Moses was high on drugs: Israeli researcher

[Islamfac]

lol.. they didn't get manna while they were at the mountain, did they?

Thomas, today, all of the Prophets who saw spirits or God would be put in a loony bin and fed prozack.

if your not on drugs they will put you on drugs.. lol

isnt this the thinking of the middle ages about the people who invented ideas like the earth was round?

if it defied logic in their minds you are drunk, on drugs or just plan crazy.

 

[Dream]

Eating foods that are extremely spicy can give you a high -- a combination of very hot & very bitter will do it. It hurts, but once your mouth gets used to it you can experience new vistas of taste. (Kids, don't try this at home.)

 

[Pathless]

Looked it up on the ol' wiki...

Wow... *cringes* I just noticed Wiki made a spelling error, I'll have to uhm, inform them.

Yeah. Wiki sux.

 

[Thomas]

isnt this the thinking of the middle ages about the people who invented ideas like the earth was round?

That the people in the Middle Ages thought the earth was flat was a myth ... everyone knew the earth was round, and had done since the Greeks, if not before.

I'm not against anyone assuming that someone was off their head on drugs, what really cracks me up is the assumption that anyone off their head on drugs is likely to have an authentic spiritual experience ... that's about as true as Columbus worried about sailing off the edge of the world ...

Thomas

 

[seattlegal]

Eating foods that are extremely spicy can give you a high -- a combination of very hot & very bitter will do it. It hurts, but once your mouth gets used to it you can experience new vistas of taste. (Kids, don't try this at home.)

Oh, so that explains why I like hot peppers stuffed with almonds, dipped in melted bittersweet chocolate and sprinkled with cinnamon?

 

[wil]

That the people in the Middle Ages thought the earth was flat was a myth ... everyone knew the earth was round, and had done since the Greeks, if not before.

I'm not against anyone assuming that someone was off their head on drugs, what really cracks me up is the assumption that anyone off their head on drugs is likely to have an authentic spiritual experience ... that's about as true as Columbus worried about sailing off the edge of the world ...

Thomas

Namaste Thomas,

There are plenty of folks that have had spiritual experiences while high. I'd say proportionately folks that go in with a group or controlled situation with the intention of a spiritual experience utlizing entheogens are more likely to have an experience that changes their life than those who do so simply by prayer, meditation, scripture, reading and classes.

One of the studies here in the states finds that one trip is all it takes, they don't wish to take another trip and they have insights that change their perspective from that time onward.

One can go the monastary route to separate oneself for the ego driven material life, it doesn't always work, plenty of egos in the monastary. But if one is simply going to classes, attending services, and expects some ground breaking eureka without devoting extensive time to devotions, meditations, contemplations in order to break down the crap that enfuses our dailiy life, play the lottery.

Now I'm not saying all drug use is a religious experience. I'm not recomending the use of any substance. Most folks I'd say are out for the party and out to discount reality for any of a number of reasons, most of them not spiritual, and highly ego related.

However in a few hours, in a day, there are ways to leave this reality and experience another, call it what you will, but don't discount it as nothing, not unless you wish others to discount your beliefs as nothing.

Judge not, less ye be judged by the same measure.

peace brother,

wil

 

[Pathless]

Oh, so that explains why I like hot peppers stuffed with almonds, dipped in melted bittersweet chocolate and sprinkled with cinnamon?

I like mine with a dash of lysergic acid diethylamide.

 

[Opal]

Namaste all,

Anyone heard of this guy?

Moses was high on drugs: Israeli researcher


High on Mount Sinai, Moses was on psychedelic drugs when he heard God deliver the Ten Commandments, an Israeli researcher claimed in a study published this week.

Such mind-altering substances formed an integral part of the religious rites of Israelites in biblical times, Benny Shanon, a professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem wrote in the Time and Mind journal of philosophy.
"As far Moses on Mount Sinai is concerned, it was either a supernatural cosmic event, which I don't believe, or a legend, which I don't believe either, or finally, and this is very probable, an event that joined Moses and the people of Israel under the effect of narcotics," Shanon told Israeli public radio on Tuesday.
Moses was probably also on drugs when he saw the "burning bush," suggested Shanon, who said he himself has dabbled with such substances.
"The Bible says people see sounds, and that is a clasic phenomenon," he said citing the example of religious ceremonies in the Amazon in which drugs are used that induce people to "see music."
He mentioned his own experience when he used ayahuasca, a powerful psychotropic plant, during a religious ceremony in Brazil's Amazon forest in 1991. "I experienced visions that had spiritual-religious connotations," Shanon said. He said the psychedelic effects of ayahuasca were comparable to those produced by concoctions based on bark of the acacia tree, that is frequently mentioned in the Bible.

