Big Bang and Expanding of Universe

[islamis4u]

Ayats in the Glorious Quran out of which more than a thousand speak about science.
As far as Quran and modern Science is concerned, in the field of ‘Astronomy’, the Scientists, the Astronomers, a few decades earlier, they described, how the universe came into existence - They call it the ‘Big Bang’. And they said… ‘Initially there was one primary nebula, which later on it separated with a Big Bang, which gave rise to Galaxies, Stars, Sun and the Earth, we live in.’ This information is given in a nutshell in the Glorious Quran, in Surah Ambiya, Ch. 21, Verse 30, which says…. (Arabic).... Do not the unbelievers see…? …. (Arabic)…. ‘That the heavens and the earth were joined together, and we clove them asunder.’ Imagine this information which we came to know recently, the Quran mentions 14 hundred years ago. When I was in school, I had learned that the Sun in respect to the Earth - it was stationary - the Earth and the Moon, they rotated about in axis, but the sun was stationary. But when I read a Verse of the Quran saying, in Surah Al–Ambiya, Ch.. 21 Verse 33, it says…. (Arabic). … ‘It is Allah who has created the night and the day.’…. (Arabic)…. The sun and the moon…. (Arabic)…. Each one travelling in an orbit with its own motion. Now Alhamdulillah, modern science has confirmed the Quranic statement. The Arabic word used in the Quran is ‘Yasbahoon’, which describes the motion of a moving body. When it refers to a spherical body, it means it is rotating about its own axis. So Qur’an says the sun and the Moon, they revolve as well as rotate about their own axis. Today we have come to know that the Sun takes approximately 25 days to complete one rotation. It was Edvin Hubbel who discovered that the universe is expanding. The Quran says in Surah Dhariyat, Ch. 51, Verse No. 47, that…‘We have created the expanding universe’ - The vastness of space. The Arabic word ‘Mohsiana’ refers to ‘vastness’ – ‘the expanding universe.’

May writing about this topic again was not to prove that Quran is book of science, it has some many points which are established now.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Bollocks.

This is the Science section so I need not pussy foot around the issue here. You are drunk on religion. What you say shows a deep and profound ignorance of what science is. It is a foolish self congratulatory masturbation of your own thinking and has nothing to do with any book.
And the Q'uran itself is the bastard progeny of much older writings of "men" that are equally meaningless. Ineffable!! No. Its highly f-able.

 

[islamis4u]

Bollocks.

This is the Science section so I need not pussy foot around the issue here. You are drunk on religion. What you say shows a deep and profound ignorance of what science is. It is a foolish self congratulatory masturbation of your own thinking and has nothing to do with any book.
And the Q'uran itself is the bastard progeny of much older writings of "men" that are equally meaningless. Ineffable!! No. Its highly f-able.

I would just have to say that please correct your words and do speak rightly you people do not have any respect for other religion you are just.................................................................................... It was science and Book of which i was talking about!!!

Take your words back or talk with your logic man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[gp1628]

No offense Tao_Equus but did you read what he wrote?
Im fairly versed in science and I saw no problem in it.

By the way Islamis4u: the Big Bang is being replaced with an ever expanding universe (a new Quantum Theory version) altho I dont see a reason why that would change what you wrote.

 

[Quahom1]

Bollocks.

This is the Science section so I need not pussy foot around the issue here. You are drunk on religion. What you say shows a deep and profound ignorance of what science is. It is a foolish self congratulatory masturbation of your own thinking and has nothing to do with any book.
And the Q'uran itself is the bastard progeny of much older writings of "men" that are equally meaningless. Ineffable!! No. Its highly f-able.

Tao, a man is entitled to his belief and opinion, as are you. But does that mean one must put down another because the two don't agree? This isn't the first time, or the first "religion" you have gone after. And it isn't like you to do this. Please consider the affects you have on others, particularly when you are irritated, and voice such.

v/r

Q

 

[Lecter]

Good post islamis4u

What I'd want people to at least pay attention to, is that the accounts of creation are a bit different regarding the Old Testament and the Qur'an.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Wow... I am shocked at my own post. I offer my humble apologies for my impolite and aggressive response to your post Islamis4u. Though it fairly represents my own beliefs there was no call for such invective.

