17th Angel
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AHAHAHA!! Gonna record it 
why you think Muslims invite you to Islam?!
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C
cyberpi
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You don't see the problem? What is race: an isolated club wherein a person is born into it or born outside of it. A choice not selected by the will, but selected by the birth. If the Jews proselytized then I would be relieved... because the walls of racism would be broken. As it stands the walls are still forming for yet another large fall. Same goes for every country though in a way. Inbred.
17th Angel
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I hear ya
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cyberpi
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While I consider it good that there has been some genetic diversity into Judaism, you miss the point. Are converts away from Judaism accepted? You said that Jewish children are not proselytes... they ARE Jews. There is no choice there. It is chosen at birth and the child has no choice in the matter. According to you: Born into a Jewish family, the child is a Jew.
The actual genetic makeup of the club is entirely irrelevant because the racism is in the mind. Call it ethnocentrism if you'd like. In a way every country and religion has this problem to various degrees. I can declare that my children will be of religion XYZ... or I can present religion XYZ along with ABC, DEF, GHI, etc... and leave it up to them.
In a way, as culturally or genetically diverse as the USA is, for example, racism and ethnocentrism can still exist within the mind of every member. The actual genetic makeup is not exactly the issue. Discrimination by race or religion is. Nationalism between countries is very similar. I take note of the fluidity, the ability of individuals to make the choices and the changes in relationships... and I hit a low when it comes to Judaism, both entering and leaving.
Dream
Well-Known Member
Dream said:
Sounds tricky, I know; but it is really just a way of emphasizing caution. An individual is only so independently strong, so you have to practically consider whether you can fit in. Ignore honeymooners and gift-rappers. No matter how spiritually minded you and they are, there is no point in joining a group that doesn't enjoy your company, can't speak your language, or can not assist you in finding romantic satisfaction. Recognize your limitations, or they will be tattooed onto you by the years you will lose. When you find a temple that is missing a stone exactly your size and shape, then join. You will learn and improve with age.Dawud said:
Cyberpi,
Every Jew today is a Jew by choice. They're born Jewish, yes, and they have the choice to do something else if they so please. We're no longer forced to live in ghettos isolated from the rest of the world and only some of the ultra-orthodox choose to recreate that reality. The rest of us readily engage the larger societies that surround us.
I don't see raising a child within a particular religion as ethnocentrism. I plan to raise my children Jewish while exposing them to other religions and teaching them to appreciate and honor the diversity of religion in the world. I think you see any identification with any given community as ethnocentric. That is not the way I see things. I don't think trekkies, sikhs, freemasons, union members, residents of Nebraska, non-profit activists or law firms are automatically ethnocentric and I'm pretty sure we've been down this road before. If I remember correctly, you tend to see the best thing to be a removal of labels and affiliations with communities while I tend to see the best thing as an appreciation for the diversity of labels and communities in the world. I prefer a liberal, progressive or integral perspective while you are leaning toward radicalism.
I think that in order to communicate your opinion more clearly it might be helpful if you start out with the word ethnocentrism rather than race. This last post was much easier to understand than the one before it and I've noticed that despite your articulate use of language you often end up getting into debates with other members of the forum due more to your choice of language than to the ideas that you present. Your intention may be obfuscation but I don't think that's the case. I think you want to discuss with other people and present your views, though I am uncertain how interested you are in learning about or from the views of others.
Is this more true for you of Judaism than it is of other religions? If so, why?
-- Dauer
Every Jew today is a Jew by choice. They're born Jewish, yes, and they have the choice to do something else if they so please. We're no longer forced to live in ghettos isolated from the rest of the world and only some of the ultra-orthodox choose to recreate that reality. The rest of us readily engage the larger societies that surround us.
I don't see raising a child within a particular religion as ethnocentrism. I plan to raise my children Jewish while exposing them to other religions and teaching them to appreciate and honor the diversity of religion in the world. I think you see any identification with any given community as ethnocentric. That is not the way I see things. I don't think trekkies, sikhs, freemasons, union members, residents of Nebraska, non-profit activists or law firms are automatically ethnocentric and I'm pretty sure we've been down this road before. If I remember correctly, you tend to see the best thing to be a removal of labels and affiliations with communities while I tend to see the best thing as an appreciation for the diversity of labels and communities in the world. I prefer a liberal, progressive or integral perspective while you are leaning toward radicalism.
