Challenge - Prove it!!

seattlegal said:
Hide and seek is fun! :D
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Yes, it is, but that's a muuuuut point.:D


Actually, my point (though obscure and most likely moot also) is that as long as there is a someone, and possible "proof" we place ourselves outside of that which we intend to show. Further, if this God is everything, then we couldn't possibly be outside it no matter what we think or do, therefore the seeking of "IT" means we are all quite possibly insane, or at the least self-deluded.
 
Muslimwoman said:
So here is my challenge.

Without refering to scriptures or religious reference books at all prove that G-d exists and that your religion is the only correct form of worshipping G-d.
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First as I do not believe the second portion is true, I see no reason to attempt to 'prove' it. I believe there are many methods of connecting to G!d and don't believe G!d requires worship.

Now all of my proofs of G!d are not found in scripture, but they are all considered anecdotal by others, ie personal life experiences.
 
In the aid of this quest or challenge for seeking a proof of something, I would like to submit a couple of statements which, if they hold up to scutiny by means of individual experience and understanding... might help with the quest:

1. No set of words, and no amount of information about something can ever constitute a proof of the something.
2. A real proof of anything is only obtainable on an individual basis.
3. What is termed a scientific proof or a logical or mathematical proof always relies on the possibly errant assumption that underlying presumptions, postulates, measurements, physical constants, or physical laws, etc... are universal. But, given statement #1 and #2 there can still be individual re-prove-ment in your corner of this universe.

Anyone care to disagree? Consider it my challenge, which might alter MW's challenge, but is not meant to deter anyone from seeking proof.

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I will tell you, that the proof of God exists. I have proof. Not just a belief. I can not give the proof though because it is not mine to give. I can give the witness or testimony of the interaction, and I can request more. I can share the logic, and my regurgitation of the history, but it is not possible for me to give the past as if it were the present. I submit that the proof is necessarily between the individual and God. This last month even, this last week even, just a few days ago... I sought and received undeniable proof by every means of the word 'proof': real, external, and internal, two-way, physical communication with an unconfined and willing God. I was not seeking proof, I was seeking his will with something. But it does prove yet again for me by every sense of the word that God is real, that God exists, and a small little bit of God's judgment and will. A small bit, but on the question of existance I would be an outright liar, or a hypocrite, if I ever say or claim that God does not exist. As a child I did not believe that God was here. Without evidence I could claim to be uncertain. But I know that he is, and I can not undo that now. I can no more remove the fact that God exists than I can eat breakfast tomorrow on the moon... nor do I want to. Neither do I personally want anyone to believe anything on my account... seek your own proof in the manner that you think works. I merely tell you it is worth the pursuit. The quest is good.
 
Nothing is ever created from an explosion, except for the universe with all its intricacies & delicacies. Doesnt make sense.

If the explosive power of BB was a fraction less, all the stuff would have been gone back into some knid of singularity under its own gravitation. If it was a fraction more, there would have been no matter at all, only scattered quantum states. That was definitely an intelligent explosion.

Scientists dont believe what isnt tangible. But then...what isnt tangible can exist. There is a possibility. For milleneums, electromagnetism wasent tangible, but it did exist. Same is the case with viruses.
 
cyperpi said:
I will tell you, that the proof of God exists. I have proof. Not just a belief. I can not give the proof though because it is not mine to give. I can give the witness or testimony of the interaction, and I can request more. I can share the logic, and my regurgitation of the history, but it is not possible for me to give the past as if it were the present. I submit that the proof is necessarily between the individual and God. This last month even, this last week even, just a few days ago... I sought and received undeniable proof by every means of the word 'proof': real, external, and internal, two-way, physical communication with an unconfined and willing God. I was not seeking proof, I was seeking his will with something. But it does prove yet again for me by every sense of the word that God is real, that God exists, and a small little bit of God's judgment and will. A small bit, but on the question of existance I would be an outright liar, or a hypocrite, if I ever say or claim that God does not exist. As a child I did not believe that God was here. Without evidence I could claim to be uncertain. But I know that he is, and I can not undo that now. I can no more remove the fact that God exists than I can eat breakfast tomorrow on the moon... nor do I want to. Neither do I personally want anyone to believe anything on my account... seek your own proof in the manner that you think works. I merely tell you it is worth the pursuit. The quest is good.
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I'm intrigued. You've piqued my interest. I am open to know what the nature of your proof is. Was it a physical manifestation of God, a vision, an unusual circumstance or coincidence that cannot be explained, or was it answer to a specific prayer, or all of the above?