I came across that a while ago. Frankly, I find that rather offensive even though it doesnt 'affect' my personal beliefs.

Honestly: how rude.

If only all drugs would inspire people to reveal such wonderful scriptures that inspire the lives of millions of people.

 

[Dream]

Oh, so that explains why I like hot peppers stuffed with almonds, dipped in melted bittersweet chocolate and sprinkled with cinnamon?

That's probably why. How do they get the almonds in there?

 

[seattlegal]

That's probably why. How do they get the almonds in there?

Via the same route you remove the seeds from the chilies. (Be sure to wear your rubber gloves.)

 

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

There are plenty of folks that have had spiritual experiences while high. I'd say proportionately folks that go in with a group or controlled situation with the intention of a spiritual experience utlizing entheogens are more likely to have an experience that changes their life than those who do so simply by prayer, meditation, scripture, reading and classes.

So God responds better to ethogens than to endeavour? Sorry Wil, but I think such comments show how prayer, meditation, scripture, reading and classes (which are not equivalent practices) are completely misunderstood ...

+++

Life changing does not necessarily equate 'spiritual' and therein lies the problem people use the term with no real idea of what they're talking about ... or rather 'spiritual' has become so meaningless it covers anything that you can't spread on bread.

An altered psychological state is not a spiritual state, it's just an altered psychological state ... again what's the difference between psychological, psychic and spiritual?

I see it all as psychological.

I am also aware of those I know of, and have known personally, who have been totally destroyed by the same order of experience ... Sid Barrett (Pink Floyd) Peter Green (Fleetwood Mac) ...

Again, I know people who have had similar life-altering experiences in near-fatal excursions into drugs, alcohol and in one instance the motor car ... but they would not claim it spiritual, simply an altered viewpoint ... and I have had one memorable OOB experience on my motorbike that changed my whole approach to riding ...

In the West it seems anything that makes one feel good is immediately qualified as 'spiritual' — it just ain't the case.

One can go the monastary route to separate oneself for the ego driven material life, it doesn't always work, plenty of egos in the monastary.

Sure are, that's why I am full of admiration for the monastic. I couldn't do it. I am also aware of the immeasurable benefits accorded to humanity of those who make the endeavour.

But if one is simply going to classes, attending services, and expects some ground breaking eureka without devoting extensive time to devotions, meditations, contemplations in order to break down the crap

Indeed ... and if you really think that dropping a tab is all it takes, to work any meaningful change ... then it doesn't say much for the quality of human life, does it ... ?

Now I'm not saying all drug use is a religious experience.

Good.

However in a few hours, in a day, there are ways to leave this reality and experience another, call it what you will, but don't discount it as nothing, not unless you wish others to discount your beliefs as nothing.

Nonsense. The product of such a process is a fantasy, not a reality.

Any value is subsequent, in how the fantasist interprets the experience ... and the more 'meaningful', the more the fantasy becomes one's personal reality ... but this is psychological and indeed, for some, psychic ... but it's all founded on a fantasy.

Thomas

 

[wil]

Nonsense. The product of such a process is a fantasy, not a reality.

Any value is subsequent, in how the fantasist interprets the experience ... and the more 'meaningful', the more the fantasy becomes one's personal reality ... but this is psychological and indeed, for some, psychic ... but it's all founded on a fantasy.

Thomas

But Ezekial and Revelation and Jacob wrestling with an angel, none of those fantasy?

I've run into plenty of folks who claim spiritual experiences who I'd like to believe but my cynic holds their words with a grain of salt.

I just don't discount those who use a substance to lessen the impact of the material world to access spiritual understanding. I don't take all their experiences at face value either. But I do listen, to both.

 

[Thomas]

But Ezekial and Revelation and Jacob wrestling with an angel, none of those fantasy?

Well that depends on what you choose to believe, doesn't it?

If you're not 'of the Book' then you can assume them to be anything you like — a trip, a delusion, a mania ... But a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim would hold they are not fantasies, but the narrative of a mystical vision.

Even for those not of the book, the spiritual insight is luminous.

As a rule of thumb, person fantasy rarely provides a sustainable vision that transcends the wisdom of the world, it's romance, rather than reason ...

I've run into plenty of folks who claim spiritual experiences who I'd like to believe but my cynic holds their words with a grain of salt.

Based on your own parameters, that's probably a wise move.

I just don't discount those who use a substance to lessen the impact of the material world to access spiritual understanding. I don't take all their experiences at face value either. But I do listen, to both.

But do you discriminate? It seems not.

The substance lessens the contact with every world, Wil, that's the point, the illusionary self drifts into even deeper illusion ... whereas the 'spiritual disciplines' — or asceticism generally — actually challenges the illusions and fantasies of the self and by so doing offers the possibility of an insight or even an experience of the real.

