Trinity

[Thomas]

Hi James —

I am/was simply suggesting that it is a pointless endevour to attempt to change minds when only God has that power. You are free to state your view, just as I am free to state mine. It is when we attempt to make others view it our way that argument begins - It was a cautionary statement, that is all, o.k?

Then Jesus should have known better when He said "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." Matthew 28:19-20

That teaching office was given by Jesus to the Apostles (cf Mark 15:16, Luke 24:45-50, John 21:24), and passed by them to their successors, 'even to the consummation of the world'.

Thomas

 

[Gatekeeper]

Hi Gatekeeper —

What always astounds me is the readinless to assert that because I don't understand something, it cannot be understood.

Do we understand the nature of God? No. Do we not believe in Him then ... No.

I'm not suggesting that just because 'I' don't understand, that you can't either. Seems I remember reading that the trinity cannot be explained, or entirely understood, tho. I might be mistaken, but not too many will claim to understand the trinity completely.

Do I know the entirety of God? No! Do I believe in God? Of course I do, I just don't believe that Jesus was God incarnate. You do believe this, but how can you 'know' w/o a shadow of a doubt? The point I have been making is that you cannot - it is impossible. You can [understand] it to be this way [In mind] but in 'reality' you simply do not, nor can know for sure. I'm surprised you would even attempt to argue this....

Just being realistic, bro. You understand, or rather believe that Jesus was God incarnate, but this simply cannot be known - not with certainty.

I have no problem with others claiming that they understand Jesus to be God - It becomes a problem when some attempt to tell me that He must be viewed in this manner to be saved. You can believe what you wish, even with all your heart, but this doesn't change the 'fact' that we know very little about Jesus' divinity.

I have read many of the early writings of the church fathers. I have read many things, Thomas - Nag Hammadi texts, early hermetc writings, the Quaran, bits and pieces of Buddist philosophy, etc. They all claim something as truth, and many of them make a great deal of sense, but there is only [one] truth, so for now - I'll rely on a spiritual leading, and will weigh my ever evolving views with scripture.

I will however, 'listen' to others in hope that some day I 'might' understand what so many already seem to undestand. I'll not hold my breath, tho. Not when it comes to something as monumental as viewing Jesus as God incarnate. That's a pretty big step, and not a step I wish to take with haste - [Egg shells beneath my feet]

Listen, I believe Jesus had a divine nature [I believe it] what I don't believe is that He was God in the flesh. I simply don't subscribe to the Nicene creed. I do not, nor can I view Jesus as God [At this time]. I could very well be wrong, but so could you, and that is the reality of this discussion.

You assume too much, Thomas. I don't look to be 'enlightened' at all, only lead out of the darkness. Besides, no man has the ability to enlighten another. All we can do is lead to the best of our ability, and God will do the rest.

Do you know w/o a doubt that Jesus was God? I mean do 'really' know? How? Because of what the church leaders wrote, or is it more of a belief than actual knowledge? I'm hoping for a little honesty, btw...

We learn throughout our entire lives - We cannot be told to learn - We just do. [It is an inherent ability] We will never know everything, and that is just a plain fact - Just as it is a fact that we don't have all things right.


Love

James

 

[Gatekeeper]

Hi James —


Then Jesus should have known better when He said "Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world." Matthew 28:19-20

That teaching office was given by Jesus to the Apostles (cf Mark 15:16, Luke 24:45-50, John 21:24), and passed by them to their successors, 'even to the consummation of the world'.

Thomas

There is a difference between teaching, and letting God make the change - We can't make others view things our way - espescially when our own knowledge is limited. We can teach what we think we understand, and believe that we are doing God's will, but we can't make others change thier minds via argument, or by force - Truth doesn't come by the hands of man, but by the Spirit of God.

James

 

[Thomas]

Truth doesn't come by the hands of man, but by the Spirit of God.

God moves in the depths of all things, in the logoi of things, dark and deep, unseen and anonymous, and any man can serve that God and be one with God, one with the unseen and anonymous ... but in Christ one moves from darkness to light — "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9 and cf Acts 18).

The call of Cornelius in Acts 10, is the Spirit leading the faithful seeker of God to the knowledge of God in the light of His teaching. In the same way St Paul was shown the darkness of his error, until at the hands of Ananias he, too, was brought into the light.

Father, Son, Spirit ... one in three, yet three as one, and all three in one.

Thomas

 

[Gatekeeper]

God moves in the depths of all things, in the logoi of things, dark and deep, unseen and anonymous, and any man can serve that God and be one with God, one with the unseen and anonymous ... but in Christ one moves from darkness to light — "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9 and cf Acts 18).