Perhaps the reason I came back in such a heated way is that sometimes I get fed up of Muslims trying this "its all in the Q'uran" nonsense. It is not in the Q'uran at all. It is a reinterpretation by some recent scholars of the Q'uran.

For example:
(Ali Sina) Dr. Naik claims that the verse 51:47 talks about the expanding universe. This is not so. Muhammad is simply saying that the universe is vast and not that it is expanding. This verse reads:

وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ​

See how this is translated:
YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
The fact that the universe is vast is prosaic and obvious. There is no mention of expanding universe in this verse. Any illiterate man could look around himself and see the world is vast. To the ancient people even the Earth looked vast. To us it looks very small. Some modern translators of the Quran have tried to give a scientific spin to the Quran and have translated the word continuity stating that the universe is expanding. This is not true. The word [FONT=&quot] مُوسِعُونَhas no such connotation.[/FONT]

 

[Tao_Equus]

Islamis4u, (well firstly it is not and never will be), every few months on CR we get some Islamic propagandist coming in trying to pimp the ineffable nature of the Q'uran and how it prophesied or told of everything from the big bang to baked beans. On each an every occasion a little research shows it to be utter rubbish. Perhaps this is why I am a bit impatient when I see it. Its that "not again" feeling.

You, not surprisingly, took offence at my outright attack on the authenticity of the Q'uran but though I wish I had phrased it in a far less offensive way I stand by the bones of what I said. The Q'uran is mostly a reworking of older material. That is clear as daylight to anyone who picks it up, without a predisposed bias.

gp1628

I would have no problem either if it had any basis in fact. But it is reworked propaganda to try and reinforce the untruth that a book compiled by politicians is the work of God. At the time the Q'uran was written astronomy, mathematics and other sciences were flourishing in the middle east where in Europe we were in the dark ages of book burners. But analysis of the science of the area and time shows it to be as expected. primitive and not as advanced as earlier Chinese and Vedic schools. You may welcome the imposition of fictions into the science thread but I try to stay where science demands me to stay, sceptical and critical and always on the lookout for a false proposition. for your info there is a superb thread somewhere on Big Bang theory, (of which i am a sceptic).

Tao

 

[islamis4u]

Wow... I am shocked at my own post. I offer my humble apologies for my impolite and aggressive response to your post Islamis4u. Though it fairly represents my own beliefs there was no call for such invective.

Perhaps the reason I came back in such a heated way is that sometimes I get fed up of Muslims trying this "its all in the Q'uran" nonsense. It is not in the Q'uran at all. It is a reinterpretation by some recent scholars of the Q'uran.

For example:
(Ali Sina) Dr. Naik claims that the verse 51:47 talks about the expanding universe. This is not so. Muhammad is simply saying that the universe is vast and not that it is expanding. This verse reads:

وَالسَّمَاء بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ​

See how this is translated:
YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.
The fact that the universe is vast is prosaic and obvious. There is no mention of expanding universe in this verse. Any illiterate man could look around himself and see the world is vast. To the ancient people even the Earth looked vast. To us it looks very small. Some modern translators of the Quran have tried to give a scientific spin to the Quran and have translated the word continuity stating that the universe is expanding. This is not true. The word [FONT=&quot] مُوسِعُونَhas no such connotation.[/FONT]

The expansion of the Universe is the most imposing discovery of modern
science. Today it is a firmly established concept and the only debate
centres around the way this is taking place.
.
The following verse of the Qur' an (sura 51, verse 47) where God is
speaking, may perhaps be compared with modern ideas:
"The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily. We are expanding it."
'Heaven' is the translation of the word sama' and this is exactly the extra-
terrestrial world that is meant.
'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present participle
musi'una of the verb ausa'a meaning 'to make wider, more spacious, to
extend, to expand'.
Some translators who were unable to grasp the meaning of the latter
provide translations that appear to me to be mistaken, e.g. "we give
generously" (R. Blachère). Others sense the meaning, but are afraid to
commit themselves: Hamidullah in his translation of the Qur'an talks of the
widening of the heavens and space, but he includes a question mark.
Finally, there are those who arm themselves with authorized scientific
opinion in their commentaries and give the meaning stated here. This is true
in the case of the Muntakab, a book of commentaries edited by the
Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs, Cairo. It refers to the expansion of
the Universe in totally unambiguous terms.

