No, you slam Trinitarians and promote your own belief. You do not discuss anything. That is not what CR is for Mee.many do dismiss the promises in the bible, and many do dismiss bible truths as nonsense , and believe me you will not be the first to do that , the world is full of people who do not respond to the wonderful promises of God .
matthew 5;5, ...psalm 37; 11 ,29 .... Daniel 2;44..... Daniel 7;13-14.... matthew 24;14 ...... psalm 83;18 ....... the nonsense that i promote ,is all based on the promises in the bible . but many as you say dismiss it .
but i still love to promote it
Trinity
- Thread starter Pico
- Start date
Indeed — a Gift of the Holy Spirit:
"And unto all nations the gospel must first be preached. And when they shall lead you and deliver you up, be not thoughtful beforehand what you shall speak; but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye. For it is not you that speak, but the Holy Spirit."
Mark 13:10-11
Doctrine is not Revelation, but it is the revelation of the meaning of Revelation.
Thomas
Dream
Well-Known Member
Positions Taken and Sample Statements
I've gone through this 15 page thread and compiled 2 statements from every contributor that help to give the flavor of the thread in total.
Thomas:
When the High Priest asked the question, he was not asking 'are you a prophet?' but 'are you God?' — to which Jesus answers yes.
The 'rest of the story' that belongs with Scripture is Tradition ...
Mee:
IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God’s revelation of himself to mankind..
Jesus plays a very big part in the outworking of Gods purpose for the earth ,and Jesus was sent to the earth by his father and Jehovah wants people to listen to Jesus . John 3;16-17 but Jesus is not God
Pico:
Upon investigation it appears Jesus was just testing them. For he was God in the flesh, he wanted to see if they understood that. He didn't say "i'm not God." or "I'm not good," he said "no one is good-except for God alone."
I'm curious to JW's why do they think Jesus was crucified? To my understanding of the Bible, Jesus claimed to be God, and was killed for blasphemy.
Path_of_one:
I like the concept, but it doesn't really work when you consider a lot of the modern theories about the universe. For example, in string theory, space has 11 dimensions.
Poverty is our own doing. We have plenty of stuff on earth. We just need to learn to share it better.
Azure24:
...and about the trinity, to keep a long post short...
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Dah-veeth:
Since this is a comparative religion forum, I thought I might add a Baha'i perspective on Trinity:
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115#
Quahom1:
I think I'll stick with Jesus' own words "No one knows the moment of the coming, not even the Son, but only the Father.." (para)
While on Earth Jesus put away his godhead, therefore he was human. So his statement was accurate.
BlaznFattyz:
i am repeating what the bible says. again you are leaving out the parts of the bible where the Father calls the Son God and leaving out the parts where Christ is worshiped, honored and glorified.....and all other attributes of God.
By you just pointing out a scripture to fit your argument your agenda becomes apparent, and your ability to see beyond it becomes clouded.
Saltmeister:
I will go to my spiritual bed, sleep spiritually and then have a spiritual awakening.
What a lot of religions possess is a system of representations and symbolisms. This is actually one link Christianity has with paganism. It's the use of symbols and representations.
Lecter:
Clearly here Jesus says that the one called the father is his own god just like everyone elses god.
Jesus tells him he is going to send them another comforter because if he does not leave he will not come. However according to the scripture the holy spirit was already there, so he could not have been talking about the holy spirit.
Joedjr:
If Christianity was practiced in line with what is taught in the bible instead of what was in the imagination of the tradition builders it would look nothing like we have today.
I don't have a problem with preexistence of the Word. Sometimes I think John is referring to Jesus as the perfect Torah.
Heliotrope:
Amongst the Abrahamic religions, evidence of syncretism from pagan traditions is considered prima facie proof of corruption and falsehood.
This seems to be based on an assumption that pagan thought is necessarily devoid of divine inspiration. Why so? Why is syncretism a bad thing?
Jauntoo3:
From the perspective of one seeking to unite with the Divine Providence that Christians know as the Heavenly Father, it seems to me such attitudes against syncretism are misdirected, unnecessary and negative energies created and wasted. I find I do not have to hate other paths in order to love the path I am on. I am a bit partial though, I hope you don't mind that.