I can't say that I disagree with this at all, Thomas -

You know, my cousin is a Catholic, or rather he is leaning towards the Orthodoxy viewpoint, and we have had many conversations. Some fruitful, and others not so fruitful. But, I always seem to refer to you, and what you post on these boards, and what you have personally told me in the past.

I respect your views, and I respect you, and might even go as far as saying that I admire you for your intellect/understanding, but I don't adhere to everything you believe - It is the nature of doubt, and trying to search matters out for myself, as oppssed to simply accepting, ya know?

Anyway, I just thought you should know - I don't want any hard feelings over a disagreement. I'm sure you are above being offended by a non trinitarian anyway, but just so you know.....

Love

James

 

[Thomas]

That is a wholly unexpected and very generous and gracious comment, James, and I thank you for it, from the heart, more than you might know. In hope there is food for, and fruit of, thought on both sides, let us by your grace then withdraw in peace from this discussion.

Pray we part closer than when we met, and let our prayer of unity in Christ Jesus, in respect of your cousin, recall the Orthodox greeting of the Easter season: He is risen! He is risen indeed!

May His Word rise in us all.

Your friend and brother in Christ,

Thomas

 

[Gatekeeper]

That is a wholly unexpected and very generous and gracious comment, James, and I thank you for it, from the heart, more than you might know. In hope there is food for, and fruit of, thought on both sides, let us by your grace then withdraw in peace from this discussion.

Pray we part closer than when we met, and let our prayer of unity in Christ Jesus, in respect of your cousin, recall the Orthodox greeting of the Easter season: He is risen! He is risen indeed!

May His Word rise in us all.

Your friend and brother in Christ,

Thomas

Thank you, Thomas ...

Love & blessings

James a.k.a - Your friend, and brother in Christ

 

[mee]

For a consideration of the rules of Greek grammar that apply to John 1:1, see pages 26-9 of the brochure Should You Believe in the Trinity? published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Should You Believe in the Trinity?
Answers such questions as: What is the Trinity? Does the Bible teach it? Is Jesus Christ the Almighty God and part of the Trinity? What is the holy spirit, and how does it function? Illustrated.



i think its on the part about trinity prove texts
I

 

[Quahom1]

For a consideration of the rules of Greek grammar that apply to John 1:1, see pages 26-9 of the brochure Should You Believe in the Trinity? published by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Should You Believe in the Trinity?
Answers such questions as: What is the Trinity? Does the Bible teach it? Is Jesus Christ the Almighty God and part of the Trinity? What is the holy spirit, and how does it function? Illustrated.



i think its on the part about trinity prove texts
I

everything you say everything you preach is bull. How does that feel mee? Because I truly believe what I am saying.

hurts don't it. That is how others feel when you dish out the bull. You win no one over to your side when you do this. You are a "Christian"? Not from where I am standing. And if you are the true "christian", I want no part of Christianity...

Think about that.

Too bad you couldn't see me coming out from under the fig tree...

 

[17th Angel]

everything you say everything you preach is bull. How does that feel mee? Because I truly believe what I am saying.

And he, and you, and jack, and jim, and bill, and tom, and mike, and dick, and mary, and jane... They truly believe what they are saying... He simply says he doesn't agree/believe others faiths... But he certainly doesn't say what they believe is bull.... I have NEVER seen Mee, go down to name calling.

hurts don't it. That is how others feel when you dish out the bull.

(yes it hurts when you get -personal- and name calling.)

It hurts others when he shares his values and faith? Wow... If it hurts I guess we should all just believe the same thing... We best stop having our own opinions.

You are a "Christian"? Not from where I am standing.

That's your opinion. (JW are only one of the many groups of christians that believe not in the trinity.)

No idea why I replied to your post... It just seems like your attempting to dictate to him to cease his expression(although yeah his expression isn't that creative... but, we're working on that.) and thought, the most common issue people have with Mee is that he copies and pastes... But, it feels like your main issue with him is he differs from your chain of faith, specially when he speaks of the trinity... So yeah... I just felt like posting.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

JW are only one of the many groups of christians that believe not in the trinity.

Christianity does not consider jw's a christian denomination, but rather a cult. They are not a group of christians. If they do not believe in the trinity they are something else.

 

[17th Angel]

Christianity does not consider jw's a christian denomination, but rather a cult. They are not a group of christians. If they do not believe in the trinity they are something else.

Don't give me that cult crap... lol getting really tired of hearing that word used as some kind of exclusive "crazy bad guy group" You are a christian sir? Then you are in a cult... Look up the word, understand and learn what it means...

And if you believe in the trinity? Are you a pagan? (are you apart of that "cult" lol.)

I also, don't believe you have the right to say who is and who isn't a christian... who do you think you are? Christ? lol.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Don't give me that cult crap... lol getting really tired of hearing that word used as some kind of exclusive "crazy bad guy group" You are a christian sir? Then you are in a cult... Look up the word, understand and learn what it means...

