The Evolution Conflict

powessy said:
The way I have been explained this is you can only become something you can become and only if it is very similar in shape and size and has the same control points.
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That was natural selection....with GMO/unnatural selection...we'll be building via gene splicing new crossbreeds that could never have existed... adding gills back in, mixing flounders with tomatoes so they can freeze and still live....etc.
 
powessy said:
The way I have been explained this is you can only become something you can become and only if it is very similar in shape and size and has the same control points.
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This concept is very similar to the one at the core of the Intelligent Design curriculum. They accept that microevolution is possible. I.E. that a dog can have mutations to become a different breed of dog. What ID negates is the possibility of macroevolution. That a fish could have evolved into an amphibian, which evolved into a reptile, which evolved into a bird and so forth. This is essentially what you are saying yes?
 
Devils' Advocate said:
This concept is very similar to the one at the core of the Intelligent Design curriculum. They accept that microevolution is possible. I.E. that a dog can have mutations to become a different breed of dog. What ID negates is the possibility of macroevolution. That a fish could have evolved into an amphibian, which evolved into a reptile, which evolved into a bird and so forth. This is essentially what you are saying yes?
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Hello devil

I am still trying to understand this myself but yes this seems to be what they are saying. The voices that I hear say that they can only become what they can become that man is always man and dogs will always be dogs their soul nor yours is able to become something in a fish or any other life form other then the one you are. Angels can create things down to the atomic level they can become anything. The angels direct life they are the engineers of worlds. The in between species do not make it, they are not allowed to become something again and again, the changes take place on the soul level till a new form is reached that form is held there till a new change is ready to happen.

Powessy
 
powessy said:
The in between species do not make it, they are not allowed to become something again and again, the changes take place on the soul level till a new form is reached that form is held there till a new change is ready to happen.
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This does sound quite a bit like Gould's "Punctuated Equilibrium." Not totally, but about half.
 
wil said:
That was natural selection....with GMO/unnatural selection...we'll be building via gene splicing new crossbreeds that could never have existed... adding gills back in, mixing flounders with tomatoes so they can freeze and still live....etc.
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Hello Wil

To cross a dog with a another similar animal like a fox is possible but the offspring are infertile they can not become something again and again. To evolve changes must be able to hold on their own without modification or sustained manipulation.

Powessy
 
powessy said:
To cross a dog with a another similar animal like a fox is possible but the offspring are infertile they can not become something again and again. To evolve changes must be able to hold on their own without modification or sustained manipulation.
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Sorry, Powessy...you lost me here. This simply is not true borne out by repeated examples.

Sometimes crosses are infertile...mules, nectarines...for example.

Other times this is patently untrue. All breeds of dog come from 4 distinct injections of wolf, and can still interbreed with the parent stock. I've seen many wolf hybrid dogs, chiefly with German Shepherd or Husky...and they are quite able to continue breeding.

It is well known in ranching that Angus cattle can be bred with Brahman cattle...so called "Brangus" cattle. Brahman cattle are from India, Angus from Scotland....evolving half a world apart from each other, no doubt separated before the most recent Ice Age tens of thousands of years ago...and yet still can interbreed, with fertile offspring.

There are so many variations of food crops that show this untrue...Rosacea family, Brassica family, Umbellifer family and on and on and on.

This is just a small handful of probably 50 examples I've found personally. I have every reason to expect there are many, many more examples I'm not even aware of.
 
juantoo3 said:
Sorry, Powessy...you lost me here. This simply is not true borne out by repeated examples.

Sometimes crosses are infertile...mules, nectarines...for example.

Other times this is patently untrue. All breeds of dog come from 4 distinct injections of wolf, and can still interbreed with the parent stock. I've seen many wolf hybrid dogs, chiefly with German Shepherd or Husky...and they are quite able to continue breeding.

It is well known in ranching that Angus cattle can be bred with Brahman cattle...so called "Brangus" cattle. Brahman cattle are from India, Angus from Scotland....evolving half a world apart from each other, no doubt separated before the most recent Ice Age tens of thousands of years ago...and yet still can interbreed, with fertile offspring.

There are so many variations of food crops that show this untrue...Rosacea family, Brassica family, Umbellifer family and on and on and on.

This is just a small handful of probably 50 examples I've found personally. I have every reason to expect there are many, many more examples I'm not even aware of.
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Hello jauntoo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canid_hybrid this is the source I had looked up about crossing a fox with a dog. I don't think what I am saying is being said correctly.

A dog has four legs a tail and hair or fur. A dog is a dog and there are 340 breeds of dog today according to wikipedia. What I am trying to say is you can not mix a dog with a rabbit and have a new species of dograbbit. When something is outside the ability of it to become that new thing then it will be infertile but if something is able to become that change then life will allow it to happen. If the original function of the animal is more then it is able to become then that species will not become something or they will be infertile.