I hope you don't mind me asking. If details are too personal, perhaps you can PM me or just make generalizations of what you experienced, please. I am mindful of you exhortation that we need to seek for ourselves and that I am in full agreement, we all have our own path. And it is precisely that that I ask for further details, in some hope that I might seek in some same manner as you. I'm also fully aware that God may or may not reveal Himself in the same manner, but maybe with your testimony I could be pushed a little closer to the confidence you have in God to know that God is there.
 
farhan said:
If the explosive power of BB was a fraction less, all the stuff would have been gone back into some knid of singularity under its own gravitation.
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i assume nobody is claiming that any of this is *my* fault.

sally, as george galloway said to saddam hussein, "i salute your courage, your indefatigability" (hur hur hur) - and i will add, i utterly admire your intellectual honesty. to stand up and state (as i will freely do) that belief is so wholly personal that it cannot be *proved* is a stand for sanity and clarity of thought. have a smoked salmon bagel.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
Dondi said:
... and that I am in full agreement, we all have our own path. And it is precisely that that I ask for further details, in some hope that I might seek in some same manner as you.
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Last year I hired a couple of people directly from the street. No resumes, no interviews, no hand-picked relationships. I expect there will be problems of one type or another with individuals from the street, and I have been testing myself applying the concepts of Love, Faith, and Truth that I personally believe in. It is very educational... all manner of issues can crop up. One person was right off the side of the road with a sign asking for gas money or a job. The other was in a mission going door to door, which I was impressed with because they would confess their situation and ask for help, living jointly in a mission house supported entirely by the public and maintained by those staying there. But this person has felonies, knows the addiction of all manner of drugs, has dealed, lived richly, and lived on the street, etc... He has been clean of heroin and other illegal drugs for 18+ months for various reasons, and I would attribute that to finding God in jail. He had an outstanding warrant for a possession of paraphernalia, got picked up, and I bailed him out of jail last year. The district court let him off on fines based on his story of recovery. With me, he mostly drives around site to site with some expensive equipment, and other general labor, and this job does require drug and alcohol testing. I have seen the spirit helping this individual. For example all I had to do was think of an issue sometimes and it would surface in him without me saying anything.

I had a moment of pause last week as it felt like it was turning towards foolishness. This person's driving is kind of like you might expect from a 30 year old who spent 10 years doing drugs. My prayer was to ask God if he still wanted me to employ this person. I will forgo sharing the way in which he answered me. I figured if involvement is not helping this person, it is starting to get foolish, because I could easily hire someone more suited for the job. What shook my confidence a bit is that I turned the driving over to him while we were at a rest stop last Thursday, and then moments later I opened my eyes to the oncoming headlights because he exited the rest stop in the wrong direction, overlooked the sign, and then proceeded onto the freeway in the wrong direction. Underneath that though there is a general problem of simply making assumptions, going on gut reactions instead of taking the time to make conscious decisions, record the reasoning, and be responsible for it. There are other issues too, but in terms of being educated and seeing God... priceless.
 
Sounds like you almost "saw" God at that rest stop. :eek:

It is still unclear to me how this constitutes proof of God for you. While I commend you for giving someone with a dubious past second chance in life by employing him, much as Paul did with Onesimus in the book of Philemon, you are taking a chance on someone who now has almost got the both of you killed. Are you saying that God told you to hire him anyway? Or was the fact that you escaped harm from the incident proof? Or something else?