And if you believe in the trinity? Are you a pagan (are you apart of that "cult" lol.)

I also, don't believe you have the right to say who is and who isn't a christian... who do you think you are? Christ? lol.

I am just vocalizing the mainstream beliefs of christianity. No need to take it personally out on me.

 

[17th Angel]

Sorry, if it seems personal...

Just cult means religion, religion means cult... I find it crazy how this has become a term to discriminate agaisnt faiths that differ to those of the person using the word.

And if we look at christianity surley it is safe to say that god/jesus will have the final say on who is and who isn't.....

Again, I am sorry if that seemed personal.

 

[mee]

Christianity does not consider jw's a christian denomination, but rather a cult. They are not a group of christians. If they do not believe in the trinity they are something else.

its a good job that Jesus regards JEHOVAHS WITNESSES as faithful to him MATTHEW 24;45-47


that is why he has given them Great responsibility, faithfulness leads to great blessings in more ways than one

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Sorry, if it seems personal...

Just cult means religion, religion means cult... I find it crazy how this has become a term to discriminate agaisnt faiths that differ to those of the person using the word.

And if we look at christianity surley it is safe to say that god/jesus will have the final say on who is and who isn't.....

Again, I am sorry if that seemed personal.

Yes, God judges the heart and knows those truly love him--he does have final say. And I believe there are those in any religion or no religion that love God with all their heart, but have been dealt bad cards in life that get in the way of knowing the true nature of God, unless the spirit speaks to them and they ignore Him or deny Him. Generally speaking, Chrisitianity believes that God is the Father, Son, and Holy spirit. Those that teach a different gospel than this but use some terminology and concepts but differ on the fundamentals of the Son of God also being the Word of God who is God who came to us as God in the flesh as Jesus Christ who is salvation and eternal life, these people are considered a cult, whether you like it or not, or we agree that it is not right to label them that, it will not change the mainstream beliefs that jw's are a cult and not christianity in the eyes of Christianity. Based on Christianity, they are false prophets, a cult, and spreading a false gospel.

 

[Quahom1]

And he, and you, and jack, and jim, and bill, and tom, and mike, and dick, and mary, and jane... They truly believe what they are saying... He simply says he doesn't agree/believe others faiths... But he certainly doesn't say what they believe is bull.... I have NEVER seen Mee, go down to name calling.



(yes it hurts when you get -personal- and name calling.)

It hurts others when he shares his values and faith? Wow... If it hurts I guess we should all just believe the same thing... We best stop having our own opinions.



That's your opinion. (JW are only one of the many groups of christians that believe not in the trinity.)

No idea why I replied to your post... It just seems like your attempting to dictate to him to cease his expression(although yeah his expression isn't that creative... but, we're working on that.) and thought, the most common issue people have with Mee is that he copies and pastes... But, it feels like your main issue with him is he differs from your chain of faith, specially when he speaks of the trinity... So yeah... I just felt like posting.

Tell you what Alex. Mee lays off of the Trinity, and I'll not mess with his beliefs either. But after several years of Mee's stuff, well anything can get old.

By the way, how does the cape feel?

 

[mee]

everything you say everything you preach is bull. How does that feel mee? Because I truly believe what I am saying.

hurts don't it. quote]


no worries it goes with the job of being one of JEHOVAHS WITNESSES to have those sort of things said to us , but mee does not take it personally .

remember we have it all the time on the door to door work,


mee can take it .

Also there are a large part of the GREAT CROWD who are spoken of in revelation 7;9-10 who once upon a time said just the same as you are saying and now they are giving out just the same things as mee is saying.

 

[Quahom1]

everything you say everything you preach is bull. How does that feel mee? Because I truly believe what I am saying.

hurts don't it. quote]


no worries it goes with the job of being one of JEHOVAHS WITNESSES to have those sort of things said to us , but mee does not take it personally .

remember we have it all the time on the door to door work,


mee can take it .

Also there are a large part of the GREAT CROWD who are spoken of in revelation 7;9-10 who once upon a time said just the same as you are saying and now they are giving out just the same things as mee is saying.

No mee can't. Otherwise mee would have chosen to say nothing, and simply act as if no comment was ever made. But mee has to have the last word on everything, because mee is right and everyone else is wrong. Mee doesn't listen to rules either, because mee is above the law. Mee cuts and pastes instead of expressing self. Mee proselitizes because mee has an agenda, not a desire to discuss things.

And mee insists on putting others down, and let others still do mee's debates for mee.

Alex P has more passion and thought than mee.

 

[seattlegal]

I voted, "Yes, but not like you think," because no one else can do my thinking for me.

{I have to admit, though, it does make a nice koan.}