I think that in order to communicate your opinion more clearly it might be helpful if you start out with the word ethnocentrism rather than race. This last post was much easier to understand than the one before it and I've noticed that despite your articulate use of language you often end up getting into debates with other members of the forum due more to your choice of language than to the ideas that you present. Your intention may be obfuscation but I don't think that's the case. I think you want to discuss with other people and present your views, though I am uncertain how interested you are in learning about or from the views of others.
Is this more true for you of Judaism than it is of other religions? If so, why?
-- Dauer
17th Angel
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Boom.
17th Angel
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*does that crazy (Panic attack like) dance...*
You know it.
You know it.
C
cyberpi
Guest
Every Jew? Dauer, I don't think you are able to speak for every Jew today. Are you? If you are, then outstanding. If not, then this is a generalization. A hopeful one, but an ethnocentrist generalization never-the-less. The mind works by making generalizations, but they are extrapolated guesses. To me when I see generalizations taken as fact then it is a sign of racism... an architecture within the mind. While I may wish that your statement were true, I recognize that you lack the information to truthfully make it.
Awesome.
No, that is not the issue that I raised. The issue that I raised is that a child should not be branded like a cow. A member trekkie, sikh, freemason, union member, resident of Nebraska, non-profit activist or law firm often choose to be so. But if the freemasons do not allow blacks to join... then that would racist. If the residents of Nebraska decide that only christians can move into Nebraska, and they deny other religions and denominations from living there... then that would be ethnocentric racism in my book.
For example if a synagogue, church, mosque, or temple were to throw out the members of another religion who wished to attend to learn... then I personally consider it to be a severely misguided, ingrown, and racist (ethnocentrist) synagogue, church, mosque, or temple. What if entire countries did this?
I admire the teaching of the Jane Elliott Experiment. I find it educational to read about her responses to some common statements made relative to whites and blacks. Essentially though, she can demonstrate racism with children using nothing but the color of their eyes. It is impressive to study. Jane Elliott's experiment shows that when generalizations and choices are made for children, they are perceptive to the reasons given to them and without understanding they learn and duplicate the racism. Maybe instead it is a longer nose... or a linguistic accent... or any other ethnical discriminator available to the child. As an advocate of freedom of speech, I recognize that people need to converse this one through. If the children learn to recognize generalizations then they can protect themselves with their own chosen firewall.
Today I find that raising children is upon a backdrop of the world. It is a tug for the child between what the parents teach, religions, schools, business, government, media, internet, peers, etc... I personally find that competition to be healthy. Healthy because it provides the children with choices and causes them to think it through themselves. When those choices are limited by one or the other I see future troubles. When I hear that Judaism does NOT compete for the ears of children... does not proselytize (share its viewpoints, welcome people to join) then I become suspicious. When I hear that the children of Jews ARE branded Jew, then I see the problem. When I further hear that a business only does business with a XYZ, or that you can't live with a non-XYZ, or that to move to this country you need to be a XYZ, or that you must only marry an XYZ, or that there is a punishment for an XYZ who does not want to be an XYZ anymore... those walls were built upon the same unstable foundation.
Cyberpi,
you're right. I'm not able to. And, you're less qualified to do so than I am. I'm speaking from my experiences in different parts of the Jewish community. Even modern orthodoxy is founded upon engagement with the modern world. I see much of what you've described above as an accurate description of the majority of the views you've expressed on c-r.com including the one I was responding to.
Judaism isn't denying people entry into the religion. We just don't go out of our way to encourage people to join us. There is no real reason to do so as Judaism doesn't hold that one needs to be Jewish in order to be on good terms with G!d. It's a tribal religion. Much as the native americans aren't going around trying to tell everyone they should become native american, we aren't going around telling people they should be Jewish. I see the Jewish approach as far more universalist in that it honors that different people have different paths instead of requiring others to conform to the Jewish one.
I've never seen that before. It may happen in the ultra-orthodox community.
I haven't seen that before either. If someone keeps kosher/is shomer shabbos they may very well seek out Jewish roommates because it makes things easier.
It's easier to move to Israel if Jewish but it's not a requirement.
