The Trinity, from the JW view.

[BlaznFattyz]

if you read your bible it will be clear

I'm asking you.

 

[mee]

"The evidence to be collected from the Apostolic Fathers is meagre, and tantalizingly inconclusive. . . . Of a doctrine of the Trinity in the strict sense there is of course no sign."—Oxford Professor J. N. D. Kelly





"The Christian Bible, including the New Testament, has no trinitarian statements or speculations concerning a trinitary deity."—Encyclopædia Britannica




Perhaps recollection of the many triads of the surrounding polytheistic world contributed to the formation of these threefold formulae."—Theological Dictionary of the New Testament

 

[Quahom1]

Tell you what Mee. You can call me "Jacob". You questioned my faith that is the same as most every other "Christian" in the world, and I am not going to let go of you, until you prove the "falacy". So far, you haven't done a very good job of it. On the other hand, I'm going to show you every flaw and error in your philosophy.

I'm not a very good Christian my friend. But I am a damn good debunker and "ferret". And I hate when others are lead astray. This will be a good game, and it is a game. The stakes are extremely high. That is, the souls of 2.3 billion people who look to Jesus as the savior, redeemer and GOD.

Attempt to prove away the God head of Christ. I'm ready to prove otherwise.

v/r

Q

 

[mee]

The Father—Superior to the Son

Jesus taught his disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name." Our heavenly Father, whose name is Jehovah, is described in the Bible as being superior to his Son.

For example, Jehovah is "from everlasting to everlasting." But the Bible says that Jesus is "the firstborn of every creature." That Jehovah is greater than Jesus, Jesus himself taught when he said: "My Father is greater than I." (Matthew 6:9; Psalm 90:1, 2; Colossians 1:15; John 14:28, King James Version) Yet, the Trinity doctrine holds that the Father and the Son are "equally God."


The Father’s superiority over the Son, as well as the fact that the Father is a separate person, is highlighted also in the prayers of Jesus, such as the one before his execution: "Father, if you wish, remove this cup [that is, an ignominious death] from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place." (Luke 22:42) If God and Jesus are "one in essence," as the Trinity doctrine says, how could Jesus’ will, or wish, seem different from that of his Father?—Hebrews 5:7, 8; 9:24.


Furthermore, if Jehovah and Jesus were the same, how could one of them be aware of things of which the other was not? Jesus, for instance, said regarding the time of the world’s judgment: "Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father."—Mark 13:32.


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[mee]

And I hate when others are lead astray.

Q

mee too

 

[Quahom1]

The Father—Superior to the Son

Jesus taught his disciples to pray: "Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name." Our heavenly Father, whose name is Jehovah, is described in the Bible as being superior to his Son.

For example, Jehovah is "from everlasting to everlasting." But the Bible says that Jesus is "the firstborn of every creature." That Jehovah is greater than Jesus, Jesus himself taught when he said: "My Father is greater than I." (Matthew 6:9; Psalm 90:1, 2; Colossians 1:15; John 14:28, King James Version) Yet, the Trinity doctrine holds that the Father and the Son are "equally God."


The Father’s superiority over the Son, as well as the fact that the Father is a separate person, is highlighted also in the prayers of Jesus, such as the one before his execution: "Father, if you wish, remove this cup [that is, an ignominious death] from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place." (Luke 22:42) If God and Jesus are "one in essence," as the Trinity doctrine says, how could Jesus’ will, or wish, seem different from that of his Father?—Hebrews 5:7, 8; 9:24.


Furthermore, if Jehovah and Jesus were the same, how could one of them be aware of things of which the other was not? Jesus, for instance, said regarding the time of the world’s judgment: "Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father."—Mark 13:32.



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He did not. He never called the Father "Jehovah" He didn't even use the word "YHWH". So once again your information is in error.

Second of all Jesus put away His "God head" in order to experience first hand, what humans endure. That was the only we He could fathom us. He had to get personal, down and dirty. When He gave up His life for us, He did so knowing full well the human condition (from the inside).

Satan and his minoins may have taken human form for their own pleasure, but Jesus took on human weakness, in order to understand fully that which He created. He Loves us that much. Only God has that capacity to love mankind, enough to suffer and die on our behalf.