I will say that God does answer in ways contrary to what we would think is common sense, as He demonstrated in various places in Scripture. I wonder if He does so to catch us off guard or surprise us (that whole chosing "the foolish things of the world to confound the wise" thing). I often find myself a victim of coincidences that sometimes produces pleasant results.
 
In most religions God is the beginning and the end, and created all things.

So a scientist might say that God is the limitations on how much space there is, how much time there is, and what can be created. And of course a scientist would remove God, and therefore those limitations.

That would mean unlimited space for things to exist in, unlimited time for them to exist, and no restrictions.

That would tend to mean that anything could exist. In fact, everything would exist. Anything that our miniscule little minds could possibly come up with and more would exist.

99% of the planet believe in God.
 
Look we should prove it by the thing which is mostly beleive at that time!! At the time of Moses(PBUH) magic was at its peak so Allah gave him miracles!!!
At the time of Quran Arabic language was at its peak so Allah gave them Quran which was highest of highest in literature of Arabic!! now is the age of science so i will put forward many signs of science which Quran have and i have i think written them some where in these forums
 
Dondi said:
Sounds like you almost "saw" God at that rest stop. :eek:
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I apologize for not replying, Dondi. That event was a little too current at the time. The next day I had prayed for guidance of his will, and I received some information. I prayed only within my mind and the answer came in the form of two phone calls from two strangers, perfectly timed as I had asked, and in a manner communicated to me before. It is still a matter of measurement statistics... but when it gets to be over some threshold it becomes really impressive.

There are other ways that I have seen someone behind the curtains, some more subjective or objective than others. I estimate all though will appear subjective on paper.
 
gp1628 said:
99% of the planet believe in God.
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But of that 99% how many are simply the product of cultural indoctrination ? This is the key. Its like saying the west is Christian and the middle east is Muslim, its true but its deeper truth is that mainstream religious concepts are without exception geopolitical baggage. This alone calls into question the integrity of these religions. 99% of the population may well believe in God. But perhaps you could rephrase it that only 1% of the population are not superstitious.

tao
 
Tao_Equus said:
But of that 99% how many are simply the product of cultural indoctrination ? This is the key. Its like saying the west is Christian and the middle east is Muslim, its true but its deeper truth is that mainstream religious concepts are without exception geopolitical baggage. This alone calls into question the integrity of these religions. 99% of the population may well believe in God. But perhaps you could rephrase it that only 1% of the population are not superstitious.

tao
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Actually in this case it doesnt matter. Its a scientific proof. The only requirement is that our meager little minds can conceive of it. With unlimited time, space, and no limits on creation then all things would exist. Therefore it would apply equally to gods, demons, unicorns, and jabba the hut.

So if God exists then God exists. And by this series of assumptions then if God does not exist then God would also exist.
 
Tao_Equus said:
But of that 99% how many are simply the product of cultural indoctrination ? This is the key. Its like saying the west is Christian and the middle east is Muslim, its true but its deeper truth is that mainstream religious concepts are without exception geopolitical baggage. This alone calls into question the integrity of these religions. 99% of the population may well believe in God. But perhaps you could rephrase it that only 1% of the population are not superstitious.

tao
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I'm still wondering how Tao claims to disprove that God exists. Surely then I might see the assumed error?! :confused: :rolleyes:
 
gp1628 said:
Actually in this case it doesnt matter. Its a scientific proof. The only requirement is that our meager little minds can conceive of it. With unlimited time, space, and no limits on creation then all things would exist. Therefore it would apply equally to gods, demons, unicorns, and jabba the hut.

So if God exists then God exists. And by this series of assumptions then if God does not exist then God would also exist.
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Playing, like Douglas Adams, with probability/infinity is fun. But to say everything everyone ever thinks or says is true is meaningless in our collective human struggle (to survive our own potential to destroy ourselves) is just philosophical musing is not my point. God is an unprovable notion that has far more compelling evidence of being a product of human social engineering than of being a genuine expression of mans appreciation or knowledge of a creator. The challenge is to "prove it". There is not a shred of proof yet. But there are mountains of proof of the wholesale abuse of this notion.

Tao
 
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