Still Thinking:
If that's true then you're saying Jesus is not God. And if He's not God, He's just a crazy person who tries to heal people and create miracles. The Word became flesh and dwelled amongst us; that sounds like a Divine being to me . . . . . .
Thomas - don't you love how Mee never addressed the errors in the NWT? You seem to be very educated in this area, since you mentioned the so-called "translators" of that Bible being unable to pass a simple test.
Alex P:
Wax on, wax off
I've gone through this 15 page thread and compiled 2 statements from every contributor that help to give the flavor of the thread in total.
Thomas:
When the High Priest asked the question, he was not asking 'are you a prophet?' but 'are you God?' — to which Jesus answers yes.
The 'rest of the story' that belongs with Scripture is Tradition ...
Mee:
IF THE Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God’s revelation of himself to mankind..
Jesus plays a very big part in the outworking of Gods purpose for the earth ,and Jesus was sent to the earth by his father and Jehovah wants people to listen to Jesus . John 3;16-17 but Jesus is not God
Pico:
Upon investigation it appears Jesus was just testing them. For he was God in the flesh, he wanted to see if they understood that. He didn't say "i'm not God." or "I'm not good," he said "no one is good-except for God alone."
I'm curious to JW's why do they think Jesus was crucified? To my understanding of the Bible, Jesus claimed to be God, and was killed for blasphemy.
Path_of_one:
I like the concept, but it doesn't really work when you consider a lot of the modern theories about the universe. For example, in string theory, space has 11 dimensions.
Poverty is our own doing. We have plenty of stuff on earth. We just need to learn to share it better.
Azure24:
...and about the trinity, to keep a long post short...
"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Dah-veeth:
Since this is a comparative religion forum, I thought I might add a Baha'i perspective on Trinity:
Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 113-115#
Quahom1:
I think I'll stick with Jesus' own words "No one knows the moment of the coming, not even the Son, but only the Father.." (para)
While on Earth Jesus put away his godhead, therefore he was human. So his statement was accurate.
BlaznFattyz:
i am repeating what the bible says. again you are leaving out the parts of the bible where the Father calls the Son God and leaving out the parts where Christ is worshiped, honored and glorified.....and all other attributes of God.
By you just pointing out a scripture to fit your argument your agenda becomes apparent, and your ability to see beyond it becomes clouded.
Saltmeister:
I will go to my spiritual bed, sleep spiritually and then have a spiritual awakening.
What a lot of religions possess is a system of representations and symbolisms. This is actually one link Christianity has with paganism. It's the use of symbols and representations.
Lecter:
Clearly here Jesus says that the one called the father is his own god just like everyone elses god.
Jesus tells him he is going to send them another comforter because if he does not leave he will not come. However according to the scripture the holy spirit was already there, so he could not have been talking about the holy spirit.
Joedjr:
If Christianity was practiced in line with what is taught in the bible instead of what was in the imagination of the tradition builders it would look nothing like we have today.
I don't have a problem with preexistence of the Word. Sometimes I think John is referring to Jesus as the perfect Torah.
Heliotrope:
Amongst the Abrahamic religions, evidence of syncretism from pagan traditions is considered prima facie proof of corruption and falsehood.
This seems to be based on an assumption that pagan thought is necessarily devoid of divine inspiration. Why so? Why is syncretism a bad thing?
Jauntoo3:
From the perspective of one seeking to unite with the Divine Providence that Christians know as the Heavenly Father, it seems to me such attitudes against syncretism are misdirected, unnecessary and negative energies created and wasted. I find I do not have to hate other paths in order to love the path I am on. I am a bit partial though, I hope you don't mind that.
Still Thinking:
If that's true then you're saying Jesus is not God. And if He's not God, He's just a crazy person who tries to heal people and create miracles. The Word became flesh and dwelled amongst us; that sounds like a Divine being to me . . . . . .
Thomas - don't you love how Mee never addressed the errors in the NWT? You seem to be very educated in this area, since you mentioned the so-called "translators" of that Bible being unable to pass a simple test.
Alex P:
Wax on, wax off
Namaste Dream,
Nice job, do you suppose you could do this again next week with the next 15 pages?
I wonder what percentage of Christians are Trinitarians, which are non trinitarians and which would like to avoid the issue and love G!d and their neighbor?
