citizenzen
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ESS GEE! WHERE U B?!
I missed you.
I missed you.
There is no such thing as 'Free Will'
- Thread starter Azure24
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R
rodgertutt
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ESS GEE! WHERE U B?!
I missed you.
Who is ESS GEE?
bob x
Well-Known Member
S G = Seattle Gal
R
rodgertutt
Guest
Thanks, I've dialoged with her before but I can't remember on what forum, or even about the subject.
One of the drawbacks of being 71 I guess.
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citizenzen
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Uhhh... it was this forum... and this subject.
And the "positive" side is that even after missing so many posts she probably feels like she picked up right where she left off.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
I don't necessarily agree with Martin Luther.
"Real, genuine love" will conquer all wills and sooner or later will ellicit a loving response from everyone.
Agreed. Buddhism says basically the same thing in Dhammapadda 1:5:
5. For hatred does not cease by hatred at any time: hatred ceases by love, this is an old rule.
Chanting it over and aver again will not magically make it true.
I don't necessarily agree with A.P. Adams, either.
Just as we have the opportunity to resist the temptations of the flesh with the help of the Spirit, we also have the opportunity to resist the Holy Spirit:
God has put aside God's Almightiness in this respect--otherwise we would not be able to resist the Holy Spirit. (Love must have free-will as a component in order to be genuine)
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
ESS GEE! WHERE U B?!
I missed you.
I B around and about, and have been working on a long term project.
Dream
Well-Known Member
That is good to hear.I B around and about, and have been working on a long term project.
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rodgertutt
Guest
Divine love, sooner or later, will overwhelm the will so that it will only be "free" to return that love in kind.
WHAT GOD’S LOVE IS REALLY LIKE
God is Love
LOVE DIVINE - by D. Buchanan
“FROM the lips of love's apostle, exiled for love on Patmos' lonely isle, there sounds out in the saying, "God is Love," the most concise and comprehensive utterance in all language, the most sublime declaration of truth by mortals ever heard. These three one-syllable words reveal the character of God and make it to be known that behind things, as the source and fountain-head from which they spring, there throbs the one great heart of infinite, unchanging love.
Although, to finite understanding, life may meanwhile seem a tangled skein, and providence a confusion, yet when all the processes of Love have run their course, then it will be seen that the history of the ages, the story of the race, can be written with one small word, the term of infinite fullness that tells us what God is.
"God is Light" and "God is Love." Light, in passing through a prism, is separated into its component parts and appears as the seven colors of the rainbow. Each separate shade is a manifestation of light, and, although no one color in itself is light, yet without it light would not be what it is. So, too, the invisible love-light of Deity, passing through the prism of divine providence, appears as mercy, as righteousness, as goodness, as power. The operation of each attribute is a manifestation of love, and although no one quality in itself is love, yet without it, love would not be what it is. As the blue is in contrast to the red in the rainbow hues, so righteousness is to mercy in the spectrum of love. When the mercy manifestation of itself accomplishes God's purpose, then mercy is glad that righteousness was not required, for "mercy rejoiceth against judgment." Yet the heart that moves the mercy hand is the same heart that, if need be, moves the judgment hand, and that heart is God, and God is Love.
God loves just because He is Love, yet Love's hope in loving is to create and call forth love; hence Love's victory is love reciprocated, love returned. So it is that Love, mingling mercy with righteousness, moves ever on, longsuffering and kind, but failing never, until at length every creature heart will respond in fullness, to love unbounded and divine.
And when, at length, humanity, redeemed, ransomed, transformed by the divine from which it sprang, has thus taken on the likeness of Love's perfect Man, the Man of Galilee and Golgotha, then Love, the Alpha, will likewise have become the Omega of all things, the atmosphere in which we live and move and have our being, and the universe will be flooded with divine affection.”
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rodgertutt
Guest
As I mentioned on a different thread, Ray Prinzing is my non-divine hero and mentor.
All of his writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google.
I like Ray’s illustration of God’s love that will not fail to eventually achieve a loving response from everyone.
A young man woos the girl he loves by continually speaking to her of his love for her and bringing her gift after gift for week after week and month after month until she becomes convinced that his love for her is a life-long love, and so she eventually responds by giving him her love in return.
If the young man gives up trying to convince her of his love for her he has lost everything.
But if he never gives up until she agrees to marry him, then he goes to her house, gathers up all the gifts he gave her, AND HER, and takes them all back to his place for the rest of their lives.
It may be true that human love may never be able to achieve a loving response.
But God’s love is not hampered by the fallible limitations of human love.
Ray Prinzing wrote,
“Then the universe shall be made anew
Greater far than before the fall
When the Son puts all in the Father’s hand
And our God shall be All in all.”
All of his writings can be accessed by typing his name into Google.
I like Ray’s illustration of God’s love that will not fail to eventually achieve a loving response from everyone.
A young man woos the girl he loves by continually speaking to her of his love for her and bringing her gift after gift for week after week and month after month until she becomes convinced that his love for her is a life-long love, and so she eventually responds by giving him her love in return.
If the young man gives up trying to convince her of his love for her he has lost everything.
But if he never gives up until she agrees to marry him, then he goes to her house, gathers up all the gifts he gave her, AND HER, and takes them all back to his place for the rest of their lives.