As you did not answer other may be you do not have right answers.

 

[Celeritas]

islamis4u:

i'm curious. what does the koran say of membranes?

in case you are unfamiliar with this concept....

scientists are being to find indications that the big bang is limited in scope due to membranes.

imagine a loaf of bread cut into slices. each slice represents a membrane contained in what scientists whimsically refer to as "the bulk". our universe represents but one membrane. according to string theory there are many membranes. it explains why gravitational force is weaker than electromagnetism, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force. because gravitions are indicated to be a certain type of string, they are able to escape from our membrane, meaning gravity is weaker because it is spread out across the entire "bulk"

this provides string theory the grounds to state that the big bang was actually a collision between two membranes, sparking the creation of another membrane and this happens all the time.

although experimental proof of string theory have not yet been provided, with the activation of CERN's Large Hadron Collider, that problem should be cleared up.


I don't personally support string theory as proofs haven't been provided, but what if it is proven?

what would that do to the interpretations of the koran stated above?

for further reading I suggest:

Hyperspace by Dr. Michio Kaku
the Elegant Universe by Dr. Brian Greene
Warped Passages by Dr. Lisa Randall

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

what i find quite unusual is how Muslims have adopted Rapid Inflationary Theory the so-called Big Bang as the correct theory for the origin of the universe when this has not been established.

my question always goes back to that... how have they determined that the other theories regarding the origin of the cosmos are incorrect? did they do the math on the No Boundary Proposal and conclude that Drs. Hawking and Turok are wrong? if so, how.. where's the work?

have they determined that our universe isn't a quantum fluxuation from a 12 dimensional super string? how did they do that and why doesn't the cosmology community know of these things?

bascially the whole apologetic is based on emotional appeal and has nothing to do with science even though its dressed up in a shiny scientific veneer. it is, in the end, something which can only be useful for those that already believe.

that said, this thread is rather lacking on science and is heavy on Muslim apologetics. let's get back to science here and leave the Muslim apologetics for the Muslim forum.

metta,

~v

 

[Quahom1]

The expansion of the Universe is the most imposing discovery of modern
science. Today it is a firmly established concept and the only debate
centres around the way this is taking place.
.
The following verse of the Qur' an (sura 51, verse 47) where God is
speaking, may perhaps be compared with modern ideas:
"The heaven, We have built it with power. Verily. We are expanding it."
'Heaven' is the translation of the word sama' and this is exactly the extra-
terrestrial world that is meant.
'We are expanding it' is the translation of the plural present participle
musi'una of the verb ausa'a meaning 'to make wider, more spacious, to
extend, to expand'.
Some translators who were unable to grasp the meaning of the latter
provide translations that appear to me to be mistaken, e.g. "we give
generously" (R. Blachère). Others sense the meaning, but are afraid to
commit themselves: Hamidullah in his translation of the Qur'an talks of the
widening of the heavens and space, but he includes a question mark.
Finally, there are those who arm themselves with authorized scientific
opinion in their commentaries and give the meaning stated here. This is true
in the case of the Muntakab, a book of commentaries edited by the
Supreme Council for Islamic Affairs, Cairo. It refers to the expansion of
the Universe in totally unambiguous terms.

As you did not answer other may be you do not have right answers.

I um have another opinion. Care to know it?

The atom has components which circle each other, yet the atom moves in other directions, yet the atom as a unit remains incorrupt. The earth belongs to a solar system, containing other planets and satellites, which constantly close in on and move away from each other. It may look like it, but the solar system isn't expanding, just moving. Same can be said of the Milkyway galaxy. It is simply moving in a great circle, while it moves through the universe. So, it is spinning on it's own axis, and projecting itself on a path through the cosmos...agreed?

Now, if the atom works in a circle/sphere, and the solar system does the same, and the galaxy does the same...what makes us think that the universe does not act in the same fashion (as micro, so macro)? In otherwords, no expansion, just movement around..."something" at the core...

Hey, scientist have only recently discovered the "lateral" movement of the things within the universe. We don't have the ability to observe the universe from outside our perspective...yet.

Something to spin, er expand, er um, chew on...

v/r

Q

 

[emet]

The Big Bang model is almost universally accepted now. String theory and other theories simply try to explain why the Big Bang happened.