As it is the intermarriage rate is very high. Many communities welcome interfaith couples. In this day and age it's rare to find one that doesn't outside of the Orthodox community, though mileage with different individual Jews will vary. Having dated non-Jews I know how hard it can be to make something like that work. The way I live my life is too different from that of the people I've dated. I can say that to me, not intermarrying makes a lot of sense and I think that's probably true for most people who are religious, Jewish or not.
I haven't seen that before either. I have heard of it from people who are Orthodox, not an actual punishment, just that it had an impact on their relationship to their community. But I've also heard from Orthodox Jews whose families and communities were more accepting of a change.
I get the sense your impression of Judaism is men dressed in black with big beards and side curls speaking in yiddish to each other about the terrible goyim. That is only a small minority of the community, even of the orthodox community it is a small minority. Most of us you wouldn't know we were Jewish if you saw us on the street, cept by the telltale horns and tails.
-- Dauer
you're right. I'm not able to. And, you're less qualified to do so than I am. I'm speaking from my experiences in different parts of the Jewish community. Even modern orthodoxy is founded upon engagement with the modern world. I see much of what you've described above as an accurate description of the majority of the views you've expressed on c-r.com including the one I was responding to.
Judaism isn't denying people entry into the religion. We just don't go out of our way to encourage people to join us. There is no real reason to do so as Judaism doesn't hold that one needs to be Jewish in order to be on good terms with G!d. It's a tribal religion. Much as the native americans aren't going around trying to tell everyone they should become native american, we aren't going around telling people they should be Jewish. I see the Jewish approach as far more universalist in that it honors that different people have different paths instead of requiring others to conform to the Jewish one.
I've never seen that before. It may happen in the ultra-orthodox community.
I haven't seen that before either. If someone keeps kosher/is shomer shabbos they may very well seek out Jewish roommates because it makes things easier.
It's easier to move to Israel if Jewish but it's not a requirement.
As it is the intermarriage rate is very high. Many communities welcome interfaith couples. In this day and age it's rare to find one that doesn't outside of the Orthodox community, though mileage with different individual Jews will vary. Having dated non-Jews I know how hard it can be to make something like that work. The way I live my life is too different from that of the people I've dated. I can say that to me, not intermarrying makes a lot of sense and I think that's probably true for most people who are religious, Jewish or not.
I haven't seen that before either. I have heard of it from people who are Orthodox, not an actual punishment, just that it had an impact on their relationship to their community. But I've also heard from Orthodox Jews whose families and communities were more accepting of a change.
I get the sense your impression of Judaism is men dressed in black with big beards and side curls speaking in yiddish to each other about the terrible goyim. That is only a small minority of the community, even of the orthodox community it is a small minority. Most of us you wouldn't know we were Jewish if you saw us on the street, cept by the telltale horns and tails.
-- Dauer
C
cyberpi
Guest
Dauer,
Yes we have had this discussion before and I appreciate your viewpoints. I re-entered this discussion for this statement:
For example in the 4th grade as a student I had a teacher who was Jewish and around December she spent a few hours of focused time teaching two classrooms of kids about Judaism. It was a special focused study where two classrooms were combined for an hour per day so that she could teach about her religion. I think it was good and educational; however, it was the only religion and the most focused teaching of religious beliefs I think I ever received in the public school. This was at an elementary up in Washington state, USA. I'm personally appreciative of the teaching, and the education that there was something different than Xtianity, but I did not receive teaching of Islam or Buddhism or Hindu or Christianity in the public schools. Maybe some Native American... but not really a focused study on the religious beliefs. That was in the 4th grade (age 9-10), but mind you I think it was positive. Biased, but a positive cultural or religious exposure. I had absolutely no exposure to Islam... when I graduated HS I confess that I did not even know the word.
I provide that as a data point because it seems to be a bit outside of what you have generally stated about Jews.
Yes we have had this discussion before and I appreciate your viewpoints. I re-entered this discussion for this statement:
Would you agree with me this is also a generalization? I submit the choice of whether, or whether not to inform and to welcome others to join is up to the individual.
For example in the 4th grade as a student I had a teacher who was Jewish and around December she spent a few hours of focused time teaching two classrooms of kids about Judaism. It was a special focused study where two classrooms were combined for an hour per day so that she could teach about her religion. I think it was good and educational; however, it was the only religion and the most focused teaching of religious beliefs I think I ever received in the public school. This was at an elementary up in Washington state, USA. I'm personally appreciative of the teaching, and the education that there was something different than Xtianity, but I did not receive teaching of Islam or Buddhism or Hindu or Christianity in the public schools. Maybe some Native American... but not really a focused study on the religious beliefs. That was in the 4th grade (age 9-10), but mind you I think it was positive. Biased, but a positive cultural or religious exposure. I had absolutely no exposure to Islam... when I graduated HS I confess that I did not even know the word.
