Trinity

[BlaznFattyz]

So how many brothers, sisters, and mothers does Jesus have? By what he said, it sounds like more than one.

brothers in christ. brother meaning fellowship.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

When people talk about the Trinity, I think what they really mean is the Phenomenon of God, the Logos. But the Phenomenon of God doesn't just consist of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit but is a nexus that includes the prophets, apostles and Jesus' disciples.

what? when christians talk about the Trinity, they are talking about the one true living God, who has revealed himself in three persons. It is that simple without all the philosocrap.

 

[cyberpi]

what are you mumbling? just say what you want to say.

They are questions... do you have answers?

Here is another one: Did God give Jesus a commandment of what to say and speak, or was he speaking of himself?

 

[BlaznFattyz]

They are questions... do you have answers?

Here is another one: Did God give Jesus a commandment of what to say and speak, or was he speaking of himself?

Jesus did not come to speak as a man interpreting a message. he did not have some philosophical religion of man that was the newest fad. and he did not dicate a message relayed by an angel. He came as a mirror image of the Father in heaven and he cannot say anything other than what the Father in heaven would say. when he spoke, it is God speaking, and his authority in speaking it as as such. anyone who heard him or saw him saw and heard the Father in heaven. The blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is different because it is truth of Christ that is revealed, that when denied it is what God has revealed to you as truth, yet you deny God fully knowing what you are doing.

 

[Quahom1]

So how many brothers, sisters, and mothers does Jesus have? By what he said, it sounds like more than one.

Gospel says he had brothers and sisters. And at his death he gave his mother to his friend to care for and look after her, because she was a widow. And he also declared that all were his brothers, sisters and mothers.

 

[Quahom1]

Jesus did not come to speak as a man interpreting a message. he did not have some philosophical religion of man that was the newest fad. and he did not dicate a message relayed by an angel. He came as a mirror image of the Father in heaven and he cannot say anything other than what the Father in heaven would say. when he spoke, it is God speaking, and his authority in speaking it as as such. anyone who heard him or saw him saw and heard the Father in heaven. The blaspheme of the Holy Spirit is different because it is truth of Christ that is revealed, that when denied it is what God has revealed to you as truth, yet you deny God fully knowing what you are doing.

Indeed, he amazed the priests and sages in the temple at the age of 12, with his knowledge and understanding of life. They were stunned that a "child" would know the depth of knowledge and wisdom Jesus had.

 

[Quahom1]

They are questions... do you have answers?

Here is another one: Did God give Jesus a commandment of what to say and speak, or was he speaking of himself?

He said "The Father and I are one". He also said "The Father is in me, and I am in the Father". He also said "No one can get the the Father but through me, and the Father comes to you by me."

John states that Jesus is the Word of God, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and God and the Word are One, and the world knew him not. God the Father is called the Father, but never called the Lord directly. The Old testament speaks at times of the Father, and other times of the Lord. Only Jesus was called the Lord in the New testament, and extrapilation strongly suggests that in the Old testament, The Lord was a personage of God that the world new not, but different from the Father, yet the same.

 

[Quahom1]

A multitude. But most importantly, it's a fellowship. People connected to a nexus through the Spirit.



Mee is a Jehovah's Witness: a non-Trinitarian.



Not necessarily. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit all possess and are illuminated by the Phenomenon of God, the Logos, a concept introduced by a philosopher named Philo. That doesn't necessarily make any of them God. They are either projectors of the Phenomenon of God, or are the actual essence of God. The Spirit is a wind that blows. The Father is a source of authority and gives a sense of belonging. The Son is God's Ambassador to humanity, but carries the Phenomenon of God (Logos) as part of his mission to humanity.

We can't know for sure what the first-century Christians believed because what we get in the New Testament is a description and depiction of first-century Christian beliefs.

But Jesus wasn't the only human being who carried the Phenomenon of God (Logos). Many of the first-century Christians carried the Logos too. This is what I believe the author of John meant by the Logos becoming flesh. We are the flesh that now carries the Logos. Jesus has passed the Phenomenon of God onto us. Those who carry the Phenomenon of God are effectively part of a fellowship.