There are tons of measurements that confirm the Hot Inflationary Big Bang theory. WMAP has measured the cosmic microwave background radiation. The temperature and variation and temperature are exactly what the inflationary hot big bang theory predicted.

Because light takes time to travel, when we look back at distances of 13 or so Billion years, we looking at the beginning of the universe. We can directly observe the universe at each point in time from 300,000 years after the Big Band (when the background radiation formed) through 13 billion years up to the present. And at every point in the measurement process, observations confirm the big bang.

From the light an object gives off, you can tell a lot about that object. You can the speed at which it moving away from you. You can what it is made of from its emission spectra. You can tell what temperature it is by what light it emitted. You can tell the composition of any material that lies between you and the object that emitted the light. They have taken measurements of the temperature of the universe at various points in time (by going to the right distance from us). The temperature of the universe has been cooling down over time precisely as the big bang expects. It started out white hot, and has cooled down to the present 3 degree K.

They have observed the chemical make up of the earlier universe and stars, and found it was almost entirely hydrogen and helium, just as big bang predicts. The universe has been steadily increasing in heavy elements from supernovas and novas. They have observed the first galaxies forming. They are forming just like the big bang predicts. They have observed the galaxies evolve over time. They are evolving just like the big bang and background microwave radiation predicts.

We have used gravitational lenses to take parallax type measurements of the distance of away galaxies that are several billions of light years away. The measurements confirm the expected distance from the Hubble expansion of the universe.

Everything in the universe screams that the universe was created in a spectacular event over 13 billion years ago, and that the universe has been steadily expanding eversince. String theory is simply an attempt to explain the event.

 

[Quahom1]

The Big Bang model is almost universally accepted now. String theory and other theories simply try to explain why the Big Bang happened.

There are tons of measurements that confirm the Hot Inflationary Big Bang theory. WMAP has measured the cosmic microwave background radiation. The temperature and variation and temperature are exactly what the inflationary hot big bang theory predicted.

Because light takes time to travel, when we look back at distances of 13 or so Billion years, we looking at the beginning of the universe. We can directly observe the universe at each point in time from 300,000 years after the Big Band (when the background radiation formed) through 13 billion years up to the present. And at every point in the measurement process, observations confirm the big bang.

From the light an object gives off, you can tell a lot about that object. You can the speed at which it moving away from you. You can what it is made of from its emission spectra. You can tell what temperature it is by what light it emitted. You can tell the composition of any material that lies between you and the object that emitted the light. They have taken measurements of the temperature of the universe at various points in time (by going to the right distance from us). The temperature of the universe has been cooling down over time precisely as the big bang expects. It started out white hot, and has cooled down to the present 3 degree K.

They have observed the chemical make up of the earlier universe and stars, and found it was almost entirely hydrogen and helium, just as big bang predicts. The universe has been steadily increasing in heavy elements from supernovas and novas. They have observed the first galaxies forming. They are forming just like the big bang predicts. They have observed the galaxies evolve over time. They are evolving just like the big bang and background microwave radiation predicts.

We have used gravitational lenses to take parallax type measurements of the distance of away galaxies that are several billions of light years away. The measurements confirm the expected distance from the Hubble expansion of the universe.

Everything in the universe screams that the universe was created in a spectacular event over 13 billion years ago, and that the universe has been steadily expanding eversince. String theory is simply an attempt to explain the event.

Just because something is accepted doesn't make it right. The truth is we don't know for fact, and theory is just that, an unproven point of view.

It can't even be considered a postulate. +--+*-+

Is it sound? Yes, as sound as any other theory put out their. Is there proof? perhaps, but we haven't secured it yet. So we keep searching...

 

[emet]

islamis4u:

i'm curious. what does the koran say of membranes?

in case you are unfamiliar with this concept....

scientists are being to find indications that the big bang is limited in scope due to membranes.

imagine a loaf of bread cut into slices. each slice represents a membrane contained in what scientists whimsically refer to as "the bulk". our universe represents but one membrane. according to string theory there are many membranes. it explains why gravitational force is weaker than electromagnetism, strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force. because gravitions are indicated to be a certain type of string, they are able to escape from our membrane, meaning gravity is weaker because it is spread out across the entire "bulk"

this provides string theory the grounds to state that the big bang was actually a collision between two membranes, sparking the creation of another membrane and this happens all the time.

although experimental proof of string theory have not yet been provided, with the activation of CERN's Large Hadron Collider, that problem should be cleared up.


