The God Delusion and its Repercussions

[Dream]

Well I can see what Tao's talking about. Growing up religious can get complicated, and I've met lots of screwed up religious people. Growing up in a small Christian school threw me a few curves. It certainly is reasonable to wonder why or at least how.

 

[cyberpi]

lol, you call that logic? 93% of child abusers consider themselves religious and 93% of Americans consider themselves religious = the vast majority of child abuse is carried out by religious people. There is no way to slide out of it it is FACT.

According to the US census the vast majority of everything done in the USA is carried out by religious people... 93%. I'm sure building churches, mosques, or synagogues is maybe more like 100%.

So religion gives society no net morality gain.

Does law or morality give society non-sinners?

Would you please quote me on where I ever did such a thing?

From the OP:

Statistics show that the more religious and fundamental the 'head' of a household to be the more likely they are to physically and sexually abuse their children and partner.

From the same report the best estimate is that almost 40 million children have suffered sexual abuse which goes to show that quite contrary to the image you try to push here, ( and no I have not forgotten I have told of my own ordeal as a young boy here where you can read it), victims of abuse are no more likely than the general population to become abusers.

Tao I'm unaware of your personal ordeals but I submit it is a healthy sign if you are able to disclose them. 40 million children is 13% of the US population whereas that report indicates 47% and a progression of proportionate severity. The statistical link there looks pretty strong to me.

You are not engaging me in good faith but only setting out to undermine what I say with foundless slurs. Which is a form of abuse.

False.

 

[Tao_Equus]

According to the US census the vast majority of everything done in the USA is carried out by religious people... 93%. I'm sure building churches, mosques, or synagogues is maybe more like 100%.

Do you not get it...really not get it? Religion and religious moral high ground is a myth. It does not exist. It protects nobody. Least of all the 40 million abused children.

Does law or morality give society non-sinners?

No but the law does determine what is or is not a criminal act. Religions have been time and again found guilty not only of having abuse endemic within their institutions but of trying to cover up the truth. This is immorality built upon immorality. Criminal act built upon criminal act. To try and turn it round and say the religious are no more predisposed to morality than the atheist begs the question what the hell use is religion anyway? It has no authority as a way of life.

From the OP:

Where exactly in my OP do I accuse you or any individual of sex crimes?

40 million children is 13% of the US population whereas that report indicates 47% and a progression of proportionate severity. The statistical link there looks pretty strong to me.

.

Nonsense. 0.2 % of the population is on the sex offenders register. I doubt that 1/2 of them are convicted paedophiles but for example lets say they are. That is 0.1% of which half of them were themselves abused so thats 0.05%...and that is generous. So 1 in 26, under 4%, of abused children will go on to be an abuser. There is no link. Quite to the contrary in fact. From personal experience in survivor groups you will find that victims are acutely aware and sensitive to this issue and the majority are those least likely to abuse a child and the most likely to spot the tell tale signs. This notion that the abused become abusers is an urban myth when it comes to sex crimes at least.

False

You call me a liar and accuse me of calling you a child abuser.... how else am I meant to interpret you?

I have substantiated my original assertion. I have no more to say to you on that subject.


Tao

 

[cyberpi]

Do you not get it...really not get it? Religion and religious moral high ground is a myth. It does not exist. It protects nobody. Least of all the 40 million abused children.

I suppose you could say that Jesus Christ was not protected either... but that really depends on your viewpoint and what it is you think a person is protected from.

No but the law does determine what is or is not a criminal act.

It does? How criminal.

To try and turn it round and say the religious are no more predisposed to morality than the atheist begs the question what the hell use is religion anyway? It has no authority as a way of life.

What has authority with you... nature? Evolution? Governments?

Where exactly in my OP do I accuse you or any individual of sex crimes?

Where exactly in my post do I accuse you of accusing an individual of sex crimes?

That is 0.1% of which half of them were themselves abused so thats 0.05%...and that is generous. So 1 in 26, under 4%, of abused children will go on to be an abuser. There is no link. Quite to the contrary in fact.

I'll improve on your math and call it: (.047%*300M/40M) = 1 in 283, or .35%. Whereas for the non-sexually abused (.053%*300M/(300M - 40M)) = 1 in 1635, or .06%. Using the statistics of the registered offenders may be misleading but regardless of the number of offenders there is a significant increase in the risk factor there: (x 5.8). The 47% in that study is unavoidable as a significant statistical link unless of course 141M of the 300M population had been sexually assaulted as a child... or 47%. If it is 40M in 300M (1 in 7.5 people sexually assaulted as a minor), which I think is an overtly high estimate, then the equation for the probability increase is = .47/.53*(300 - 40)/40. Cold hard science.