It is the fellowship of the Logos, and at the same time a fellowship of the Spiritos. Whether we call it Logos, Spiritos or Shekinah, they are all just ways of expressing ideas about how the Phenomenon of God binds us together and leads us through the challenges in our lives. The Logos is our Reasoning, our mindset, our perspective, our attitude. The Spiritos is the wind that blows in our hearts and minds, it's our personal feelings and intuition. The Shekinah is the presence of God. But whatever word we use, it's about the invisible Phenomenon of God.

It's a phenomenon that we can only see if we look into the hearts and minds of people with the Logos and connect with them. Some people saw the Logos in Jesus. Some did not. It was not physically visible. It was only spiritually visible. It was like, as Jesus said, a wind that you couldn't see, but whose effects were visible if you paid attention. You would only have noticed what the wind was doing if you were distinctly looking for its effects. Jesus himself was not the Phenomenon, but a part of the Phenomenon. But it wasn't practical for him to be the sole carrier of the Phenomenon, so he gave it to his disciples. This group of people carrying the Phenomenon were to be an expanding fellowship, an expanding Phenomenon of the Logos, of people baptised by the Spiritos, the Divine Wind.

The Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the prophets, apostles and Jesus' disciples are part of a Phenomenon, and they are a fellowship that is being formed into a spiritual house, a spiritual temple, in which God lives in His people, and His people live in Himself. The fellowship and Phenomenon is like a spiritual bubble of space and time where people are connected to God. This spiritual bubble is the Spiritos, the Logos, the Shekinah. It is the air that people will breathe in the Kingdom. Home sweet home. It's a nexus of people and God.

I see the Trinity as a subjective concept, neither mandatory nor illegal. When people talk about the Trinity, I think what they really mean is the Phenomenon of God, the Logos. But the Phenomenon of God doesn't just consist of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit but is a nexus that includes the prophets, apostles and Jesus' disciples.

Hmm, the Father, with the Word (Logos) and in Spirit. Sounds like three expressions describing One Entity (that is complete). You know I exist (for example) though you can't physically see me, because you are reading my "word". And you are aware of my "spirit" because I am focussed on you as I express my "word" to you. Yet I am one and the same entity.

 

[Saltmeister]

what? when christians talk about the Trinity, they are talking about the one true living God, who has revealed himself in three persons. It is that simple without all the philosocrap.

Not trying to make things complicated here. Just think there's an unnecessary barrier between Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians.

When you say that "God is revealed in three persons," you are saying that God is somehow projecting Himself. Anything that projects itself has a Phenomenon, so the so-called "three persons" could be thought of as part of the Phenomenon.

But my point is that it is not essential to see God as triune. The terminology is "triune" but that doesn't mean God is triune. "Father," "Son" and "Holy Spirit" are just words that the first-century Christians used. They don't actually refer to distinctly separable entities. They refer to phenomena. A phenomenon in the world is something you observe, like the wind blowing paper around, a lightning storm or a teacher getting angry at her students and yelling at them.

There is overlap between the meaning of the words "Logos," "Spiritos" and "Shekinah." They all refer to the Phenomenon of God, but have slightly different meanings depending on how they're describing what God means and is doing in the world. We, as human beings, made up words to describe things in the natural world like the wind and the lightning storm. The wind and the lightning storm aren't distinctly separable entities. The words have been introduced into our language and assigned meanings that will be useful for mortals like us.

The same thing happened when the first-century Christians wrote the New Testament. "Father," "Son," "Holy Spirit," "Logos" and "Spiritos" don't refer to anything precise or exact. The words are put in there for meaningful communication to future generations.

But what I'm saying is that maybe it's not really about God, but the Phenomenon of God. These words don't really describe God, but concepts related to God to which and with which humans can relate and connect. Human beings are establishing a relationship with God by relating and connecting to God's Phenomenon. We cannot define God, so we must connect with something less than Him, something compatible with our human nature.