I provide that as a data point because it seems to be a bit outside of what you have generally stated about Jews.
cyberpi,
it doesn't sound like that was an attempt to proselytize, just to teach about Judaism as a form of cultural exchange. As the only Jew in my kindergarten class I spoke once about Judaism at the suggestion of my teacher to expose the other students to a different culture. It wasn't necessary to have someone speak about Christianity because everyone else was Christian. When I was attending a residential high school, each Christmas season some of the Jewish parents would come in to help make latkes and tell the story of chanukah. No parents came in to talk about Christmas. Christmas was something run by the school.
I think that type of cultural exchange can be very positive. The college I attended and will be returning to is right next to a Christian seminary. There are regular exchanges between the two.
There are certainly some exceptions to the no proselytization rule but it's very rare because the religion itself is very frankly against it. In our current day there have been attempts by the ultra-orthodox, especially chabad, to get around it by actively spreading noahidism. On the far left end of the spectrum there are those who are interested in the exchange of spiritual technology in both directions.
The Jew in the Lotus is a book that covers a trip by a delegation of rabbis to meet with the Dalai Lama. He wanted to know the Jewish secret to surviving in a diaspora. One of the suggestions that came through was to develop more for householders as they're the future of the religion. Another suggestion was to create some sort of seder modeled on, I don't remember what it was supposed to be about. But so certainly religious exchange isn't the issue. I share my religion pretty openly. I just don't ever do it to try and convert others. Sometimes I think when that's something on the agenda it can be a barrier to true dialogue.
If I were to use more precise language I'd say "Judaism doesn't proselytize" because the religion is against it and it's rare to come across it. However with individual Jews mileage may vary.
-- Dauer
it doesn't sound like that was an attempt to proselytize, just to teach about Judaism as a form of cultural exchange. As the only Jew in my kindergarten class I spoke once about Judaism at the suggestion of my teacher to expose the other students to a different culture. It wasn't necessary to have someone speak about Christianity because everyone else was Christian. When I was attending a residential high school, each Christmas season some of the Jewish parents would come in to help make latkes and tell the story of chanukah. No parents came in to talk about Christmas. Christmas was something run by the school.
I think that type of cultural exchange can be very positive. The college I attended and will be returning to is right next to a Christian seminary. There are regular exchanges between the two.
There are certainly some exceptions to the no proselytization rule but it's very rare because the religion itself is very frankly against it. In our current day there have been attempts by the ultra-orthodox, especially chabad, to get around it by actively spreading noahidism. On the far left end of the spectrum there are those who are interested in the exchange of spiritual technology in both directions.
The Jew in the Lotus is a book that covers a trip by a delegation of rabbis to meet with the Dalai Lama. He wanted to know the Jewish secret to surviving in a diaspora. One of the suggestions that came through was to develop more for householders as they're the future of the religion. Another suggestion was to create some sort of seder modeled on, I don't remember what it was supposed to be about. But so certainly religious exchange isn't the issue. I share my religion pretty openly. I just don't ever do it to try and convert others. Sometimes I think when that's something on the agenda it can be a barrier to true dialogue.
If I were to use more precise language I'd say "Judaism doesn't proselytize" because the religion is against it and it's rare to come across it. However with individual Jews mileage may vary.
-- Dauer
C
cyberpi
Guest
I guess a question is at what point it becomes proselytizing according to Judaism. If one of the children asks their family to learn more and starts attending a synagogue and then goes to a Rabbi to become Jewish, then in a sense it seems to me that it was proselytizing. The teacher did not have the kids pledge allegiance to the Jewish faith, take an oath, sign contracts, or collect contributions and taxes... but who does? Besides government. So I'm a little fuzzy on what this Jewish definition of proselytizing is. It sounds to me like it is all about motive. It was not the motive of the teacher that the other children become Jewish. However, it often is the motive of parents that their children become like them. But you say that a parent does not proselytize their own children. So then I'm a little lost on this definition of proselytize. If an adherent invites someone to their religion... is that proselytizing? If an adherent just informs, I take it that is not considered proselytizing.
