Rome in transition

Even regarding Peter...who has an entire Basilica named after him...it is curiously silent in the historical record as to how he died. The unofficial official Church stance as I am given to understand is that Peter was also crucified, just after Paul, and for some reason insisted on being crucified upside down. I'd be happy to see something to back that up.
There's a fair bit of research around, but nothing conclusive.

Tradition has it that Peter was hung head-down, and in 1940s bones were discovered in a necropolis under the Basilica, purportedly belonging to Peter, which were dated to the 1st century and which had the feet hacked off which suggested death by crucifixion.

A lot of circumstantial evidence, sufficient for a believer to accept. Pope Francis has gifted some of the bones to the Orthodox Church.

I have argued before that if it had not been for the effort of Paul, Christianity would be a footnote. Further, it would be required to first be Jewish before one could become Christian.
Probably ... if not that then gentile Christians would be 2nd class citizens, but yes, Paul was instrumental, and Christianity would have been lost, perhaps, in the emergence of rabbinical Judaism?
 
I still haven't pinpointed the hard separation, but in previous discussion with Thomas I seem to recall there was already friction between Judaism and Christianity prior to Bar Kochba, possibly even closer to the time of the Temple razing.
As you say, I don't think we can put a hard date on it – James and the deacon Stephen were killed, but this does not signify a concerted effort to stamp out Christianity.

More likely there were tensions between the two depending on how vocal one or both sides were?

As the Jews pushed the Christians away (and vice-versa), there was nowhere else to go but into the arms of the pagans that surrounded them.
We-e-e-ll ...

One could argue that the early Christians would retreat into themselves rather than decide to paganise Christianity – I think that's a bit of a stretch although there was obvious influences.

Looking at a list of early Church fathers it appears that even among the first three (Clement, Ignatius and Polycarp), one has scholarly debate surrounding him...
Quite. And by majority the early Church fathers were platonists – that is they used Platonic principles to reason their belief, not that they soulf to Platonise Christianity, although that certainly went on. Origen, for example, was a declared Christian, rather than a declared Platonist, but even he fell into a degree of error with regard to his speculations – although not as much as later 'Origenist monks' who were the cause of his condemnation – scholars regard the errors as theirs, rather than his/

Irenaeus was notably a profoundly influential father who was not schooled in Greek philosophy.

Antioch "was also the main center of Hellenistic Judaism at the end of the Second Temple period" (i.e., Bar Kochba and the Diaspora) per Wiki
Alexandria and Antioch were the two principle centres of Christian theological speculation, and the principle Patriarchies. Jerusalem was a patriarchy our of respect, and Constantinople was the newcomer who saw itself as the 'new Rome' and therefore set up a long-running tension between itself and the others with regard to priority.
 
While Paul's detractors want to blame Paul for the paganization of the Church ...
LOL, a big assumption ... and one even Jewish scholars would treat with caution.

The amalgamation that took place ...
I don't think there was an 'amalgamation' as such. Philosophy was a way of explaining the world, and philosophy was used to explain the Christian Mysteries – to argue that the belief was reasonable ... so we have the tension between 'Platonic Christianity' and 'Christian Platonism'.

St Maximus (6th century) 'corrected' Plato entirely, with regard to the origin and cause of creation. That certainly wasn't an amalgamation.

And when we see such an early Church Father as Clement sympathetic to Greek (read that as "pagan") philosophy it really isn't any wonder the two merged.
Again, I think that's rather over-stating the case.

Philosophy is the product of human reason and reflection. Christianity is Revelation. So the fathers saw Christ illumination the truths that underpin philosophy, and as such Plato was close, and simply needed a gentle correcting – Christianity to fill in the blanks, as it were.

After all, the pagans were trying to get to the truth, and any genuine seeker will not be ignored by the Divine.
 
Scholasticism basically led right into the current "science is the ONLY way to look at the world" attitude that prevails, at least in the West.
It's worth remembering that St Thomas Aquinas was, one could argue, a Platonist who used Aristotle's method of argument ... Thomas's primary references were Augustine (Platonist) and Dionysius the pseudoAreopagite (Platonist).

Scholasticism is a methodology, but the 'big hitters' in theology are Platonist to some degree ... it's never gone away. The Dominican line through to Eckhart and on.

Thomas's contemporary in Paris was St Bonaventure, a more notably mystical speculative.
 
One could argue that the early Christians would retreat into themselves rather than decide to paganise Christianity – I think that's a bit of a stretch although there was obvious influences.
I suppose a good bit is perspective...such can also be interpreted as Christianizing Paganism. Baptizing it, in a manner of speaking as I've read before. ;)
 
It's worth remembering that St Thomas Aquinas was, one could argue, a Platonist who used Aristotle's method of argument ... Thomas's primary references were Augustine (Platonist) and Dionysius the pseudoAreopagite (Platonist).

Scholasticism is a methodology, but the 'big hitters' in theology are Platonist to some degree ... it's never gone away. The Dominican line through to Eckhart and on.