It may be true that human love may never be able to achieve a loving response.
But God’s love is not hampered by the fallible limitations of human love.
Ray Prinzing wrote,
“Then the universe shall be made anew
Greater far than before the fall
When the Son puts all in the Father’s hand
And our God shall be All in all.”
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
You might want to consider "the son(s) of perdition," there. (2 Thess. 2, John 17, Hebrews 10, 2 Peter 3, Rev 17, etc.)
I like how Jeremiah 31:31-34 says it. I dunno why, but I seem to do better working directly with the scriptures than with anyone else's interpretation of them. *shrugs*
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rodgertutt
Guest
"Considering" THE SON OF PERDITION
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
Bible Threatenings Explained
Scroll down and click on THE SON OF PERDITION
Depends on what you mean by "better."
"Working directly with the scriptures"
DOES THE SCRIPTURES TEACH UNIVERSAL SALVATION?
UNIVERSAL SALVATION UNIVERSITY
Understanding Universal Salvation Part One
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rodgertutt
Guest
SOONER OR LATER DIVINE LOVE WILL CONQUER ALL WILLS
THERE IS NO SUCH A THING AS "FREE" WILL
Of all the choiced you ever made, it was absolutely imposible that you could have made any other choice than the one you determined you preferred MOST after considering all the REASONS why you decided to make that choice.
You chose what you chose because the reasons for choosing what you chose CAUSED you to prefer that choice the MOST.
At that point in time it was impossible to choose anything else.
A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, you might have had other reasons why you would not make that choice.
But AT THAT PARTICULAR SPLIT SECOND IN TIME, the choice you made was the only one you possibly could have made based on your evaluation of what choice you perceived you preferred to make AT THAT TIME.
"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Untrue. There are plenty of times when I have mindlessly made a selection that I did not choose to make.
So my mindless, erroneous actions I have done were due to part of my subconscious mind really wanting to do them?
Really?“In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; In practice, there is”
~Chuck Reid
~Chuck Reid
Methinks your theory will not stand up to empirical testing. Do you have any empirical evidence to back up your theory?
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
This argument would then nullify the scripture about resisting the Holy Spirit. I think I'll take the scripture over the argument.
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rodgertutt
Guest
So my mindless, erroneous actions I have done were due to part of my subconscious mind really wanting to do them?
Actions prompted by your emotions ("mindless") are just as much the product of the STRONGEST influences that CAUSED you to make that choice, and made it impossible for you to make any other choice at that specific split-second in time.
"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
R
rodgertutt
Guest
Of course we can resist the Holy Spirit.
According to God's plan for us a unique individuals, God's grace can temporarily be resisted to teach us lessons. But God's grace can NEVER be defeated.
I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
biblical studies: The Problem of Evil and the Judgments of God - Contents
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rodgertutt
Guest
The "evidence" I have to back up my belief in determinism is the fact that no one has been able to give me an argument that convinces me it is not true.
But here is an argument that convinces me that determinism is true.
Due to influences from within and without, a man may well change in the next moment from what he is in the present moment, but in any certain moment his deeds are simply the outflowings of his heart (Prov.4:23b). They reflect what is presently choice to him; that is, they constitute his true preferences, however excellent, or awful, they may be.
Though we do what we want, according to our own choice, and therefore act voluntarily, we cannot always want what we want. That is, we cannot truly want, in a decisive sense, what we want, simply in an abstract sense, so long as there are other things that we want more, in a decisive sense, than we want the ideals for which we abstractly long.
Of course what those who advocate “free will” actually mean to stand for by means of this expression is the notion that men have the power of contrary choice: Even though, in fact, we chose as we did, we could have chosen otherwise. That is, we could have done so at that time. It is not contended (nor is it disputed) that, hypothetically and by itself, we might have chosen otherwise. That is not the idea at all. Instead, it is claimed that, notwithstanding the fact that we did choose as we chose, we nonetheless could have chosen otherwise.
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE
A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, you might have had other reasons why you would not make that choice.
But AT THAT PARTICULAR SPLIT SECOND IN TIME, the choice you made was the only one you possibly could have made based on either your "mindless emotions," or on the evaluation of what choice you perceived you preferred MOST to make AT THAT POINT IN TIME.
"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
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seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Ahh, so my mindless choices actually were according to something hidden within my subconscious mind.
It is true that we sometimes have mistaken cravings--we substitute one choice for something else that we truly want. (Hungry Ghost behavior)
Your argument only highlights that one choice can manifest at a particular moment. Your explanation for the process of selection is based only upon assumptions, however. It is the process of selection that is the crux of free choice, so your argument really does not address free will.
Again, this is based upon assumptions, and not on real data. There is no solid base for your argument to rest upon.
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rodgertutt
Guest
What I said was that your "mindless" choice was a product of your overwhelming emotions, not your reasonings. In either case you HAD to make that choice at that particlular split second in time.
A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, you might have had other reasons why you would not make that choice.
But AT THAT PARTICULAR SPLIT SECOND IN TIME, the choice you made was the only one you possibly could have made based on either your "overwhelming mindless emotions," or on the evaluation of what choice you perceived you preferred MOST to make AT THAT POINT IN TIME.
"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
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