Regardless, I likewise consider that exchange of information good. Choice to be a requirement. Isolation and segregation prevents both.
Cyberpi,
intent is a big part of it, yeah. A Jewish person who shares their religion for the sake of a cultural exchange or something of that nature, that wouldn't be considered proselytizing even if a person who heard what they said decided to convert. Sharing with the intent to spread the religion, that would be considered proselytizing. I think the intent can sometimes color the nature of the interaction as well. For example, I don't think you'd ever see a Jewish person come to your door to tell you about Judaism or have a friend talk to you about how much Hashem has been a help for them when you're having a rough patch in life. I've gone out of my way, if a friend is having a tough time and is a spiritual person, to speak in the language of their own faith rather than mine. I would prefer my friend be happy on their own path and see no reason why it would be better that they become Jewish. When I've come across someone doing soul searching, trying to find a spiritual community, rather than suggest Judaism I'll listen to what they are going through and suggest a few religions that sound like they're in the direction that person is going. In those situations, as strange as it might sound, I will avoid suggesting Judaism. If I mention it, it tends to be in order to talk about my own experiences so that I can relate back to analogous communities in the faith they're coming from.
In terms of children, according to halachah (Jewish law) a Jew is someone who is either born to a Jewish woman or who converts. It is not, by this definition, a matter of faith or particular rites. By this definition the child is already Jewish. Halachah tends to focus on what is observable. It is usually less concerned with what is in a person's heart or mind than it is concerned with their actions in the world. There are approaches to Judaism that are more concerned with internal goings-on, sometimes obsessively so -- for example the complex theurgic kavanot of kabbalah -- but generally the focus is on that which is observable.
There are different approaches to understanding affiliation with a community. My own approach is to first look at the way a community defines itself and then, as a secondary consideration, look at the way the rest of society tends to view affiliation with that particular community. I try to place the community's own views of itself first but there are times when two community's views conflict and it's necessary to do a little more work.
-- Dauer
intent is a big part of it, yeah. A Jewish person who shares their religion for the sake of a cultural exchange or something of that nature, that wouldn't be considered proselytizing even if a person who heard what they said decided to convert. Sharing with the intent to spread the religion, that would be considered proselytizing. I think the intent can sometimes color the nature of the interaction as well. For example, I don't think you'd ever see a Jewish person come to your door to tell you about Judaism or have a friend talk to you about how much Hashem has been a help for them when you're having a rough patch in life. I've gone out of my way, if a friend is having a tough time and is a spiritual person, to speak in the language of their own faith rather than mine. I would prefer my friend be happy on their own path and see no reason why it would be better that they become Jewish. When I've come across someone doing soul searching, trying to find a spiritual community, rather than suggest Judaism I'll listen to what they are going through and suggest a few religions that sound like they're in the direction that person is going. In those situations, as strange as it might sound, I will avoid suggesting Judaism. If I mention it, it tends to be in order to talk about my own experiences so that I can relate back to analogous communities in the faith they're coming from.
In terms of children, according to halachah (Jewish law) a Jew is someone who is either born to a Jewish woman or who converts. It is not, by this definition, a matter of faith or particular rites. By this definition the child is already Jewish. Halachah tends to focus on what is observable. It is usually less concerned with what is in a person's heart or mind than it is concerned with their actions in the world. There are approaches to Judaism that are more concerned with internal goings-on, sometimes obsessively so -- for example the complex theurgic kavanot of kabbalah -- but generally the focus is on that which is observable.
There are different approaches to understanding affiliation with a community. My own approach is to first look at the way a community defines itself and then, as a secondary consideration, look at the way the rest of society tends to view affiliation with that particular community. I try to place the community's own views of itself first but there are times when two community's views conflict and it's necessary to do a little more work.
-- Dauer
C
cyberpi
Guest
I also oppose governments for this... iniquity. It is one thing to uphold a standard... it is another when the standard is a parental or genetic line.
Okey. I don't see it as a bad thing at all. I think you tend to be so against the idea of group identity that you tend to see a lot of what I would call neutral expressions that can be expressed in a healthy way as quite wrong. Like I said before, I think you tend toward radicalism while I tend toward a progressive, liberal or integral approach.