Nice job, do you suppose you could do this again next week with the next 15 pages?
I wonder what percentage of Christians are Trinitarians, which are non trinitarians and which would like to avoid the issue and love G!d and their neighbor?
Dream
Well-Known Member
Thanks, Wil; but this was a one-time thing for this thread. Maybe when we get to the end ha ha.....but seriously....!
I think discussion of a topic like this is good as long as we take it for what it is. It is important for some good reasons, but whether you believe in Trinity or not doesn't tell me how much you love people. It tells me nothing of your family situation, your resolve, or any of the most important things about you.
I think discussion of a topic like this is good as long as we take it for what it is. It is important for some good reasons, but whether you believe in Trinity or not doesn't tell me how much you love people. It tells me nothing of your family situation, your resolve, or any of the most important things about you.
M
mee
Guest
some people regard bible truth that is promoted ,as slamming others .
but some people see it as the truth promoted .
promoting bible truth in a christian forum seems ok to mee
after all the bible is the aurthority . or are you saying that because i do not agree with you about the trinity i should not make it known ?
many people do not agree with what i promote even though it is inline with the bible, but i do not complain about it they are free to have their say are they not ?
M
mee
Guest
First of all, the words "trinity," "triune," "God-man," "first person," "second person," "third person," "three persons," do not appear anywhere in the inspired text of either Catholic or Protestant Bibles.
Nowhere in the Bible do we find terms such as "God the Son," or "God the Holy Spirit," but rather we read "the Son of God," "the spirit of God," or just "holy spirit."
Nowhere in Scripture is God revealed as three persons, but always as one God.
Now if the very words that are necessary to express the doctrine of the trinity do not appear in the Holy Scriptures, how can we suppose the doctrine to be found or taught therein? Impossible.
Nowhere in the Bible do we find terms such as "God the Son," or "God the Holy Spirit," but rather we read "the Son of God," "the spirit of God," or just "holy spirit."
Nowhere in Scripture is God revealed as three persons, but always as one God.
Now if the very words that are necessary to express the doctrine of the trinity do not appear in the Holy Scriptures, how can we suppose the doctrine to be found or taught therein? Impossible.
M
mee
Guest
and indeed it was ,and is being made known
matthew 28;19-20 matthew 24;14 no mention of the manmade trinity doctrine at all
M
mee
Guest
Re: Positions Taken and Sample Statements
to my understanding of the bible he never claimed to be God ,even though others wrongly claimed that he was.
just because others (the jews)thought he was claiming to be God ,does not mean that those others were correct in their thinking . many people think many things but not always according to accurate knowledge .
do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son? JOHN 10;36
Yes, as we can see from the bible, Jesus never ever claimed to be equal to his father .
YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
JOHN 14;28
please show me in the bible where Jesus claimed to be God ?
to my understanding of the bible he never claimed to be God ,even though others wrongly claimed that he was.
just because others (the jews)thought he was claiming to be God ,does not mean that those others were correct in their thinking . many people think many things but not always according to accurate knowledge .
do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son? JOHN 10;36
Yes, as we can see from the bible, Jesus never ever claimed to be equal to his father .
YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming [back] to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.
JOHN 14;28
Re: Positions Taken and Sample Statements
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Matthew 11:29 "Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: And you shall find rest to your souls."
Matthew 16:15-17 "Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven."
Matthew 26:63-65 "... And the high priest said to him: I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us if thou be the Christ the Son of God. Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his garments, saying: He hath blasphemed: What further need have we of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard the blasphemy."
Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth."
Matthew 28:20 "And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."
It's all there, Mee ... whether you choose to see it, or 'interpret it away' according to the doctrines of men, is another matter ...
No, you've made the common mistake of quoting out of context ... read the verse that follows:
"If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me and I in the Father."
So Jesus is saying, if I do my Father's work, believe in me, and if you cannot bring yourselves to believe in me, at least believe in the One who sent me, but if you believe in the works, then you will come to know that no man can do the Father's work, except the Son, because Father and Son are One.
As it stands, you believe in the works, but not the one who does the work ... you believe in the Father, but reject the Son ... and in so doing, reject the Father, too:
John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day."
Matthew 11:27 "All things are delivered to me by my Father ..."