The Logos described in the opening passage of the Gospel of John was a human-compatible phenomenon. The problem of Trinitarianism vs. non-Trinitarianism might be resolvable by thinking of the Logos, the Phenomenon of God, as triune instead of God. Isn't that the whole idea behind the Trinity, that it's really about the Phenomenon of God rather than God Himself? But anyway, you'd have to ask mee on that one. Does my idea work for him? I'm just trying to build bridges here.

 

[Saltmeister]

Hmm, the Father, with the Word (Logos) and in Spirit. Sounds like three expressions describing One Entity (that is complete). You know I exist (for example) though you can't physically see me, because you are reading my "word". And you are aware of my "spirit" because I am focussed on you as I express my "word" to you. Yet I am one and the same entity.

Yes you exist and you are one entity.

But......your phenomenon, the Quahom phenomenon, your online personality is not the real "you." Or at least.....not the whole you. It can only ever be an image, a projection of you. Same with me. This is not the real "me." What you see is the Saltmeister phenomenon. It's just a projection of me.

Even if you found out my address and....ding dong....knocked on my door. You still wouldn't know the real me....the whole me. It is still just a projection of me.

The only way to know the real me, whole me, is to read my mind, or perform a mind meld. Where we say, my mind, your mind, our minds are one.

The real you, the whole you, is one existent entity. But the projection of you exists only in my mind. It is not even an entity. It is an image I have of you.

Nevertheless, when we interact online, it is two real personalities interacting. Real feelings. Real attitudes. Real needs. Even if some things are hidden. The phenomenon is as real as its source......If I insult the online personality (the spirit), I might well be "blaspheming" against its source (father).

 

[Saltmeister]

If a person blasphemes Jesus, will it be forgiven? If a person blasphemes the Holy Spirit, will it be forgiven?

The relationship between the names of the Father and that of the Holy Spirit, might be seen as similar to that of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) and the name "HaShem" in Jewish terminology.

The Tetragrammaton is more sacred than "HaShem" even though both are names for God in Judaism.

I think the difference between "Father" and that of the "Holy Spirit" is similar. The name "Holy Spirit" is more sacred than "Father."

 

[Quahom1]

Yes you exist and you are one entity.

But......your phenomenon, the Quahom phenomenon, your online personality is not the real "you." Or at least.....not the whole you. It can only ever be an image, a projection of you. Same with me. This is not the real "me." What you see is the Saltmeister phenomenon. It's just a projection of me.

Even if you found out my address and....ding dong....knocked on my door. You still wouldn't know the real me....the whole me. It is still just a projection of me.

The only way to know the real me, whole me, is to read my mind, or perform a mind meld. Where we say, my mind, your mind, our minds are one.

The real you, the whole you, is one existent entity. But the projection of you exists only in my mind. It is not even an entity. It is an image I have of you.

Nevertheless, when we interact online, it is two real personalities interacting. Real feelings. Real attitudes. Real needs. Even if some things are hidden. The phenomenon is as real as its source......If I insult the online personality (the spirit), I might well be "blaspheming" against its source (father).

Oh dear, it sounds more to me like being....married

 

[Quahom1]

The relationship between the names of the Father and that of the Holy Spirit, might be seen as similar to that of the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) and the name "HaShem" in Jewish terminology.

The Tetragrammaton is more sacred than "HaShem" even though both are names for God in Judaism.

I think the difference between "Father" and that of the "Holy Spirit" is similar. The name "Holy Spirit" is more sacred than "Father."

That's because the Holy Spirit acts upon us daily and directly. While the other two personages are busy building a huge "mansion" for us to come play in...

 

[Joedjr]

He said "The Father and I are one". He also said "The Father is in me, and I am in the Father". He also said "No one can get the the Father but through me, and the Father comes to you by me."

Hi Quahom1
I actually prefer this from John 6: from the NASB

43:Jesus answered and said to them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
44:"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45:"It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught of G!d.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
46:"Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from G!d; He has seen the Father.

