Rome in transition

[Thomas]

That education was Greek/pagan, that philosophy was Greek/pagan, and that lexicon was Greek/pagan.

It was the best reasoning/critical education available ... I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing.

Immediately after Bar Kochba and the Diaspora, and into the next two hundred years

I don't think it was 'vanquished' during those years, I'd say it was emergent, almost 'epidemic'. wiki: "Various theories attempt to explain how Christianity managed to spread so successfully prior to the Edict of Milan (313)."

 

[Thomas]

A well founded and historically supported opinion, but yes.

Quite ... and as there are alternative and contrary opinions, equally well-founded and supported, it remains an opinion.

 

[juantoo3]

Quite ... and as there are alternative and contrary opinions, equally well-founded and supported, it remains an opinion.

The difference being I have no agenda.

 

[Thomas]

You do realize this only goes to support what I've been saying?
"What better way to hide in plain sight than to blend with the surrounding community and adopt their ways to a significant degree?"

But the Sunday 'Lord's Day' observance wasn't adopted was it? It arose within the community, and in that sense the Christian belief in Resurrection, being the pivotal point of the entire revelation, renders the Lord's Day.

As per Ignatius: "Those who lived according to the old order of things have come to a new hope, no longer keeping the sabbath, but the Lord's Day, in which our life is blessed by him, and by his death."

"...(I)t was men who changed all that (Sabbath and Holy Days), and the change conforms nicely with already long established traditions. (*baptising them)"
Sunday was the "Venerable Day of the Sun" long before Jesus was born. Worship the sun was changed by men into worship the Son."

Quite. Changed with sound scriptural reasoning. But as Christians never worshipped the sun, that implication is not really relevant.
For pagans, every day of the week was sacred and dedicated to a god. Nor did the Romans have a 'day of rest' as such.

Certainly Constantine set up Sunday as the Day of the Sun – but he's allegiance is always arguably dubious – he's a politician, and he's looking for peace, and Christianity is a fast-growing religion, and they observe Sunday, and here he could be said to be 'going with the flow'. And, of course, for non-Christian Romans, it would be the sun – so back-slaps for Constantine all round ...

 

[Thomas]

The difference being I have no agenda.

Logically, not necessarily. The fact that you have no agenda does not make an opinion right in any absolute sense!

The Truth is my Agenda!
And with that, I shall declare myself a running mate of Trump, Johnson, Farage, et al! (Mwah-ha-ha-ha)

 

[juantoo3]

Quite. Changed with sound scriptural reasoning.

That's the problem...there's zero scriptural reasoning. Clearly, there is reasoning, but it is not scriptural. Greek logical reasoning perhaps, but absolutely not scriptural.

If the reasoning of the Church Fathers was scriptural...show me the scriptures. Shouldn't be difficult.

 

[juantoo3]

Logically, not necessarily. The fact that you have no agenda does not make an opinion right in any absolute sense!

I wouldn't want to be left...out.

The Truth is my Agenda!
And with that, I shall declare myself a running mate of Trump, Johnson, Farage, et al! (Mwah-ha-ha-ha)

What kind of truth? Seems to me truth to Plato and Aristotle is the Earth was the center of the universe...

 

[Thomas]

Scripture doesn't say what actual day of thew week the Sabbath is ... man decided that?

 

[juantoo3]

Scripture doesn't say what actual day of thew week the Sabbath is ... man decided that?

Nice try.

"2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made."

Genesis 2: 2-3 KJV

Further, it was reinforced throughout the 40 years the Jews wandered in the desert, just to make sure they knew what day of the week.

Saturday is still on the calendars as the 7th day, and Sunday is still on the calendars as the 1st day of the week.

But then we've already been over this in this thread before.

Since your claim was that the Church Fathers changed the Sabbath with "sound scriptural reasoning," care to give it another go? Can you show the scriptures they used to base that change on?

Or are you prepared to concede it was changed to the Pagan sabbath of the venerable day of the sun? And that the Jewish Holy Days were changed to Pagan holidays? Both Pagan Sabbaths and holidays were already long in existence prior to the Christian era. And the change was made to finalize the divorce from Judaism.

 

[juantoo3]

I'm not sure at what level you see these accommodations taking place?

Doctrine is formed at a much higher level. Again I will say that 'educated' Christians would have had some grounding in philosophy and would use the lexicon of the day to explain and reason their beliefs.

It would appear the shift was from the "higher level," laying the ground work and justification for the divorce.

 

[juantoo3]

Let's look at this from another vantage point, keeping in mind you said, "Scripture doesn't say what actual day of thew week the Sabbath is ... man decided that?"

Jesus and all other accounts note 3 days from the time he was laid to rest in the tomb of his uncle until he would arise resurrected.

In order for him to rise on Sunday (the Lord's Day), he would have had to have been executed on a Thursday...if he had been executed on Friday (Good Friday), he would have risen on Monday. Simple math.

Staying with that for a moment, what do bunnies and hot crossed buns have anything to do with the resurrection? What does sunrise worship (but we don't worship the sun!) have to do with the resurrection? Why do these practices in particular pre-date Christianity by hundreds, if not thousands of years?

And why did the fledging Church "baptise" these, and other, long standing pagan traditions?

The only answer that makes sense is the divorce from Judaism, and merging / melding / blending with the surrounding pagan communities.

 

[Thomas]

Let's look at this from another vantage point, keeping in mind you said, "Scripture doesn't say what actual day of thew week the Sabbath is ... man decided that?"
Jesus and all other accounts note 3 days from the time he was laid to rest in the tomb of his uncle until he would arise resurrected.
In order for him to rise on Sunday (the Lord's Day), he would have had to have been executed on a Thursday...if he had been executed on Friday (Good Friday), he would have risen on Monday. Simple math.

Yes. The Johannine timeline, which is now regarded as probably the most informed, explains this?

And why did the fledging Church "baptise" these, and other, long standing pagan traditions?

In the same way that the open-minded Christian saw that there were 'Christians before Christ' (Clement of Alexandria, I believe), they also saw that pagan practices were not necessarily evil, or void of any spiritual value – and where the elements accord with Christian understanding, then there is no issue.

What paganism did not have, in that sense, was Christ in person, but we should not say that Christ did not reach out to antiquity.

Pagan traditions enshrine man's reaching out to the Divine. They're not necessarily wrong. One can hardly say the Church should not pray for the souls of the dead because the pagans did before the church was founded. What sets the two apart is context.

I think the Hebrew Scriptures accounts the journey from a local polytheism to a universal monotheism.

In the sense that symbolism is a universal language, no symbol of any religion is unique in that regard. The most powerful symbols are ubiquitous, although they take on specific meanings according to the mode of revelation. The cross was a symbol before Christ. Bread and wine are common to pagan celebratory and other rites ...

 

[juantoo3]

I'll go along with that. Not sufficient to change my path, but sufficient to better understand yours.

Peace.