This notion that the abused become abusers is an urban myth when it comes to sex crimes at least.

Not according to the scientific research and literature that I've been reading thanks to your pressing upon me to dig up the statistics.

 

[wil]

Namaste Tao,

I know well the prose of Gibran on children, it was read by my preacher when they were baptized I also allow my children to explore all religions and none as is there choice. Currently my son questions just about everything and claims atheism It doesn't preclude, excuse or stop him from exploring, reading and questioning, I still require he does all these.

The fact that there is evil in the world does not prove G!d does not exist, nor that G!d is evil. Your very reference to Gibran's essay should be examined in this regard. Our creations are their own entity. Somehow you now wish to blame the progenitor?

 

[Tao_Equus]

Where exactly in my post do I accuse you of accusing an individual of sex crimes?

Post 19

Hardly fair of you to try and derogatively call me more likely to physically and sexually abuse my children and partner

Well Cyberpi I have for a long time now tried to be patient with you, to keep things light hearted and I had managed to maintain some respect for your opinions. But you clearly have no desire to discuss what I set out to discuss. You have for reasons known best to you tried to re-interpret and give a false impression of what I said in my OP. We have established that religion does nothing to aid net morality within society though, so not all was lost. Never the less you have made a return to your single line rhetoricals, and I am not going to play your game.

Tao

 

[Tao_Equus]

Namaste Tao,

I know well the prose of Gibran on children, it was read by my preacher when they were baptized I also allow my children to explore all religions and none as is there choice. Currently my son questions just about everything and claims atheism It doesn't preclude, excuse or stop him from exploring, reading and questioning, I still require he does all these.

The fact that there is evil in the world does not prove G!d does not exist, nor that G!d is evil. Your very reference to Gibran's essay should be examined in this regard. Our creations are their own entity. Somehow you now wish to blame the progenitor?

No Wil, I do not wish to blame at all. I wish to examine. Not a cursory skirt across the issues but a true weighing of the pro's and cons of what religion gives to mankind, and what it denies us. There are several parts to examine because of course religion pervades every aspect of living in almost every society.
The vast majority of atheists I have known are good people with a strong moral identity, they are intelligent and well balanced and have a dynamic and questioning approach to life. They like truth for truths sake.
Religion as a whole is very unlike that. Most people have religious belief ingrained in them when very young, by family, education and the society they live in. Such pervasive indoctrination is the policy of the religious establishments. It is for them, not us, that this system is rigorously upheld.

For most people religion is something they have never not had and for many its as permanent as what gave the castrato his piercing voice. They in effect surrender to the top down institutionalised way of thinking that historically and to this day has given power to the global warlords, started the wars, maintained them and justified then in the face of all reason. I think in society we have gone a good way down the path of no longer fearing someone because of the colour of his skin, but the peddling of hate based on his religion is as strong as ever. And the institutions nurture this. Religions are often the biggest pedlars of unhealthy nationalism. God and country is a ubiquitous phrase amongst the warring factions.

My OP only uses the word "religion", not spirituality, and this is quite deliberate. I think a long long way from all people who claim religious affiliation have ever had the independence of mind to discover what spirituality really is. It is something they are given, not something they discover. So in the context of the totality of my OP I ask is "religion" a disease. Not belief itself, not personal spirituality, but the religions that march into our schools, pervade our societies, are a tool of our governments and march so many off to an early grave.

Tao

 

[wil]

I think the indication that religion is the cause of wars and death is an oversimplification. Religion is a convenient tool of the power elite. It is no different than catapults, tanks, bombers, or patriotism or race or whatever else someone can get a wedge in to create differences.

Many wars have been fought with Christians on both sides, not Christian factions fighting over their denomination, in these cases other differences created the wedge. Same as Muslims, Hindus, whoever fighting each other. But when we can find a religious difference, it is highlighted, both by those instigating and by those reviewing.

I don't believe the current conflicts are related to Christian v. Muslim, do you? I think many of those instigating these conflicts use the predjudice of the people in this regard to fan the fire.

I was raised Christian. I've explored other thoughts, I've been agnostic and atheist, cursed G!d and questioned. I'm absolutely comfortable in my thought now. I don't feel the need to foist my beliefs on others, and don't wish others to foist theirs on me.