'all things', Mee, includes you and I.
"And no one knoweth the Son but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him."
Thomas
Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
Matthew 11:29 "Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: And you shall find rest to your souls."
Matthew 16:15-17 "Jesus saith to them: But whom do you say that I am? Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven."
Matthew 26:63-65 "... And the high priest said to him: I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us if thou be the Christ the Son of God. Jesus saith to him: Thou hast said it. Nevertheless I say to you, hereafter you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God and coming in the clouds of heaven. Then the high priest rent his garments, saying: He hath blasphemed: What further need have we of witnesses? Behold, now you have heard the blasphemy."
Matthew 28:18 "And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth."
Matthew 28:20 "And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world."
It's all there, Mee ... whether you choose to see it, or 'interpret it away' according to the doctrines of men, is another matter ...
Then I suggest your teachers were at fault.
Are you suggesting that Jesus was too polite to point out the error, and thought it better to be executed than to embarrass His accusers?
No, you've made the common mistake of quoting out of context ... read the verse that follows:
"If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me and I in the Father."
So Jesus is saying, if I do my Father's work, believe in me, and if you cannot bring yourselves to believe in me, at least believe in the One who sent me, but if you believe in the works, then you will come to know that no man can do the Father's work, except the Son, because Father and Son are One.
As it stands, you believe in the works, but not the one who does the work ... you believe in the Father, but reject the Son ... and in so doing, reject the Father, too:
John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him. And I will raise him up in the last day."
Matthew 11:27 "All things are delivered to me by my Father ..."
'all things', Mee, includes you and I.
"And no one knoweth the Son but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him."
Thomas
Dream
Well-Known Member
John 10:36
Jesus is probably being accused of blasphemy under the directions that are repeated in Deuteronomy.
Jesus is probably being accused of blasphemy under the directions that are repeated in Deuteronomy.
The main thing is that Trinity relies upon church tradition and is not found by itself in the letters and gospels. The accusation of blasphemy in John 10 was actually an accusation of false teaching -- or teaching contrary to Moses. The way that Jesus said he was God, was merely a claim to be the next prophet like Moses. This relates to the fact that saying anything against what Moses said is the scriptural definition of 'Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit'. Jesus baptized in the Holy Spirit, just like Moses did. If Jesus' point was really to claim to be a God this would not justify the accusation of blasphemy as long as his teachings were in keeping with Moses and were accompanied by miracles. As a precedent, Moses was legitimately called 'God' as he spoke for the God that cannot be seen. Three scripture references follow. I'm keeping it short:
These verses should suggest to us that Israel being baptized into Moses was baptized into the Holy Spirit. I do not know if this is in harmony with church tradition, however I suggest it is worth looking into. The up-shot of it is that Jesus teachings and his claim as the Anointed of God were being brought into question both at the same time. That is what is indicated by the word 'Blasphemy'.
Quite possibly. His conflation of Daniel and the Psalms in His response would also have aroused their anger. But then to base an assumption on these verses, and ignore the rest of Scripture, is to miss the point.
Once again, it was being taught before the Gospels and letters were written, and it was part of the disciplina arcana by which the catechumen was sworn to secrecy.
The Christians were first and foremost a liturgical community, and yet nothing of the Liturgy is written in the Gospels and Letters either, rather the letters and later the Gospels were read aloud as part of the Liturgy.
In this sense, the Liturgy is the (secret) transmission of the spirit of the doctrine, of which the Scriptures are, without that illuminating spirit, little but the letter.
So without the tradition one is left with a collection of works, with no real access to anything but a surface reading of the text.
No it wasn't. Where did you ever get that from? The most mention of Moses is in the Gospel of John, and John never saw Jesus as a prophet.
And then you quote Scripture, St Paul, who is introducing a Trinitarian formula, and you have identified Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but insist the doctrine is an invention?
I am not sure the Jews would agree with you, and I can find no reference to the Jews calling Moses 'God'.
But the Jews do not accept the Holy Spirit, else they would be obliged to accept two Gods.
I think I would say you're conflating Old and New Testament texts. You also seem to be using a New Testament text of the Trinity to infer there isn't a Trinity?