Sometimes crosses are infertile...mules, nectarines These crosses are good strong crosses why is it they are infertile they are in a constant state of manipulation but one that will not stick like viruses. you can stretch a balloon but it is elastic, the soul and evolution is also elastic it will always try to maintain its shape until it is changed by the engineers or angels. It is not a question of intelligent design it is a question of how much you can stretch something away from its original design and maintain that change. How many people will die swimming in a pool before they grow fins and gills or will this change ever happen like in water world.

Powessy
 
juantoo3 said:
That's good to hear, because neither was I saying anything even close to that. ;)
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Hello juantoo

I was not insinuating that you believed this I was just trying to establish a far outside boundary. Lets say that every life form on this planet without manipulation is and will always be here and that all these life forms have been allowed to become something again and again by the angels/engineers. Lets then say that the human brain has 10000 connection points that your soul must connect to in order to be born again. A dog has 5000 connection points, a rabbit 3000 connection points and a spider only 1000. This may seem a little like dna but it is not it all has to do with connection points within each living creature. lets say that you are human as long as you fall between the ranges of 10010 and 9990, if you fall outside this number of connection points you will not become something again and again this life form will not live. Now the mule is still within the +- 10 connection points but on the very edge the same goes for nectarines .

Powessy
 
Juan, I've been trying to get through this thread you linked to me but I'm so far only on page five. I think 'gluadys' is being very knowledgeable and clear and if he can't convince you about speciation I don't stand a chance. If you have made your case, as you see it today, in this thread I haven't gotten to it yet and I'm not sure I will, there is a lot of 'stuff' here...
 
powessy said:
I am still trying to understand this myself but yes this seems to be what they are saying. The voices that I hear say that they can only become what they can become that man is always man and dogs will always be dogs their soul nor yours is able to become something in a fish or any other life form other then the one you are.
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So your 'other' is essentially stating that evolution is impossible. Is that correct?
 
Devils' Advocate said:
So your 'other' is essentially stating that evolution is impossible. Is that correct?
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Hello Devil

Here is how it was told to me and you can decide. I was told the son of god came here in the beginning of this world with his father.the father wanted this world to belong to a race of angels called the deltafet for their long service to the slittunes one of the first races of this universe. The father gave life to gaia and to the angels of this world and left. The son remained he wanted to show his father he could build a world and show him his love. The son spent many years here at a time working with the angels to build this world. I was told that man had been here many times over the life of this planet but it was never right. The son went out into the universe and brought back all kinds of life forms from many worlds and found all the species you see today.

When a species is complete it is not allowed to become something again its soul will die but it will not change its shape in life here on earth, a record of yourself or the animal is stored within your treemend. If you are one of the allowed then your soul can become something again after life to reincarnate, because you become yourself inside your treemend, so you always become yourself.

As for evolution. If the angels were not to interfere with creation then evolution would run a muck. Evolution is pulling at every fiber of your body and every living creature on this planet. I think of the movie Prometheus when thinking of this where life just creates and creates and nothing stays the same. The angels cause life to hold and become something again and again.

pic1treemend.jpg


Powessy
 
Vindication for me:

Around 200,000 years ago, a new species, Homo sapiens, appeared on the African landscape. While scientists have imagined eastern Africa as a real-life Garden of Eden, the latest research suggests humans evolved in many places across the continent at the same time. DNA from a 19th-century African-American slave is forcing geneticists to re-think the origins of our species. The theory is that our ancestors met, mated and hybridized with other human types in Africa — creating ever greater diversity within our species.
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ref: http://www.pbs.org/first-peoples/episodes/africa/

This is still unfolding for me...but considering how long I've argued with how many others here about speciation...ultimately how it applied to us through our human ancestors...along with cross-species hybridization beginning with the child of Lapedo...it seems the scientific community is finally coming around to what I've been saying here for over ten years.
 
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Phi said:
In the beginning....

Since this topic is all about beginnings, perhps it would be a good idea to research the beginnings of Darwin's theory, "The Voyage of the Beagle."
This treatise contains a concise and accurate description of the credentials of Darwin and his "colleagues", most of whom were not scientists at all!

Which just goes to show that many good and valid scientific boons can come from very bad beginnings. How many better and more valid scientific boons might, then, come from good beginnings?

It further illustrates my point that when theories become dogma, science suffers.

This treatise is by a Christian writer, who gives some Christian opinions, but the facts of the history are concise and correct.
http://www.online-literature.com/darwin/voyage_beagle/
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Mohsin said:
Now, my question is that since the theory of evolution is incorrect and have contradictions with both Quran and the Bible, thus conflicting religion, why do so many people believe in it? Why is it tought in schools and colleges? Why do many magazines and people of the scientific community defend this theory, and do you, being a religious person, believe in this thoery?
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I am very much religious but I am an atheist Hindu. Why so many people believe in it is because they have discriminating minds. They can see the difference between fiction and facts.
 
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