If you think I'm diseased, so be it, it is ok for you to think that way. But if you try to pass laws saying I am required to drink your koolaid or antibiotic, I'll not take it quietly.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I think the indication that religion is the cause of wars and death is an oversimplification. Religion is a convenient tool of the power elite. It is no different than catapults, tanks, bombers, or patriotism or race or whatever else someone can get a wedge in to create differences.

I do not say it is the cause. A biological weapon is a tool of war. The disease is a tool not a cause.

Many wars have been fought with Christians on both sides, not Christian factions fighting over their denomination, in these cases other differences created the wedge. Same as Muslims, Hindus, whoever fighting each other. But when we can find a religious difference, it is highlighted, both by those instigating and by those reviewing.

Exactly. And I think you will find even when there has been an inter-denominational war then the level of piety becomes the question. But I maintain that almost without exception religion is a primary tool and its removal from the equation would make it more difficult to gain support for war.

I don't believe the current conflicts are related to Christian v. Muslim, do you? I think many of those instigating these conflicts use the predjudice of the people in this regard to fan the fire.

Without a doubt this is a holy war. Our TV screens, (remember who owns the media) have been full of historical programs going over the minutia of the crusades. Nobody trusts what a politician says and so when he says it is not a "Holy War" we can be damned sure that it is. Just take a look at Bush's references to the Christian God in the run up to his invasion. Of course its pumped as a holy war.

I was raised Christian. I've explored other thoughts, I've been agnostic and atheist, cursed G!d and questioned. I'm absolutely comfortable in my thought now. I don't feel the need to foist my beliefs on others, and don't wish others to foist theres on me.

The first 4 words there show that desoite your adult wish to be free to decide you had no choice as a child. This is true of most religious people. Which is a key question in my OP, should religious education be forced on children. We dont force on them Adam Smiths economic theory which is far less complex than religion.

If you think I'm diseased, so be it, it is ok for you to think that way. But if you try to pass laws saying I am required to drink your koolaid or antibiotic, I'll not take it quietly.

You mean like this from the party thats trying to "Christianise" British politics :
BBC NEWS | Health | No jabs, no school says Labour MP

Tao

 

[wil]

IThe first 4 words there show that desoite your adult wish to be free to decide you had no choice as a child. This is true of most religious people. Which is a key question in my OP, should religious education be forced on children. We dont force on them Adam Smiths economic theory which is far less complex than religion.

Sure we do, we start out by foisting our genes on them, be they white, black, whatever, and then we foist our economic class on them, and then our predjudices and beliefs, whatever they may be. And now you wish that we deny them our spiritual beliefs. So you are taking your kids to Sunday school? The mosque? The synagogue? The ashram?? or are you foisting your godless atheistic beliefs on them?? You should be jailed, drawn and quartered!!

I don't believe that in any stretch of your imagination, but am making a point. Your children will be absorbing your beliefs and understanding just as mine get mine, no choice, unless of course you are sending them off to military school or putting them up for adoption.

Sorry over here in the US you atheists have to take the vaccines to get into school, only those with religious objections get the reprieve...hello pandora!

Oh and as for me...the rest of the story...christian yes, non denominational. My mom drug us off to Sunday school, as we moved alot she picked churches based on neighbors and coworkers recommendations, so we were Lutheran, Presbytarian, Baptist and Methodist at various times in various cities and states. My dad never went to church, he refused to go to listen to a sermon and not be able to stand up and question the preacher after the talk. So he stayed home doing projects in the garage/house in the winter and in the yard/garden in the summer. By second grade I was home with dad instead of going to church with mom and my sisters... I'm appreciative of the religious education and impetus to question that my parents allowed me in my youth, I hope my kids are and yours are too. I feel if they hadn't introduced me to the variety the world provides, they would not have done their job. I'll agree with you it is a shame when a child is raised with only one viewpoint, be it any religion or no religion.

So Unitarian Universalists, that is an interesting group. I spoke at a couple different centers, and you talk for 20 minutes and then get Q&A for 20 minutes...my dad would have liked that. They've got all beliefs there, including Atheists, and agnostics, pretty open bunch, I like them, but I don't attend there, it doesn't feed me as much as where I do attend.

