The God Delusion and its Repercussions

Tao_Equus said:
No we dont have to, and most likely most will not. But it is interesting to note that you can deduct the religion or the belief in a higher power and still lose nothing.

Tao
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Incredibly profound statement and cuts across both sides of the argument, but I wonder will it be summarily dismissed?
The significance of this idea tells me that there is a reality, the depths of which have not been explored by religion or reason alone. But my experience tells me that once again in the rush to prove a personal point it will go by unnoticed.
The Religious see the Atheist as disconnected and apart from the divine source, the Atheist sees the Religious as deluded, living within a fiercely defended illusion.
But why look for a third possibility when there is a trench warfare going on?
 
Paladin said:
Incredibly profound statement and cuts across both sides of the argument, but I wonder will it be summarily dismissed?

But why look for a third possibility when there is a trench warfare going on?
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Oops, did I summarily dismiss?? Yes I reverted completely to my understanding. And my understanding was In the beginning there was the word and the word was G!d.

The power of the word is incredible, call it prayer or whatever, but I obviously come from a Christian perspective, and without mentioning Christ or G!d teach the power of the word.

Do we need another thread to explore on the third possibility?
 
Paladin said:
Incredibly profound statement and cuts across both sides of the argument, but I wonder will it be summarily dismissed?
The significance of this idea tells me that there is a reality, the depths of which have not been explored by religion or reason alone. But my experience tells me that once again in the rush to prove a personal point it will go by unnoticed.
The Religious see the Atheist as disconnected and apart from the divine source, the Atheist sees the Religious as deluded, living within a fiercely defended illusion.
But why look for a third possibility when there is a trench warfare going on?
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Shut up and pass me the shovel ;)
 
wil said:
That makes both sister threads with great chuckles (rotflmao for the rest of ya)moments apart. thanx Tao, Palladin and China!:D
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:eek: You may well laugh at one man with one shovel. You have the Jesus Christ Brigade (JCB) :rolleyes:

Tao
 
The power of the word is incredible, call it prayer or whatever, but I obviously come from a Christian perspective, and without mentioning Christ or G!d teach the power of the word.-Will
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In the beginning was the word and the word was with God....

This Bible quote originates in India


(wikapedia quote)

Mantras were originally conceived in the great Hindu scriptures known as the Vedas. Within practically all Hindu scriptures, the writing is formed in painstakingly crafted two line "shlokas" and most mantras follow this pattern, although mantras are often found in single line or even single word form.
The most basic mantra is Aum, which in Hinduism is known as the "pranava mantra," the source of all mantras. The philosophy behind this is the Hindu idea of nama-rupa (name-form), which supposes that all things, ideas or entities in existence, within the phenomenological cosmos, have name and form of some sort. The most basic name and form is the primordial vibration of Aum, as it is the first manifested nama-rupa of Brahman, the unmanifest reality/unreality. Essentially, before existence and beyond existence is only One reality, Brahman, and the first manifestation of Brahman in existence is Aum. For this reason, Aum is considered to be the most fundamental and powerful mantra, and thus is prefixed and suffixed to all Hindu prayers. While some mantras may invoke individual Gods or principles, the most fundamental mantras, like 'Aum,' the 'Shanti Mantra,' the 'Gayatri Mantra' and others all ultimately focus on the One reality.
In the Hindu tantra the universe is sound. The supreme (para) brings forth existence through the Word (Shabda). Creation consists of vibrations at various frequencies and amplitudes giving rise to the phenomena of the world. The purest vibrations are the var.na, the imperishable letters which are revealed to us, imperfectly as the audible sounds and visible forms.
Var.nas are the atoms of sound. A complex symbolic association was built up between letters and the elements, gods, signs of the zodiac, parts of the body -- letters became rich in these associations. For example in the Aitrareya-aranya-Upanishad we find:
"The mute consonants represent the earth, the sibilants the sky, the vowels heaven. The mute consonants represent fire, the sibilants air, the vowels the sun? The mute consonants represent the eye, the sibilants the ear, the vowels the mind" In effect each letter became a mantra and the language of the Vedas, Sanskrit, corresponds profoundly to the nature of things. Thus the Vedas come to represent reality itself. The seed syllable Aum represents the underlying unity of reality, which is Brahman.

[edit] Mantra japa

Mantra japa was a concept of the Vedic sages that incorporates mantras as one of the main forms of puja, or worship, whose ultimate end is seen as moksha/liberation. Essentially, Mantra Japa means repetition of mantra,[3] and it has become an established practice of all Hindu streams, from the various Yoga to Tantra. It involves repetition of a mantra over and over again, usually in cycles of auspicious numbers (in multiples of three), the most popular being 108. For this reason, Hindu malas (bead necklaces) developed, containing 108 beads and a head bead (sometimes referred to as the 'meru', or 'guru' bead). The devotee performing japa using his/her fingers counts each bead as he/she repeats the chosen mantra. Having reached 108 repetitions, if he/she wishes to continue another cycle of mantras, the devotee must turn the mala around without crossing the head bead and repeat.
It is said that through japa the devotee attains one-pointedness, or extreme focus, on the chosen deity or principal idea of the mantra. The vibrations and sounds of the mantra are considered extremely important, and thus reverberations of the sound are supposed to awaken the Kundalini[4] or spiritual life force and even stimulate chakras according to many Hindu schools of thought.[5]
Any shloka from holy Hindu texts like the Vedas, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, Yoga Sutra, even the Mahabharata , Ramayana, Durga saptashati or Chandi are considered powerful enough to be repeated to great effect, and have therefore the status of a mantra.


