HOW I APPLY IT IN LIFE.

It enables me to relax in the confidence that no will can defeat God's intention to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it temporarily prevailed.

Okay. I can dig that. But I think you need to take it one step further. Not everyone here believes in God or "evil". It's no problem if you do... but that's a matter of faith and not "reality".

I don't have to believe that Jesus Christ is the savior to understand the value of "turning the other cheek" or the "golden rule". I don't have to be Buddhist to understand the value of the "eight-fold path". Some philosophies transcend the limits of their faith. But your philosophy seems rooted in its faith: I have to believe in God and I have to believe in evil in order to find comfort or inspiration in its words.

That's why many people have had such a problem with it here at IO. It isn't a philosophy that can span the differences between religions, it is instead a philosophy that forces others to take on your faith in order to find value in its teachings.

 

[bob x]

the strongest influence on your mind CAUSES you to WANT to give me an answer MORE than not wanting to give me an answer.

It is illegitimate to use the word "CAUSES" here, since the relative "strengths" of the influences do not exist until AFTER the choice is made (at least, as you have defined "strongest"; there are measures of strength which exist before, but those fail to determine which choice will be made).

 

[rodgertutt]

your philosophy seems rooted in its faith: I have to believe in God and I have to believe in evil in order to find comfort or inspiration in its words.

What makes you say that?
I don't think that I have ever even inferred that anyone has to believe in God and evil.

That's why many people have had such a problem with it here at IO. It isn't a philosophy that can span the differences between religions, it is instead a philosophy that forces others to take on your faith in order to find value in its teachings.

I'm presenting the determinist position from a universalist Christian point of view. But, IMO you don't have be a universalist Christian to benefit from it.

The strongest influence on your mind (not your "free" will), will dictate whether or not you believe in God and evil.

For me there is a difference between "being sure" that I am right, and "knowing" that I am right.
I'm "sure" that I am right about determinism because I have yet to find an argument that persuades me that I might be wrong.
But I admit that no one can "know" for sure that they are right.

 

[rodgertutt]

It is illegitimate to use the word "CAUSES" here, since the relative "strengths" of the influences do not exist until AFTER the choice is made (at least, as you have defined "strongest"; there are measures of strength which exist before, but those fail to determine which choice will be made).

I completely disagree.

The REASONS why you finally made the choice that you did make were the CAUSE of you making that choice.

It was not even possible that you could not have made that choice, because the REASONS that caused you to prefer to make that choice the MOST rather than any other choice --- those "reasons" CAUSED you to make that choice.