Thomas's contemporary in Paris was St Bonaventure, a more notably mystical speculative.
True, but these guys were well after the formative years.

I found it surprising that a significant portion of Judaism was willing to blend with the Greek...and the Septuagint is evidence of that, but I wasn't expecting to find a school promoting this amalgam. This before Paul was even born.

I'm prepared to accept these were not the majority, the thought crossed my mind (unsubstantiated) that perhaps these were the Sadducees - wealthy and a lesser political player aside the Pharisees. Clearly there was collusion, status quo hold to power under the Romans.

To see a later school merging Judaic and Islamic scholarship beginning not long after the rise of Islam, and the inclusion of Christian scholars into that school a few hundred years later, part of all of the back and forth across N. Africa and into the Iberian peninsula. That was how the Catholic world "rediscovered" Aristotle and other Greek thinkers, leading into humanism.

Quite fascinating bit of history, I need to delve deeper.
 
More likely there were tensions between the two depending on how vocal one or both sides were?
Apparently the Jews were a lot more militant and willing to take up arms than I was previously inclined to think.

I recall reading long ago of another uprising between the razing of the Temple and Bar Kochba, I found some info yesterday. Circa 115-117+/- Jews went on a rampage pretty much all around the Empire, and the Emperor went here and there with his armies snuffing out hot spots for a couple of years before it was all put down. I've been so accustomed to understand the Jews to have been picked on for so long, I didn't see this one coming. Bar Kochba then was a final straw that broke the camel's back, and that brought on the Diaspora.

The Jews had political power, Christians would not gain significant political power until the Edict of Toleration in 314. What better way to hide in plain sight than to blend with the surrounding community and adopt their ways to a significant degree?
 
The Jews were always problematic for their Roman 'conquerors'.

I've posted before about the arrest of Paul when he relied on his Roman citizenship to get him out of a sticky situation when he caused a riot in Jerusalem, and it took a sizeable escort to see him safely out of harm's way!

Bearing in mind the early Christians were mostly Jews, then it's not too much to suppose this belligerent tendency carried across?

Of course there were gentiles as well, and soon the majority, but again I see no reason to suppose they sold out on their received faith to be accepted by the culture at large?
 
I've posted before about the arrest of Paul when he relied on his Roman citizenship to get him out of a sticky situation when he caused a riot in Jerusalem, and it took a sizeable escort to see him safely out of harm's way!
Indeed, so have I.

...I see no reason to suppose they sold out on their received faith to be accepted by the culture at large?
I don't think they "sold out," it was a much more subtle shift than that, it was a matter of life or death. It was a matter of not rocking the boat. It was a matter of trying to survive with little or no political sway.

History is written from the vantage of the victor...we are discussing a period when Christianity was the vanquished. That in itself may explain the paucity of corroborating evidences.
 
Judaizers and those who divorced Judaism

I said, "What better way to hide in plain sight than to blend with the surrounding community and adopt their ways to a significant degree?"

We know there were two distinct factions, at minimum: Arius and Athanasius. Could it be, possibly, that Arius believed himself a little more Jewish? Possibly leaning to the Jewish way of understanding the world?

How long did the Ebionites last? How about the Nazareans?

It was a nasty divorce.

We have documented Constantine's antisemitism.

We have documented Constantine and the Council changing the Sabbath Day to Sunday, and rejection of the Jewish Holy Days in favor of more generic and cross cultural pagan holidays...best shown is Santa Claus. We've discussed the Green Knight and Wild Man traditions in the past, you and I. It wouldn't take but a moment to show both in different contexts hidden in the architecture of any major European Cathedral.

The days the G!d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob commanded to observe were never rescinded or changed by the G!d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus did not command a change to the dates or purposes of any of the Jewish Holy Days. Either way, it was men who changed all that, and the change conforms nicely with already long established traditions. (*baptising them)
 
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If I may ask, @Thomas , this is more up your alley anyway. You mention Platonists when I stumbled on Aristotle. Greek philosophy is outside my ken. Clue me in, Cliff's notes for dummies. What is the back and forth between Plato and Ari?

I hope that doesn't come across too brusque, I am sincerely asking, because I don't know. Greek philosophy has never been an interest high on my list, only in passing.
 
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I don't think they "sold out," it was a much more subtle shift than that, it was a matter of life or death. It was a matter of not rocking the boat. It was a matter of trying to survive with little or no political sway.
I don't entirely disagree, but I would counsel caution with regard to pressing the point too far – we we face-to-face no doubt we'd be bettwre able to express the nuance.

I'm not sure at what level you see these accommodations taking place?

At the grass-roots level, Christians went about their business quietly and discreetly. Persecutions against them were largely sporadic and local, so not all Christians suffered (Tertullian says there were none in N Africa prior to 180AD) ... even so, Christians were executed for not recanting their faith when given the opportunity to do so, as Pliny states.