Thomas
Dream
Well-Known Member
That was the best way that I could explain the way I've been seeing this verse. Protestant Christianity has become more of a search for lost roots than of an actual protest against Catholicism, and it is that search that describes almost the entirety of my Christian education. I value liturgy as a way of preserving information, however I know that to be truly valid it must have a failsafe within it to counter corruption by generations of men. I suspect any liturgy given by God will have this property. There is a similar idea within our body's DNA and cell structures, where each cell is programmed to self destruct in certain instances where corruption is detected. What is the failsafe in the Church's liturgy? I know that this liturgy was not passed on to me. Is that the proof of its failsafe?
The only liturgy with fail-safes that I know of is Moses' words, the principles therein, and the strong testimony of its continuity. To this I respite when a passage in a gospel seems unclear. I view the gospels and letters with regard to it, comparing them to it in every case. Without it, the gospels have no liturgy any longer. Are they corrupt? They will contradict it. That liturgy which was passed down through the church I consider irrecoverable. I started over.
The only liturgy with fail-safes that I know of is Moses' words, the principles therein, and the strong testimony of its continuity. To this I respite when a passage in a gospel seems unclear. I view the gospels and letters with regard to it, comparing them to it in every case. Without it, the gospels have no liturgy any longer. Are they corrupt? They will contradict it. That liturgy which was passed down through the church I consider irrecoverable. I started over.
Hi Dream
Why not convert, if you feel so strongly?
It's a shame there are no Greek Orthodox here, they would certainly refute that last statement. I of course would argue that the Protestant liturgy is void, but to say the orthodox liturgy was lost, and reinvented, is going too far.
Thomas
Interestingly, John Henry Newman began his "Development of Christian Doctrine" as an Anglican, and finished it a Catholic, declaring that only the Catholic Church was a Church the Fathers might recognise as being a continuation of the faith that they believed.
Really? Even in the face of the fact there is more uncertainty about the authorship of the Mosaic texts than of the Gospels? That's a statement of faith in my book, not 'fact' ... I'm not disputing the Pentateuch, or the Mosaic authorship — but I am surprised that someone — other than a Jew — might assert its infallibility over the New Testament.
Why not convert, if you feel so strongly?
And yet Christ is the light of the Law? The fulfillment of that which was promised? Surely then you are obliged to accept that Jesus is not the Messiah?
New wine in old bottles comes to mind ...
It's a shame there are no Greek Orthodox here, they would certainly refute that last statement. I of course would argue that the Protestant liturgy is void, but to say the orthodox liturgy was lost, and reinvented, is going too far.
Thomas
Dream
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your input, Thomas; and I appreciate your honest opinion about it. Perhaps we should get back to the topic of the thread, then.
M
mee
Guest
Re: Positions Taken and Sample Statements
And yes Jesus was humble and lowly in heart , and just as his father said LISTEN TO HIM ....LUKE 9;35 .
and yes as Jesus himself said ,all power and aurthority was GIVEN him
and yes as you say its all there even though many choose to dissmiss what the bible really teaches ,and move away to manmade doctrines .
and yes the father and the son are in unity and purpose and Jesus learned many things from his father.
being in heaven with his father before being born on the earth, he had the best teacher and gained much wisdom indeed .
but no where in the bible does it teach us that Jesus is GOD.
And he certainly did do the works of the father when he was on the earth , and it was his father who sent him to the earth for that purpose.
IT WAS THE FATHER THAT SENT HIM . have another read of the bible with no preconcieved ideas about a TRINITY DOCTRINE
AND YOU WILL SEE THINGS VERY CLEARLY INDEED
so as we can see the bible nowhere teaches that Jesus is God it just does not teach that .
yes all things are delivered to him BY THE FATHER
not sure why you think that JW reject the son , we certainly know and believe that Jesus IS THE SON OF GOD
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.
john 3;16-17
He who did not even spare HIS OWN SON but delivered him up for us all, why will he not also with him kindly give us all other things? ROMANS 8;32
By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him
1 JOHN 4;9
But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.
JOHN 20;31
YES AS WE CAN SEE THE BIBLE TEACHES US THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD ,I AM SEARCHING LIKE MAD AND THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THAT JESUS IS GOD . ITS NOT THERE
thats because i have not taken on the preconcieved manmade doctrine THE TRINITY ..............
i only take in pure bible teachings with no manmade doctrines to cloud my thought .
if people do that they are more inline with Gods thoughts .
yes simon peter was right he said that Jesus was the SON OF GOD .
