Challenge - Prove it!!

Tao_Equus said:
Neurology, genetics and psychiatry combined give a very good explanation as to just why we seem predisposed to religions. They do so without invoking God. What they say can be studied and tested and repeated. It carries weight. Its clinical and unbiased. I know what I would rather place my trust in.
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Excellent: which neurologist, geneticist, or psychiatrist have you proved is true and trust_worthy? Would you say he/she also loved you and placed faith in you?
 
wil said:
collective consciousness on steroids
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:D I'll go for that! So, instead of saying "God" we could just say collective consciousness, or super consciousness. In that case IT is a naturally occurring thing as opposed to super natural? Is everyone good with that?

Chris
 
Proof?
What this reality actually is, let alone a God that may or may not exist therein, is beyond human understanding. We can use reason and logic to explain what we experience with our senses, still, we can never really know exactly what we are experiencing because there are just too many unknowns, and there always will be because infinity is a big place….

We Don’t have to be afraid of the unknown stuff anymore but we are. This will change in time and so will our perspective on what this reality actually is. As humanity evolves ( I feel that there is no final destination, just infinite motion in all directions) humanity will outgrow its foolish/childish ways.
Still, we may never know what this reality actually is… once again, infinity is a big place….

I've yet to see any proof that there is a God interested in humanity. But that is not proof in and of itself that there is no God…. Who knows what's really going on around here, I don’t, so I seek answers everywhere.

I've recently began astral traveling at night and I hope to find some answers there. I have to say, it’s a cool thing to do… I'm enjoying it… and even though I’m very excited about this new experience(astral traveling) I have no doubt that this surreal experience is natural somehow and can be explained using reason and logic. Still, until I figure out what is really happening while I am out of my body I will continue to seek the God that humanity prays to and also aliens, the departed, angels and spirit guides in hopes that they can answer some questions…. As of yet I am the only one inhabiting this strange astral place. If I stumble into the cosmic library while I’m astral traveling or bump into the proof fairy, I’ll share the experience….

Proof? That’s just a human word…. So is knowing and faith… words are the black holes of the universe, once you attempt to describe something you have passed the event horizon, you are lost.

Existence is what it is, no matter how or what we use to describe it.
infinite change….no two things are ever the same… and yet from my perspective I believe that space itself is the one thing that never changes that everything exists in and is made of the one infinite substance that is space... I also believe that space itself is conscious and self aware. Can I prove this?
Well... are we or are we not existing in space? Are we or are we not conscious? Are we or are we not filled with space? Are we or are we not filled wtih conscious and unconscious thoughts? What holds us together? space and consciousness… it’s all about the space man….
~Bruno
 
Good post Bruno!

I was just laughing imagining this conversation:

"What exactly is God?"

"Well, it's, uh, everything. You know, like...super, duper consciousness."

"Oh, O.K, 'cause I definitely believe that everything exists."

"Cool, come to my church."

"Will Everything be there?"

"Sure! Well, some of it anyway."

Chris
 
cyberpi said:
Excellent: which neurologist, geneticist, or psychiatrist have you proved is true and trust_worthy? Would you say he/she also loved you and placed faith in you?
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Real live ones that actually exist. Cat scans for example show particular regions of the brain lighting up when stimulated by religious prompts. This becomes especially pronounced in certain types of depressive/delusional mental illness.

Tao
 
bananabrain said:
i assume nobody is claiming that any of this is *my* fault.

sally, as george galloway said to saddam hussein, "i salute your courage, your indefatigability" (hur hur hur) - and i will add, i utterly admire your intellectual honesty. to stand up and state (as i will freely do) that belief is so wholly personal that it cannot be *proved* is a stand for sanity and clarity of thought. have a smoked salmon bagel.

b'shalom

bananabrain
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Hi BB

Ooo a smoked salmon bagel, thank you very much, I will have a mint tea with that. Shall we stand in the corner together and munch our bagels and titter as people fail to get it?? I have been a little poorly, hence not posting for 3 weeks, and expected to come back and see a very bare thread - gosh was I wrong.