I have a different take on the matter.....

As we seek the source, the meaning, the essence of existence, we foolishly attempt to describe what we discover and therein lies the problem.

Words…



The infinite source of everything needs no human contrived words to exist.

Describing experience is a slipery slope. Once the human conversation began it was all downhill from there... the only way out of this black hole is to be re-absorbed back into the infinite source...

When two galaxies collide in the vacuum of space does it make a sound? Does anyone hear? Does anyone care? Does it matter? Is this a beautiful thing or a catastrophe?


Words have screwed up everything…


If you experience something amazing it is best to keep it to yourself….
Is the Human perspective unique? AUM, I think not...

~Bruno
 
"Creation consists of vibrations at various frequencies and amplitudes giving rise to the phenomena of the world."

Crazy coincidence how closely this matches current thinking.
 
It wouldn't surprise me if science eventually bore out much of the ancient Hindu ideas. I'm especially fond of Advaita.
 
On the subject of ancient Hindu texts I remember years ago reading some book or other that postulated that some 20,000 years ago or so there was a civilisation that was a scientifically knowledgeable as our is today. It was a global civilisation that had flight, (using zepplin-like balloons), highly advanced medicine and, as the book postulated, gave rise to many of our God myths.

Anyone think this a credible idea?


Tao
 
Tao_Equus said:
On the subject of ancient Hindu texts I remember years ago reading some book or other that postulated that some 20,000 years ago or so there was a civilisation that was a scientifically knowledgeable as our is today. It was a global civilisation that had flight, (using zepplin-like balloons), highly advanced medicine and, as the book postulated, gave rise to many of our God myths.

Anyone think this a credible idea?


Tao
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credible - offering reasonable grounds for being believed

this from the guy who wants to argue the delusion of G!d!

Sorry Tao, I couldn't help myself. To be honest, I can't put it to credible, but I also can't deny the possibility of something similar. And yes, to me, this is the stuff myths are made of. Ezekial comes to mind, and the peruvian gold plane toys, and the heiroglyphs in Egypt...
 
wil said:
Oops, did I summarily dismiss?? Yes I reverted completely to my understanding. And my understanding was In the beginning there was the word and the word was G!d.

The power of the word is incredible, call it prayer or whatever, but I obviously come from a Christian perspective, and without mentioning Christ or G!d teach the power of the word.

Do we need another thread to explore on the third possibility?
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Yes you do. I say that is an obviously non-Christian perspective.

Why am I your huckleberry? The power of a word does not come from the word. Whether or not power is applied to a word is the choice of the speaker and the beholder. Some may enjoy their deviancy of modelling themselves as farm animals... line them up in an army where you can sometimes hear the sounds emanating from the corps... "Mooooooo", "Bahahaha", "Arrruff ruff". I'm not saying the brain does not unconciously take in the suggestions. It does. I am saying that a person is more than their brain... as did Christ.

For example: you can hit me in the knee and my knee might jerk and react. I am saying that I am not the knee jerk reaction. Are you? Similarly you can suggest something to me and my brain might react. I am not the immediate brain reaction either. But if you ask me to jerk my knee or to ask me to think about something, then I will... and I am the one who did it.

So I do not celebrate the power of hitting knees... I do not celebrate that kind of power in a word. As you hilite the 'power of the word' it looks to me like the 'power of knee jerking'. Fuel for the atheist... it surely has not been left untouched. There shall be studies of how to jerk, when to jerk, why to jerk, etc... the quest for newsworthy research, "6 out of 10 knee jerkers lost weight!" Censorship comes next... can't have that knee jerking here. But lets step back... and ask... are we really that twitching knee?
 
wil said:
credible - offering reasonable grounds for being believed

this from the guy who wants to argue the delusion of G!d!

Sorry Tao, I couldn't help myself. To be honest, I can't put it to credible, but I also can't deny the possibility of something similar. And yes, to me, this is the stuff myths are made of. Ezekial comes to mind, and the peruvian gold plane toys, and the heiroglyphs in Egypt...
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The reason I mentioned it was because the book referred directly to passages from ancient Hindu texts. To me the texts are coincidental and open to interpretation. What is far more compelling to me are the ruins that are submerged in the sea off Japan, the Caribbean and Indonesia that were flooded at least 12,000 years ago. The downside to the theory is a complete absence of any artefacts.

tao
 
Tao_Equus said:
What is far more compelling to me are the ruins that are submerged in the sea off Japan, the Caribbean and Indonesia that were flooded at least 12,000 years ago. The downside to the theory is a complete absence of any artefacts.
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They moved before the flood.
Tao_Equus said:
The internet is full of such sites catering to this....would you like some links?


:rolleyes:
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I was looking for that response, as I sure didn't know how to respond otherwise.
 
wil said:
They moved before the flood.
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For you to believe in the flood as told in the Bible, an act of punishment, you have to believe in a pro-active God who watches us and is more than a little murderous. I just could not sleep at night imagining such a deity to be real. ;)
 
Tao_Equus said:
For you to believe in the flood as told in the Bible, an act of punishment, you have to believe in a pro-active God who watches us and is more than a little murderous. I just could not sleep at night imagining such a deity to be real. ;)
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I was referring to your flooded cities and the lack of artifacts. As to the Noah version or flood stories by any other religion I believe them to have basis in fact (their ancestors experienced floods) but the stories to be stories.

I'm not of the opinion that every word in the bible is litterally factual, or a need to believe that to believe in G!d. I believe as you that religions as we know them today are the creations of man. And G!d as many interpret today and in the past is G!d made in man's image.
 
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