And yes Jesus was humble and lowly in heart , and just as his father said LISTEN TO HIM ....LUKE 9;35 .
and yes as Jesus himself said ,all power and aurthority was GIVEN him
and yes as you say its all there even though many choose to dissmiss what the bible really teaches ,and move away to manmade doctrines .
and yes the father and the son are in unity and purpose and Jesus learned many things from his father.
being in heaven with his father before being born on the earth, he had the best teacher and gained much wisdom indeed .
but no where in the bible does it teach us that Jesus is GOD.
And he certainly did do the works of the father when he was on the earth , and it was his father who sent him to the earth for that purpose.
IT WAS THE FATHER THAT SENT HIM . have another read of the bible with no preconcieved ideas about a TRINITY DOCTRINE
AND YOU WILL SEE THINGS VERY CLEARLY INDEED
so as we can see the bible nowhere teaches that Jesus is God it just does not teach that .
yes all things are delivered to him BY THE FATHER
not sure why you think that JW reject the son , we certainly know and believe that Jesus IS THE SON OF GOD
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.
john 3;16-17
He who did not even spare HIS OWN SON but delivered him up for us all, why will he not also with him kindly give us all other things? ROMANS 8;32
By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him
1 JOHN 4;9
But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name.
JOHN 20;31
YES AS WE CAN SEE THE BIBLE TEACHES US THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD ,I AM SEARCHING LIKE MAD AND THE BIBLE DOES NOT TEACH THAT JESUS IS GOD . ITS NOT THERE thats because i have not taken on the preconcieved manmade doctrine THE TRINITY ..............
i only take in pure bible teachings with no manmade doctrines to cloud my thought .
if people do that they are more inline with Gods thoughts .
Pico
Well-Known Member
Re: Positions Taken and Sample Statements
Fine. To each his own.
thats because i have not taken on the preconcieved manmade doctrine THE TRINITY ..............
Fine. To each his own.
M
mee
Guest
Re: Positions Taken and Sample Statements
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. John 17;3
its all in the bible and listening to Jesus is the way to go
very true
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. John 17;3
its all in the bible and listening to Jesus is the way to go
Re: Positions Taken and Sample Statements
I think the JW problem is the confuse the humanity of Jesus — which is no different from the humanity of you and I — with the Sonship of Jesus, which is Divine.
Jesus is man, and the Son of God, begotten through Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit ... a man yet one with the Power of God, and the Authority of God, He is one with God, and God is one with Him (John 10:30) ... when one sees Jesus, one sees God (John 6:46), furthermore, no-one sees God, unless Jesus decrees it (John 1:8), and no-one gets to God unless Jesus allows it (John 14:6) ... and Jesus was before the world was created, and will be after its end ... it was through Him that all things came to be, in heaven and on earth (Colossians 1:16) so whilst "the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28), nevertheless "in him, it hath well pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell" (1:19) "And through him (the Son) to reconcile all things unto himself (the Father)" (1:20).
... which means without Jesus, man would not know God ... which means God makes Himself known through Jesus, and through Jesus we are known to Him ...
... so if Jesus is not God, it would appear that God is heavily dependent upon a man to realise His plan, His plenitude and His providence ... which makes God dependent upon man, which is logically a nonsense ...
"Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell"
Colossians 1:19
The Catholic Church believes that the Word of God, transmitted in the Sacred Scriptures, is inviolate ... if it pleases the Father that 'all fullness' dwells in the Son, and the Son was not produced through any sense of organic reproduction, but by procession, then the question is, what limits God? Why is that which proceeds from God lesser than God?
That which proceeds from man is not the man, because man is finite, contingent and limited, and as much as he puts himself into his works, his works are always other than Himself ... whereas God is Infinite, Absolute and Unlimited, and what proceeds from Him is under no limitation, so what proceeds from God is God, without let or hindrance ... so the Son, who proceeds from God, who is God's Word and God's Wisdom ... is God ...
Why then, cannot 'all fullness' of the Father dwell in the Son?