The Father is never superior to the Son. Indeed each father on earth prays that his son/daughter, supercede him. I do, and I love my sons beyond every other soul on earth. So your arguement is moot, since we learn how to live from our heavenly father, so we teach our children and hope they become better than us.

Third, the bible says Jesus is the word of God. Who the hell are we to argue that point? I am a "centurian". I say "do this" or "go here" and my word is carried out. My word, is me. Just as the Father's Word is Him. According to John 1 in the beginning was the "Word". The "Word" was God.

Not hard to extrapolate the fact that Jesus (the Word), is God.

I know you don't believe this, and frankly I do not care. I speak to all those reading this post. They do care.

Jesus is Lord and God of us all, and God help those who refuse to accept Him. He will have no choice but to refuse to accept you.

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

mee too

Really? Then stop doing it.

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Wil,

Whoa, don't tell anybody!!
Q says 97% of Christendom is trinitarian. I have no idea. What would your take be?
Which churches, denominations have you attended that are non trinitarian?

I don't have any idea on the percent of trinitarian to non trinitarian. Google I'm sure would provide some number, hopefully before the 100th page.
The only non trinitarian church I've been to is Messianic.
BTW in my travels up and down 95, when in S.C. you can pick up a great Baha'i radio station, I like their music.

Joe

 

[Ahanu]

when in S.C. you can pick up a great Baha'i radio station, I like their music.

Joe

I have never heard any mention of the Baha'i Faith on the radio. That is close to where I live. The South Carolina state line is only like an hour away.

 

[mee]

Only God has that capacity to love mankind, enough to suffer and die on our behalf.


v/r

Q

but what does the bible say , it says this .



For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. JOHN 3;16-17

 

[mee]

The Father is never superior to the Son.


v/r

Q

Would you say that Jesus always spoke the truth , ? because the following is what Jesus said in the bible .

Jesus Christ himself said, "The Father is greater than I am" and referred to the Father as his God, "the only true God." (Joh 14:28; 17:3; 20:17; Mr 15:34; Re 1:1; 3:12)


On numerous occasions Jesus expressed his inferiority and subordination to his Father. (Mt 4:9, 10; 20:23; Lu 22:41, 42; Joh 5:19; 8:42; 13:16) Even after Jesus’ ascension into heaven his apostles continued to present the same picture.—1Co 11:3; 15:20, 24-28; 1Pe 1:3; 1Jo 2:1; 4:9, 10.

 

[mee]

Third, the bible says Jesus is the word of God.
v/r

Q

Very true.


Why called "the Word." The name (or, perhaps, title) "the Word" (Joh 1:1) apparently identifies the function that God’s firstborn Son performed after other intelligent creatures were formed.

A similar expression is found at Exodus 4:16, where Jehovah says to Moses concerning his brother Aaron: "And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him." As spokesman for God’s chief representative on earth, Aaron served as "a mouth" for Moses.


Likewise with the Word, or Logos, who became Jesus Christ. Jehovah evidently used his Son to convey information and instructions to others of his family of spirit sons, even as he used that Son to deliver his message to humans on earth.

Showing that he was God’s Word, or Spokesman, Jesus said to his Jewish listeners: "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality."—Joh 7:16, 17; compare Joh 12:50; 18:37.

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Ahanu,

I have never heard any mention of the Baha'i Faith on the radio. That is close to where I live. The South Carolina state line is only like an hour away.

I think it's towards the middle of the state. I was trying to remember exactly where, but since I really don't know the state, couldn't tell you. Do you live on the NC side or GA side. I moved to NC a year and a half ago from FL.
When I drive, and the radio is on, my change the station finger is constantly
moving so I couldn't even tell you where it is on the dial.

Joe

 

[mee]

"This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ."—JOHN 17:3.

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Mee,
From your posting, You have good knowledge of the bible and post some relevant points. I'm a bit puzzled on something, as I pass the kingdom hall on sunday morning I see the parking lot is full. Since the JW seem to keep things biblical, why not the seventh day?