And I don't attend a place where we get to stand up and question, we get a sermon. Actually I don't, I get the tapes, I'm busy indocrinating kids with these horrendous mythological beliefs of which you speak.
I've taught little guys and gals but now work mostly with preteens and teenagers...and boy do they question and have their opinions, as I have mine, it is great exploration for all of us. And you atheists are not the only ones that have a problem with our teachings, you are on the side of the orthodox and dogmatic screaming heresy...as I teach...

-God is absolute good, everywhere present.​

-Human beings have a spark of divinity within them, the Christ Spirit within. Their very essence is of God, and therefore they are inherently good also.
-Human beings create their experiences by the activity of their liking. Everything in the manifest realm has its beginning in thought.
-Prayer is creative thinking that heightens the connection with God-Mind and therefore brings forth wisdom, healing , prosperity, and everything good.
-Knowing and understanding the laws of life, also called Truth, are not enough. A person must also live the Truth that he or she knows.

Now our understanding of G!d in no way looks like Santa, nor do we believe there is some critter named the devil...but we teach personal responsibility in our lives, and attempt to nurture thinkers.

 

[Dondi]

You know, I don't often refer to another's post, and I hope he don't mind, but I thought this might be pertinent to the conversation:

Santa vs God - Post #27

 

[wil]

You know, I don't often refer to another's post, and I hope he don't mind, but I thought this might be pertinent to the conversation:

Santa vs God - Post #27

Namaste Dondi,

too funny whilst you were referring to that thread, I was referring to this thread... As they were started in near time proximity I think they are sisters but I don't know which one gave rise to which...

 

[Tao_Equus]

Wil,

Let me first stress that not for one moment do I question that you provide this tuition to these children for anything other than what you perceive to be the best intentions. But you are still peddling myths not truths.

-God is absolute good, everywhere present. A point of view not a fact.​

-Human beings have a spark of divinity within them, the Christ Spirit within. Their very essence is of God, and therefore they are inherently good also. A point of view not a fact. The fact shows that our notions of good are misunderstood and are an evolutionary adaptation common in many social mammals. Not God given. Good is taught, we are not born with it.
-Human beings create their experiences by the activity of their liking. Everything in the manifest realm has its beginning in thought. So why should thought be forced to have the scaffold of faith?
-Prayer is creative thinking that heightens the connection with God-Mind and therefore brings forth wisdom, healing , prosperity, and everything good. Atheists too can meditate and there is not one bit of evidence to support the contention that prayer effects anything.
-Knowing and understanding the laws of life, also called Truth, are not enough. A person must also live the Truth that he or she knows. Faith in a deity not necessary to live a moral life and as demonstrated this is not aided by having religious beliefs.
Everything you teach is subjective not objective. You teach from the start point of your manifesto not from the blank page. By the time you get the kids they have already been subjected to a decade of indoctrination. Their probity is an expression of that hard to suppress need in many, but not all, people to have the real truth. But in such a setting, and after a decade of schooling, only the smartest and most independent have any questions that will really test you. The rest will remain in the one mindset and pass it on to the next generation unquestioningly.

Our genes are a fact. The colour of our skin also, and our race, our country of birth and all the things you mention. All fact. Religious belief is not a fact in the same way. It is a schooled behaviour. It is not inherent in man.

As a child I was in both the boyscouts and the boys brigade. Both of them held their meetings in the church hall and we were obliged to attend church on occasion for ceremonial purposes. The motto's we had to learn were riddled with religious sayings. In school every morning the first thing we did was to recite the Lords Prayer and the weekly assembly included hymns and prayers. This is still the system to this day and my oldest son still has to do what I did. So despite growing up in a household where religion was never mentioned I was certainly taught what standard worship is. In addition to that we had 3 hours a week of religious education, heavily biased to the protestant, (which is what non-denominational means in Scotland), faith but still inclusive of all major world religions. So to sum up, I did not grow up untouched by religion. I was not completely ignorant of the message they were selling. But always to me it seemed insincere or beyond credible. I think the reason for that was because I was not 'infected' in my pre-school years. The essence of what a person is to become is moulded in the first few years of life. I do not object to religious education across the board but I feel strongly it should not happen till the intellect is sufficiently developed to handle it. Personally I would say this does not happen till around age 14.