Joe

 

[Joedjr]

Hi,
A "picture" from Revelation 5: from the NASB

5:and one of the elders said to me, "Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals."
6:And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of G!d, sent out into all the earth.
7:And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.
8:When he had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
9:And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for G!d with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Joe

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Just think there's an unnecessary barrier between Trinitarians and non-Trinitarians.

When you say that "God is revealed in three persons," you are saying that God is somehow projecting Himself. Anything that projects itself has a Phenomenon, so the so-called "three persons" could be thought of as part of the Phenomenon.

But my point is that it is not essential to see God as triune.

As a christian, it is necessary to see God as Father, Son, Holy Spirit because Christ is divine, honored, and glorified, and because the dwelling of the Holy Spirit leads one to acknowledge that Christ is Lord. Because we acknowledge the deity of Christ, we are able to worship Christ and accept his salvation and forgiveness of sins as God, because we know that He is God. So the barrier is not simply trinitarians vs non-trinitarians, it is the deity of christ vs. non-deity of christ, and worshiping in spirit and truth vs worshiping in ignorance, and to not understand that Christ is Lord makes all the difference in the world. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.

When is say God is revealed in three persons, I would not use projecting, because it doesnt really fit the distinctness as well as the oneness of each person, I think i would use proceed instead. All things proceed from the Father, because He is the source, but they are all God, they cannot do that which God does not do and what they do is what God does, but at the same time, they have their own distinct personage and role to fill, all of which is how God accomplishes his will.

By "person" is meant the characteristics of self awareness, speech, having a will, emotions, etc. Therefore, there are three persons. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father as each of them have a will and speak to each other and to people. So it is more than just a "projection" They are not three separate gods and are not three separate beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful.

 

[Lecter]

Check it out:

• The universe is made up of Space, Time, and Matter (you could also say energy, but matter is just a different form of energy)
• Space is made up of 3 dimensions (three-in-one)
• Time in one dimension but understood as Past, Present, and Future (three-in-one)
• Ordinary matter is made up of Atoms: which are made up of Protons, Neutrons, and Electrons--except for Hydrogen, which normally doesn't have neutrons (three-in-one)
  • Protons and Neutrons are comprised of 3 smaller particles called quarks (three-in-one)

Wow. Human beings are male and female. Does this mean God is two?

The truth is that Jesus not even once mentioned the word trinity or said that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God.

Not only does such statement does not exist, Jesus even spoke AGAINST it. Don't believe everything you are told, heck don't even take my word for it, investigate the matter yourself.

Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Here Jesus confirms he is not to be called good since only ONE is good and that is god alone.

 

[Joedjr]

Hi,
A little more from the NASB.

Matthew 23:
8:"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers
9:"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

Luke 10:
21:At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, "I praise You, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and revealed them to infants. Yes, Father for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight.

John 5:
30:"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will. but the will of Him who sent Me.
31:"If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.
32:"There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.

Joe

 

[Pico]

Wow. Human beings are male and female. Does this mean God is two?

The truth is that Jesus not even once mentioned the word trinity or said that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God.

Not only does such statement does not exist, Jesus even spoke AGAINST it. Don't believe everything you are told, heck don't even take my word for it, investigate the matter yourself.

Mark 10:18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.

Here Jesus confirms he is not to be called good since only ONE is good and that is god alone.

Upon investigation it appears Jesus was just testing them. For he was God in the flesh, he wanted to see if they understood that. He didn't say "i'm not God." or "I'm not good," he said "no one is good-except for God alone."

There are other places where Jesus says: if you've seen me you see the Father, if you love me you love the Father, if you worship me you worship the Father.

 

[Lecter]

Upon investigation it appears Jesus was just testing them. For he was God in the flesh, he wanted to see if they understood that. He didn't say "i'm not God." or "I'm not good," he said "no one is good-except for God alone."

But that is not in the text. That's what you are saying, not what Jesus said.

It is also written:

John 20:17 “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.”

Clearly here Jesus says that the one called the father is his own god just like everyone elses god.

Jesus himself worshiped god, and so should anyone else who wants to follow the teachings of Christ.