The fallacy is assuming the induced vision is an alternative reality, it's not, it's a very strong fantasy.

That it may change someone's life is not disputed, but it's that person's response to the fantasy, not the fantasy ... and God does not communicate in fantasy — I can direct you to Orthodox sites that draw the distinction between fantasy and reality, if you like.

Thomas

 

[bananabrain]

The substance lessens the contact with every world, Wil, that's the point, the illusionary self drifts into even deeper illusion ... whereas the 'spiritual disciplines' — or asceticism generally — actually challenges the illusions and fantasies of the self and by so doing offers the possibility of an insight or even an experience of the real.

however, it is undeniable that mystical and ascetic routes can offer equally chimeric detours and increase the possibility for heretical error or at any rate controversy - that is why the kabbalists stress the importance of a spiritual guide. history is full of examples from those who engaged in these disciplines without the appropriate safeguards, with tragic results; everything from the fate of three of the four who ascended to PaRDe"S, the child who was consumed by fire when studying the ma'aseh merqabah, the trials of abulafia, to say nothing of shabbetai tzvi. and it's not just us - what about that unfortunate sufi (ibn hallaj?) who was executed for yelling "i am the Truth!"?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[seattlegal]

however, it is undeniable that mystical and ascetic routes can offer equally chimeric detours and increase the possibility for heretical error or at any rate controversy - that is why the kabbalists stress the importance of a spiritual guide. history is full of examples from those who engaged in these disciplines without the appropriate safeguards, with tragic results; everything from the fate of three of the four who ascended to PaRDe"S, the child who was consumed by fire when studying the ma'aseh merqabah, the trials of abulafia, to say nothing of shabbetai tzvi. and it's not just us - what about that unfortunate sufi (ibn hallaj?) who was executed for yelling "i am the Truth!"?

b'shalom

bananabrain

It makes sense that a mystic would have to be firmly grounded in order to keep from doing insane things. What's the best grounding agent? I would say materialism is not the best grounding agent.

I like this Bertrand Russel quote, but would substitute 'compassion' for 'pity.'

Three passions have governed my life:
The longings for love, the search for knowledge,
And unbearable pity for the suffering of [humankind].
Love brings ecstasy and relieves loneliness.
In the union of love I have seen
In a mystic miniature the prefiguring vision
Of the heavens that saints and poets have imagined.
With equal passion I have sought knowledge.
I have wished to understand the hearts of [people].
I have wished to know why the stars shine.
Love and knowledge led upwards to the heavens,
But always pity brought me back to earth;
Cries of pain reverberated in my heart
Of children in famine, of victims tortured
And of old people left helpless.
I long to alleviate the evil, but I cannot,
And I too suffer.

This has been my life; I found it worth living.


~Bertrand Russel​

 

[17th Angel]

Three passions have governed my life:​

The longings for love, the search for knowledge,​

And unbearable pity for the suffering of [humankind].​

Love brings ecstasy and relieves loneliness.​

In the union of love I have seen​

In a mystic miniature the prefiguring vision​

Of the heavens that saints and poets have imagined.​

With equal passion I have sought knowledge.​

I have wished to understand the hearts of [people].​

I have wished to know why the stars shine.​

Love and knowledge led upwards to the heavens,​

But always pity brought me back to earth;​

Cries of pain reverberated in my heart​

Of children in famine, of victims tortured​

And of old people left helpless.​

I long to alleviate the evil, but I cannot,​

And I too suffer.​

This has been my life; I found it worth living.​

~Bertrand Russel​

Words of a stoner... lol... And he's right

 

[pohaikawahine]

actually in my view the whole thread was answered in the first post Moses was "high on Mount Sinai" .... when one moves the spiralling energy in the body to the top of the head (or the top of the mountain) through meditative prayer, meditation, chanting, and a myriad of others ways (none requiring drugs of any sort except those that naturally occur within the brain itself), it is possible to have revelations and this is the ultimate merging of heaven and earth .... so to move to the top of the mountain would be equavalent to being "high on Mount Sinai" ....

some plants known to the shaman can go directly to the brain and cause the release of certain chemicals (such as ayahuasca which is also called the spirit vine or ladder to the Milky Way, vine of the soul - it spirals and twists like a rope, as do many vines) but these are not needed and the same experience can be achieved without them just through meditation or chanting or even spinning) ....

The Song of Songs (also known as the Song of Solomon) tells you how to get the same place - how to find your way to the garden, how to remove the veils of meaning and look within .... how to become "high on Mount Sinai" ....

just a quick thought to share as I pass through .... he hawai'i au, poh