Okay, what would happen if G-d decided to manifest Himself between 4 and 5 oclock today, in a way that every creature on earth could have no doubt about what they had seen?

Here is my guess, within 24 hours scientists would be publishing papers to state that mass hallucination had taken effect due to the effects of global warming or polluted drinking water or whatever, different religions and sects within those religions would begin to argue about what they had seen (one would say it was blue and the other would insist it was more greeny blue), each religion would then try to prove that the manifestation had matched their 'version' of G-d the most, then the arguments about what is 'proof' would begin as we would have to define that first before we could all agree if we had seen the same thing ....... and on and on it would go.

I believe in Allah, I believe the Quran is from Him and whilst I see 'proofs' in the Quran I have to accept that to others the Quran is just a book with some words in. My faith comes from my heart, not a book and my heart is entirely individual therefore my faith is also.

Salaam
 
Muslimwoman said:
I believe in Allah, I believe the Quran is from Him and whilst I see 'proofs' in the Quran I have to accept that to others the Quran is just a book with some words in. My faith comes from my heart, not a book and my heart is entirely individual therefore my faith is also.
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Assalam u alaikum wa rahmatulahi wa baakatuhu,

The way I look at it.... To you it is a book from the one God Allah (azza wa jal) It is what gives you your faith, your hope, your spark for love... To others perhaps it is just a book... What others make of it, I don't believe matters that much... There is so much good that comes from it, and if it inspires you that is awesome.... That is what I think we should focus on, example yes I have faith and read the Qu'ran but that isn't in honesty where my spark for love and inspiration comes from.... It comes from an idea, an idea what the world could be.... Now others may laugh or find my idea wrong, but that shouldn't matter to me, as it is helping to improve me... I know, not the standard way of a muslim lol... But, since when have I been standard...

We all have different sources, these sources inspire, they do not shape.... We shape the faith, they inspire the faith, and where can this inspiration come from?

The key is -something- will inspire us, something will feed us positive feelings and advice, and be it or be it not from a god or gods or Allah (azza wa jal) or Bob from down the way..... In any form! Book or anything.... It is important to US and helps US, we need not be challenged to "prove it" Because surley, in our actions, in our words, in everything we do, it should be clearly seen to show, we have changed, we have "upgraded".... So, if it is good enough for you... It is good enough.


Ma salama...
 
Tao_Equus said:
Real live ones that actually exist. Cat scans for example show particular regions of the brain lighting up when stimulated by religious prompts. This becomes especially pronounced in certain types of depressive/delusional mental illness.
Tao
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Should I give my wife a CAT scan to prove whether or not she loves me, or trusts me, or tells me the Truth? Which Geneticist, Neurologist, or Psychiatrist have you given a CAT scan to prove whether or not they were truthful and trust_worthy? Well?
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
As soon as someone defines for me exactly what God is I'll be happy to render an opinion on the existence, or non existence of it. Any takers on that?

Chris
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Would the opinion be fabricated from what you wish to believe, or from what you have seen?
 
I thought I already did an answer based on the definition of God. I thought it was pretty good. I didnt get much comment on it. Was it too scientific? Because Im about to toss in another totally different one and its even more scientific
 
cyberpi said:
Should I give my wife a CAT scan to prove whether or not she loves me, or trusts me, or tells me the Truth? Which Geneticist, Neurologist, or Psychiatrist have you given a CAT scan to prove whether or not they were truthful and trust_worthy? Well?
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Just how do you expect me to respond to that?
 
gp1628 said:
I thought I already did an answer based on the definition of God. I thought it was pretty good. I didnt get much comment on it. Was it too scientific? Because Im about to toss in another totally different one and its even more scientific
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Toss away matey... we love a good toss around here :D
 
cyberpi said:
Would the opinion be fabricated from what you wish to believe, or from what you have seen?
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I suppose that seeing is colored by one's fabrications. That's a good question, actually.

I can't say whether I think something does or doesn't exist until I know exactly what it is, or is supposed to be. What, specifically, is the object of inquiry? If one can't say, with specificity, what God is, then how can we decide if it exists?