I don't personally support string theory as proofs haven't been provided, but what if it is proven?

what would that do to the interpretations of the koran stated above?

for further reading I suggest:

Hyperspace by Dr. Michio Kaku
the Elegant Universe by Dr. Brian Greene
Warped Passages by Dr. Lisa Randall

I'm not very familiar with the Koran or Arabic, so I can't speak for the impacts on the arguments of original post. But I do know Hebrew and Aramaic, and much the same argument has been made based on the Jewish old Testament. There are several places where the text describes God as stretching forth the heavens like one spreading out a tent or as stretching out the heavens like the unrolling of a scroll. A literal Hebrew reading is even more powerful in its description of the expansion than the King James version.

String theory doesn't undermine this argument. This is because the stretching forth of the heavens still accurately describes what has taken place in the universe whether or not string theory is responsible for it.

Actually, the Biblical based argument may even support string theory. I've heard someone note that the book of revelation describes the universe's end as it being burned up in a furnace of flames as God rolls up the heavens like a scroll. This is consistent with one string theory that states the universe will end when one end of the membrane curls over and touches the other edge. At that point the singularity which is the universe will become unstable and all of space will suddenly collapse in a massive heat death.

This is kind of a pointless prediction, because if true, nobody will be around to acknowledge it. But its kinda fun to think about.

 

[Vajradhara]

Namaste emet,

thank you for the post.

i think that you may have misunderstood my response, i was asking how it was that one theory amongst the various ones was determined to be correct amongst Muslim scientists.

my objection is an objection to their methodology not their acceptance of particular theories.

metta,

~v

 

[Tao_Equus]

I find it more than mere coincidence that the two religions that most like to claim some scientific insight are the two big fundamentalist groups of Islam and Evangelical Christianity. It is part of their sales pitch, their paradigm must be ineffable at any cost, except reason.

Listening to the Muslims and Creationists you see this glassy, impenetrable mind set that in its excitement at its own misplaced cleverness is incapable of reason. They are all really preaching to themselves. And I wonder why they struggle so hard to fool themselves.

I get tired of the "I cant see" or "I do not understand" of such minds. I understand, I believe, why people are religious. And all its causes are evolutionary and social.... and with no evidence to support any supernatural causation. So I say now to the next Muslim or Evangelical that I do know your religion. And I know it to be a product of people not Gods. Saying "god is great" or "praise the lord" is utterly meaningless gibberish. There is no God or Allah that has any meaning outside of peoples homage to such concepts. We have created Gods. And we have created them in our own image.


tao

 

[Quahom1]

I find it more than mere coincidence that the two religions that most like to claim some scientific insight are the two big fundamentalist groups of Islam and Evangelical Christianity. It is part of their sales pitch, their paradigm must be ineffable at any cost, except reason.

Listening to the Muslims and Creationists you see this glassy, impenetrable mind set that in its excitement at its own misplaced cleverness is incapable of reason. They are all really preaching to themselves. And I wonder why they struggle so hard to fool themselves.

I get tired of the "I cant see" or "I do not understand" of such minds. I understand, I believe, why people are religious. And all its causes are evolutionary and social.... and with no evidence to support any supernatural causation. So I say now to the next Muslim or Evangelical that I do know your religion. And I know it to be a product of people not Gods. Saying "god is great" or "praise the lord" is utterly meaningless gibberish. There is no God or Allah that has any meaning outside of peoples homage to such concepts. We have created Gods. And we have created them in our own image.


tao

Then there are the religiously rationalists, who sound exactly like the other two "extremists"...really.

I'm serious Tao. The above paragraph sounds like it came right out of one of their pamphlets, just insert different nouns...

You can't understand them, and they can't understand you.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Then there are the religiously rationalists, who sound exactly like the other two "extremists"...really.

I'm serious Tao. The above paragraph sounds like it came right out of one of their pamphlets, just insert different nouns...

You can't understand them, and they can't understand you.

But only I speak the truth!! (slaps down "origin of species" on the lectern").

 

[greymare]

between you and me, Tao, (and the garden post) sometimes, IT just sneaks up on you and slaps you real hard in the head. (happened to a friend of a friend of mine. LOL. )