From the NASB: Leviticus 26:

1:'You shall not make for yourselves idols, nor shall you set up for yourselves an image or a sacred pillar, nor shall you place a figured stone in your land to bow down to it;for I am the Lord you G!d.
2:'You shall keep My sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary; I am the Lord.
3:'If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments so as to carry them out,
4:then I shall give you rains in their season, so that the land will yield its produce and the trees of the field will bear their fruit.
5:'Indeed, your threshing will last for you until grape gathering, and grape gathering will last until sowing time. You will thus eat your food to the full and live securely in your land.
6:'I shall also grant peace in the land, so that you may lie down with no one making you tremble. I shall also eliminate harmful beasts from the land, and no sword will pass through you land.
7:'But you will chase your enemies and they will fall before you by the sword;
8:five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall before you by the sword.
9:'So I will turn toward you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and I will confirm My covenant with you.
10:'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
11:'Moreover, I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.
12:'I will also walk among you and be your G!d, and you shall be My people.
13:'I am the Lord your G!d, who brought you out of the land of Egypt so that you would not be their slaves, and I broke the bars of your yoke and made you walk erect.
14:'But if you do not obey Me and do not carry out all these commandments, ....................

Joe

 

[mee]

Hi Mee,
From your posting, You have good knowledge of the bible and post some relevant points. I'm a bit puzzled on something, as I pass the kingdom hall on sunday morning I see the parking lot is full. Since the JW seem to keep things biblical, why not the seventh day?

....................

Joe

not sure what your point is are you saying we should not worship and learn about the bible on certain days ?

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Mee,

not sure what your point is are you saying we should not worship and learn about the bible on certain days ?

Do the JW keep the seventh or the first day as the sabbath?

Joe

 

[mee]

Hi Mee,



Do the JW keep the seventh or the first day as the sabbath?

Joe

Since there is no evidence in the Scriptures that Christians were commanded to observe a sabbath or that it was kept during the lifetime of the apostles after Pentecost, what position should a Christian take?

He can Scripturally take the position that sabbath observance is not a Christian requirement.

This is made evident by Paul’s statement at Colossians 2:16, 17: "Let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; for those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ."


The law covenant with its observance of new moons and sabbaths, including the seventh-day sabbath, was like a shadow that led to and ended with Christ.

As it did not reach into the Christian Era to obligate Christians to keep it, so sabbath observance did not carry over into the Christian Era.

That is why sabbath observance is not mentioned by the Christian governing body at Jerusalem as a requirement for non-Jewish Christians, although several other things were mentioned.
The record of this is at Acts 15:19, 20. Neither here nor in later instructions to them was any mention made of sabbath observance, which certainly would have been made if it were vital for God’s approval.
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[Joedjr]

Hi Mee,

Since there is no evidence in the Scriptures that Christians were commanded to observe a sabbath or that it was kept during the lifetime of the apostles after Pentecost, what position should a Christian take?

In acts, Paul meets on the sabbath. from the NASB Acts:13:14
But going from Perga, they arrived at Pisidian Antioch, and on the Sabbath day they went into the synagogue and set down.

Acts:17:2
And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

This is made evident by Paul’s statement at Colossians 2:16, 17: "Let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath; for those things are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ."

The law covenant with its observance of new moons and sabbaths, including the seventh-day sabbath, was like a shadow that led to and ended with Christ.

I see you like to post quotes from the old testament, is there a list somewhere which tells which part of the law and prophets is or is not ended with Christ?

That is why sabbath observance is not mentioned by the Christian governing body a Jerusalem as a requirement for non-Jewish Christians, although several other things were mentioned.

The record of this is at Acts 15:19, 20. Neither here nor in later instructions to them was any mention made of sabbath observance, which certainly would have been made if it were vital for God’s approval.

Acts 15:
28:"For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29:that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."

I agree there is no Sabbath requirement for Gentiles.

Joe

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Ahanu,

Hi Ahanu,
I think it's towards the middle of the state. I was trying to remember exactly where, but since I really don't know the state, couldn't tell you. Do you live on the NC side or GA side. I moved to NC a year and a half ago from FL.
When I drive, and the radio is on, my change the station finger is constantly
moving so I couldn't even tell you where it is on the dial.
Joe

Perhaps this was the radio station: WLGI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Joe