I think most of us want to belong. To feel like we are a part of a community. This is what makes religion so powerful a force, religion fills that need by providing the resources to maintain a place of gathering and a function of shared purpose. If we were to ditch the superstitious mumbo jumbo and concentrate less on often meaningless hymns, sermons and prayers and instead focus on creative secular improvement and education then I think we would see a net gain in morality. But religions divide far more than thy unify and they all sell conjecture as truth. Which is the most important part of all. How can society as a whole be expected to strive for truth when the truth they accept is no truth at all and subconsciously they all know they have all bought into the big lie.

Tao

 

[wil]

You call them point of views, I call them beliefs.

You say

-Human beings create their experiences by the activity of their liking. Everything in the manifest realm has its beginning in thought. So why should thought be forced to have the scaffold of faith?
-Prayer is creative thinking that heightens the connection with God-Mind and therefore brings forth wisdom, healing , prosperity, and everything good. Atheists too can meditate and there is not one bit of evidence to support the contention that prayer effects anything.

Maybe because that is where they are and that is where I am? You have a reason it shouldn't be taught there? And if it is being taught elsewhere, I get to reinforce.

Not one bit of evidence, that doesn't hold water, it changes millions daily.

"Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Prayer doesn't change G!d or the situation but my perception of it...every time.

 

[Tao_Equus]

You say Maybe because that is where they are and that is where I am? You have a reason it shouldn't be taught there? And if it is being taught elsewhere, I get to reinforce.

Not sure I understand that

Not one bit of evidence, that doesn't hold water, it changes millions daily. Prayer doesn't change G!d or the situation but my perception of it...every time.

You state here God is not required. Equally take god out of it and you can have:

"May I find in myself the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
​

the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."
​

Any less inspirational or sage?

Tao
​

 

[wil]

Not sure I understand that

You state here God is not required. Equally take god out of it and you can have:

"May I find in myself the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, ​

the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."​

Any less inspirational or sage?​

Tao​

You asked why I teach a portion of what I teach in a religious context. I said that is where I am and that is where they are. ie I am teaching youth education in a Sunday school program, they are brought there by their parents for a religious education, the concept of the power of our thoughts and words affecting our reality is part of our church's beliefs, hence we teach it there.

I said prayer does not affect G!d, not that I can take G!d out of it. Although one could, but many prefer to leave him in. This isn't a quote of an atheist, it is a prayer of St. Francis, if atheists prefer to utilize his quote without G!d, that would be their choice. If atheists prefer to take every story or quote they like in religious settings/texts and co-opt them by removing the references to G!d so be it. Doesn't mean we have to though...

 

[Paladin]

You asked why I teach a portion of what I teach in a religious context. I said that is where I am and that is where they are. ie I am teaching youth education in a Sunday school program, they are brought there by their parents for a religious education, the concept of the power of our thoughts and words affecting our reality is part of our church's beliefs, hence we teach it there.

I said prayer does not affect G!d, not that I can take G!d out of it. Although one could, but many prefer to leave him in. This isn't a quote of an atheist, it is a prayer of St. Francis, if atheists prefer to utilize his quote without G!d, that would be their choice. If atheists prefer to take every story or quote they like in religious settings/texts and co-opt them by removing the references to G!d so be it. Doesn't mean we have to though...

Ummm did you mean Rheinhold Niebuhr?

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+3]The Serenity Prayer[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference. [/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=-1]--Reinhold Niebuhr[/SIZE][/FONT]
​

 

[Tao_Equus]

If atheists prefer to take every story or quote they like in religious settings/texts and co-opt them by removing the references to G!d so be it. Doesn't mean we have to though...

No we dont have to, and most likely most will not. But it is interesting to note that you can deduct the religion or the belief in a higher power and still lose nothing.

Tao

 

[wil]

Ummm did you mean Rheinhold Niebuhr?

I see the quote all over attributed to Saint Francis, I don't know. As Neibuhr was a preacher one of the references I saw to him in regards to this was 'from a sermon' odds are he borrowed it in his talk as it is attributed to him in any number of ways. I don't know.

 

[wil]

No we dont have to, and most likely most will not. But it is interesting to note that you can deduct the religion or the belief in a higher power and still lose nothing.

Tao

Ah, that is because the higher power is at work anyway! But isn't that the key? The information comes from religious sources. You secularize it, sanitize it, but the essence is still there. I work in school settings or non religioius settings all the time and espouse the same stuff I teach in Sunday School, but without the G!d reference, as that is what is required, but I still get to teach the essence. And the presence is there anyway!

No nobody holds the patent on virtue. As far as I can see most who claim virtue are often knocked off that pedestal.