Doctrine is formed at a much higher level. Again I will say that 'educated' Christians would have had some grounding in philosophy and would use the lexicon of the day to explain and reason their beliefs. Plato was far more accommodating in that regard than Aristotle, Platonism being more mystical and speculative, Aristotelianism being rational and empirical. Aristotle's God, the Motionless Mover, is far removed from the world ...

But then, exclusion from the synagogue must have been pretty major for a Jewish-Christian, and even a gentile Christian might be given to pause, because they saw the roots of Christianity in Judaism? So in that sense it was a 'big deal'.

+++

Can one say the lifespan of the Ebionite/Nazarene was always going to be limited, not Jewish enough to be accepted by the emerging Judaism, too Jewish to be accepted by mainstream Christians. I've always assumed these and other groups were founded in and around the teaching of Jesus, but lacked the Apostolic commentary – men like Apollo in Luke 18:24-28
"Now a certain Jew, named Apollo, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus, one mighty in the scriptures. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, spoke, and taught diligently the things that are of Jesus, knowing only the baptism of John. This man therefore began to speak boldly in the synagogue. Whom when Priscilla and Aquila had heard, they took him to them, and expounded to him the way of the Lord more diligently. And whereas he was desirous to go to Achaia, the brethren exhorting, wrote to the disciples to receive him. Who, when he was come, helped them much who had believed. For with much vigour he convinced the Jews openly, shewing by the scriptures, that Jesus is the Christ."
Apollo knew 'only the baptism of John' suggests an early Christian teaching via disciples who were probably at some remove from Christ in his final journeys – so we might suppose there was a 'primitive' Christianity from the time of the Baptist, but not one expounded by the Apostles.

Who knows?

... we are discussing a period when Christianity was the vanquished. That in itself may explain the paucity of corroborating evidences.
What period precisely? I never saw it as 'vanquished'. Oppressed, perhaps, but never vanquished.
 
We know there were two distinct factions, at minimum: Arius and Athanasius. Could it be, possibly, that Arius believed himself a little more Jewish? Possibly leaning to the Jewish way of understanding the world?
No, I honestly don't think so. I'd argue his was an overt Platonism. I don't know if he had any contact with Judaism per se – he uses none of that in what arguments we have. One can far more argue him a Platonist.

We have documented Constantine's antisemitism.
I would imagine, after centuries of trouble, that the institutions were antisemitic ...

We have documented Constantine and the Council changing the Sabbath Day to Sunday ...
But the change had effective occurred long before then. First mentioned in 110AD, Ignatius of Antioch (died mid 2nd century) and Justin Martyr (both died mid 2nd century) boith observed that the Sabbath had 'moved' to the Sunday.

Jewish Christians observed both, the Sabbath and the Lord's Day, but as Jesus was the Lord of the Sabbath, and as he broke with many of the Sabbath taboos, that was seen as sufficient reason to change.

... and rejection of the Jewish Holy Days in favor of more generic and cross cultural pagan holidays...best shown is Santa Claus.
Ooh, there's a jump! LOL.

We've discussed the Green Knight and Wild Man traditions in the past, you and I. It wouldn't take but a moment to show both in different contexts hidden in the architecture of any major European Cathedral.
Oh, absolutely!

'Folk religion' never quite goes away. This is itself a huge discussion.

The days the G!d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob commanded to observe were never rescinded or changed by the G!d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jesus did not command a change to the dates or purposes of any of the Jewish Holy Days.
Well ... Jesus didn't conform to the tradition of the Sabbath, did He, working on a Sunday and all ... that's where 'the rot set in', if you want to point a finger.
 
... even so, Christians were executed for not recanting their faith when given the opportunity to do so, as Pliny states.
The same passage also notes there were some who did recant and lived to see another day.

Doctrine is formed at a much higher level. Again I will say that 'educated' Christians would have had some grounding in philosophy and would use the lexicon of the day to explain and reason their beliefs. Plato was far more accommodating in that regard than Aristotle, Platonism being more mystical and speculative, Aristotelianism being rational and empirical. Aristotle's God, the Motionless Mover, is far removed from the world ...
That education was Greek/pagan, that philosophy was Greek/pagan, and that lexicon was Greek/pagan.

What period precisely?
Immediately after Bar Kochba and the Diaspora, and into the next two hundred years

I never saw it as 'vanquished'. Oppressed, perhaps, but never vanquished.
Comme si, Comme sa

Did the Romans conquer the Jews, or oppress the Jews? Either way, Christianity of that point in time was the odd man out politically.
 
But the change had effective occurred long before then. First mentioned in 110AD, Ignatius of Antioch (died mid 2nd century) and Justin Martyr (both died mid 2nd century) both observed that the Sabbath had 'moved' to the Sunday.
You do realize this only goes to support what I've been saying?

"What better way to hide in plain sight than to blend with the surrounding community and adopt their ways to a significant degree?"

"...(I)t was men who changed all that (Sabbath and Holy Days), and the change conforms nicely with already long established traditions. (*baptising them)"

Sunday was the "Venerable Day of the Sun" long before Jesus was born. Worship the sun was changed by men into worship the Son.
 
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