Chris
 
flowperson said:
Flu bug ?
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I wish it was Flow, I have a touch of pneumonia and the drugs are making me very sick at the moment. Am on the mend now though. :) Mwah

17th Angel said:
we need not be challenged to "prove it"
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wa aleykum salaam brother

You are correct, if our faith is personal. All I am saying is that if we are going to take our faith outside of ourselves and insist that others believe as we do or tell them they are going to hell for their beliefs then we should have some pretty strong proof of our beliefs to back us up.

Hmm, page 6 now I think and still not a shred of proof ;) I am enjoying this.

gp1628 said:
I thought I already did an answer based on the definition of God. I thought it was pretty good. I didnt get much comment on it. Was it too scientific? Because Im about to toss in another totally different one and its even more scientific
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It was a very good definition but the definition of G-d is not proof of his existence or proof that your beliefs are correct and mine are wrong. :)
 
Muslimwoman said:
I wish it was Flow, I have a touch of pneumonia and the drugs are making me very sick at the moment. Am on the mend now though. :) Mwah
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Get well soon!

You are correct, if our faith is personal. All I am saying is that if we are going to take our faith outside of ourselves and insist that others believe as we do or tell them they are going to hell for their beliefs then we should have some pretty strong proof of our beliefs to back us up.
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There are the fruits of our Spirit, but it might take some discernment to distinguish between a real, good fruit, and a wax fruit, put out for show. ;)

Hmm, page 6 now I think and still not a shred of proof ;) I am enjoying this.



It was a very good definition but the definition of G-d is not proof of his existence or proof that your beliefs are correct and mine are wrong. :)
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Wouldn't pinning a definition on God be limiting God? We might be able to describe God's attributes, but can we, or should we, try to go beyond this by actually trying to define God? Isn't this where we start running into trouble?
 
seattlegal said:
Wouldn't pinning a definition on God be limiting God? We might be able to describe God's attributes, but can we, or should we, try to go beyond this by actually trying to define God? Isn't this where we start running into trouble?
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It was this part I liked, as it doesn't limit Him at all:

That would mean unlimited space for things to exist in, unlimited time for them to exist, and no restrictions.
 
Muslimwoman said:
wa aleykum salaam brother
if we are going to take our faith outside of ourselves and insist that others believe as we do or tell them they are going to hell for their beliefs then we should have some pretty strong proof of our beliefs to back us up.
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Assaalamu alaykum....

One thing we should look at though sister.... To insist on others to believe as we do.... Is trying to use numbers to replace faith. That is how I see it.. And of course to do this is to fool ourselves, it is a gift that is optional, we choose to take it.... So others must do so, they must choose to take what they wish without us placing any insists or threats... Even if we believe we have this "proof" It is up to everyone to find and accept their own evidence. That is the beauty of it, and faith.... Faith doesn't need any proof in my humble opinion.

Muslimwoman said:
Hmm, page 6 now I think and still not a shred of proof ;) I am enjoying this.
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Yet plenty of faith? :)



Ma salama.
 
17th Angel said:
Even if we believe we have this "proof" It is up to everyone to find and accept their own evidence. That is the beauty of it, and faith.... Faith doesn't need any proof in my humble opinion.
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Exactly, faith is entirely individual and cannot be forced on someone. Does Allah (swt) not teach us there can be no compulsion in religion? It would be easy to force someone to pray 5 times a day and wear hijab but does that make them a Muslim? Me thinks not, it is what is in our hearts that makes us Muslim or Christian or Jew or whatever.

17th Angel said:
Yet plenty of faith? :)
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Absolutely but it is 'faith'. I have never seen an angel but I believe they exist. I have never met the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) but I believe he was a Prophet inspired by Allah (swt). I believe that when I die I shall be judged for my deeds in this life but no angel has ever turned up and told me so - I have faith in something I cannot see or prove but that faith is individual to me.

Is my faith the same as yours? We cannot say yes or no, I cannot see into your heart and you cannot see into mine.



Ma salama.[/quote]
 
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