Indeed, why cannot Jesus words, "All things are delivered to me by my Father" Matthew 11:27 be true, without condition?
Unless it is you who
We do not limit God, nor the Word of His Scripture.
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him".
John 3:16-17
"By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him"
1 JOHN 4:9
"But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name."
John 20:31
Are you so blind that you cannot see?
If Jesus is not God, then if we believe "in him", if we have faith "in him", if we have life "in him", if we are saved "in him" ... and He is not God, then we are not in God either, are we, we are in Him, not in God, aren't we? We don't believe in God, we believe in a man.
Furthermore, if we 'believe in him', 'have faith in him' and 'profess his name'
and He is not God, then the Jews are right, He is a false teacher, a heretic and a blasphemer, and we have transgressed a number of the Commandments.
Jesus says, "in my name" — not in my Father's name, or in God's name, but he speaks and acts, he rewrites the Decalogue in His own name (Matthew 5-7).
Think about it.
If Jesus is not God, then The New Testament is a blasphemy.
Thomas
I think the JW problem is the confuse the humanity of Jesus — which is no different from the humanity of you and I — with the Sonship of Jesus, which is Divine.
Jesus is man, and the Son of God, begotten through Mary by the power of the Holy Spirit ... a man yet one with the Power of God, and the Authority of God, He is one with God, and God is one with Him (John 10:30) ... when one sees Jesus, one sees God (John 6:46), furthermore, no-one sees God, unless Jesus decrees it (John 1:8), and no-one gets to God unless Jesus allows it (John 14:6) ... and Jesus was before the world was created, and will be after its end ... it was through Him that all things came to be, in heaven and on earth (Colossians 1:16) so whilst "the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28), nevertheless "in him, it hath well pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell" (1:19) "And through him (the Son) to reconcile all things unto himself (the Father)" (1:20).
... which means without Jesus, man would not know God ... which means God makes Himself known through Jesus, and through Jesus we are known to Him ...
... so if Jesus is not God, it would appear that God is heavily dependent upon a man to realise His plan, His plenitude and His providence ... which makes God dependent upon man, which is logically a nonsense ...
"Because in him, it hath well pleased the Father that all fulness should dwell"
Colossians 1:19
The Catholic Church believes that the Word of God, transmitted in the Sacred Scriptures, is inviolate ... if it pleases the Father that 'all fullness' dwells in the Son, and the Son was not produced through any sense of organic reproduction, but by procession, then the question is, what limits God? Why is that which proceeds from God lesser than God?
That which proceeds from man is not the man, because man is finite, contingent and limited, and as much as he puts himself into his works, his works are always other than Himself ... whereas God is Infinite, Absolute and Unlimited, and what proceeds from Him is under no limitation, so what proceeds from God is God, without let or hindrance ... so the Son, who proceeds from God, who is God's Word and God's Wisdom ... is God ...
Why then, cannot 'all fullness' of the Father dwell in the Son?
Indeed, why cannot Jesus words, "All things are delivered to me by my Father" Matthew 11:27 be true, without condition?
Unless it is you who
This is somewhat naive, Mee ... God is a spirit, the Father is a spirit, and before He became flesh, He was a spirit ... it's not a case of teaching, it's a case of being.
I think if one looks, it is everywhere ... "Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you." Matthew 7:7
In your opinion.
Yet you choose to limit what God can do.
We do not limit God, nor the Word of His Scripture.
"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him".
John 3:16-17
"By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him"
1 JOHN 4:9
"But these have been written down that YOU may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, YOU may have life by means of his name."
John 20:31
Are you so blind that you cannot see?
If Jesus is not God, then if we believe "in him", if we have faith "in him", if we have life "in him", if we are saved "in him" ... and He is not God, then we are not in God either, are we, we are in Him, not in God, aren't we? We don't believe in God, we believe in a man.
Furthermore, if we 'believe in him', 'have faith in him' and 'profess his name'
and He is not God, then the Jews are right, He is a false teacher, a heretic and a blasphemer, and we have transgressed a number of the Commandments.
Jesus says, "in my name" — not in my Father's name, or in God's name, but he speaks and acts, he rewrites the Decalogue in His own name (Matthew 5-7).
Think about it.
If Jesus is not God, then The New Testament is a blasphemy.
Thomas