Santa V God

Tao,
Are religious beliefs chosen, or socially programmed?

You appear to have decided that they are socially programmed and that they must be eradicated in order to save children from themselves.

Does a child choose between good and bad deeds, or does a child duplicate whatever is given and taught to them whether it is good or whether it is bad?

Same question with emphasis on the mind of a child.

The emphasis on my previous post is on children as a whole and works on the assumption that children are naturally happy and sociable. But the mental state of a child is highly dependent on its environment and the behaviour of those around it. The old nature/nurture debate. I do not want to save them from themselves. Rather I want their 'selves' to be allowed to grow and mature free from the ideologies currently force fed to them. It is what they are given that is damaging, not what they innately are.

tao
 
Tao, we have seen human rights violations under atheist regimes such as Stalin and Mao, (who between the two of them, were responsible for the deaths of 60 million people) so religion is not to blame there. Consider this instead:

(click on thumbnail for larger image)

I always expect that to crop up sooner or later in a discussion like this. It is not the fault of the average atheist that history threw up and gave power to such monsters. Supplanting a religious ideology with a radical political one is not what I am saying here at all. If what I am saying was carried through to conclusion it would be as difficult for dictatorships of politics to arise as religions.

tao
 
Netti,

nice, 'clever' post. :) You raise some very good points. But you are going to have to wait for my response to them ;)

tao
 
The emphasis on my previous post is on children as a whole and works on the assumption that children are naturally happy and sociable. But the mental state of a child is highly dependent on its environment and the behavior of those around it. The old nature/nurture debate. I do not want to save them from themselves. Rather I want their 'selves' to be allowed to grow and mature free from the ideologies currently force fed to them. It is what they are given that is damaging, not what they innately are.
Tao, what percent of children in the UK receive ANY religious upbringing at all?

Since the UK probably observes separation of church and state, how likely is it that they are receiving religious education in public schools?

So where is the "forced feeding" occurring exactly?

And which segment of the adult population is doing it? Recall that the UK has a secular majority. Most don't believe in G-d. So are you saying there is some conspiracy run by a minority that is prevailing on society as a whole via a surreptitious indoctrination that's happening outside the purview of normal intitutional processes?
 
Tao, what percent of children in the UK receive ANY religious upbringing at all?

Since the UK probably observes separation of church and state, how likely is it that they are receiving religious education in public schools?

So where is the "forced feeding" occurring exactly?

And which segment of the adult population is doing it? Recall that the UK has a secular majority. Most don't believe in G-d. So are you saying there is some conspiracy run by a minority that is prevailing on society as a whole via a surreptitious indoctrination that's happening outside the purview of normal intitutional processes?

The UK is not like the US. Religious education in school is mandatory up till 16 years of age. The schools are denomenational. Catholics go to Catholic schools and everybody else goes to so called mixed schools. Though there are an increasing number of Muslim schools too. I think all the Jewish schools are private.

But please be patient, I will address all your questions in due course.

tao
 
The trend we should be concerned about is the widespread secularization of all world cultures by means of a pervasive post-industrial ambience of barren utilitarianism, self-interest, and consumerism. For one thing, the disappearance of traditional religious ideology has the potential to undermine the social and moral code that once had a religious basis. The trend could mean big blows to human ecology in terms of losing a sense of unity, community, and continuity that are part of the meaning of life.

Yeah, what he said.

Maybe religion and its institutions is all a pile of pants but the essentailly secular UK that I live in appears to me to be Sodom and Gomorrah.:(

s.
 
Tao, what percent of children in the UK receive ANY religious upbringing at all?

Since the UK probably observes separation of church and state, how likely is it that they are receiving religious education in public schools?

So where is the "forced feeding" occurring exactly?
Namaste Netti. One of the main complaints the colonists had was the Church of England. Everyone within some radius/district whatever was required to attend services at least once a month. So those that weren't in town would make that the day to come into town, get some salt, sugar, nails, you know shopping, take care of whatever legal business and take the family (pawns) to church to meet the obligation to the King and his knights and bishops.

So we rebels included in our declaration the freedom of religion (no separation of church and state) as one of our G!d given inalienable rights. So we were force fed from the beginning over here in the colonies and eventually rejected the notion of requiring a religion, but we did not reject the notion of G!d. Freedom OF religion as it were, what Tao is requesting is freedom FROM religion I believe.
 
You write: "as the cuisine of a country is inherited by successive generations so are its beliefs." The above example raises questions about the long-term stability of the ideology and also about the immediacy of the effects of a traditional mindset on behavior.
Nothing remains static in its entirety. What I have been talking about are principles that have remained essentially the same, not structures.

One would expect widespread acceptance for a common set of beliefs and values that have legitimacy simply by virtue of their normativeness. The transfer of the values and beliefs would be largely self-perpetuating as long as the cultural means of transmission are operative. In this connection, I would agree with you that someone is less likely to become religious in an nonreligious culture. It is from this perspective that I view some interesting research findings. In particular, the available data show very clearly that the UK has a secular majority. That is, the vast majority -- 60% -- do not believe in G-d. As one might surmise given the aforementioned finding, two thirds (="66% or 32 million") people in the UK have no religious affiliation or church membership (2006 data).
I was going to give you a big detailed analysis of religion in the UK since the reformation but I do not have either time nor inclination to go there. I do not dispute the figures you give but to think that the disintegration of the old power holders over here has not been replaced is wrong. The new temples are edge of town malls, their bibles are mail order catalogues and their sacrament is the credit card.


Other findings for your interest: "In 2000, 60 per cent of the population claimed to belong to a specific religion with 55 per cent being Christian. However, half of all adults aged 18 and over who belonged to a religion have never attended a religious service." Further, 59% of those surveyed report that they "practically never" attend church!
Pray tell, Tao, how can there be a process of cultural reinforcement for ideology and behavior when people do not avail themselves of opportunities to learn these things from church services?
These figures represent a statistical analysis that that does not take all other factors into account. Especially those of nationalism and ingrained and deliberately cultured apathy. The UK is nothing like the US. Here to use the word God so often as you do in the US is unheard of and would get you some very funny looks if you were to use it. For this reason you would get a negative result in any poll but even if the polls are fairly representative, which I think they are, the authority of religious teaching still holds much power. All people are taught the basic messages in school whether their parents wish it or not. The undercurrent of nationalism also has to be factored. "God save the Queen". The association of power with divine power lives on.


A truly effective mechanism of indoctrination and enforcement would be largely self-perpetuating, Clearly, no such mechanism is effective in the UK. Have a look:
In the twenty years between 1980 and 2000 the Church of England suffered a 27 per cent decline in church membership. The Roman Catholic Church suffered a similar decline in the same period in mass attendance. Between 1979 and 2005, half of all Christians stopped going to church on a Sunday. Religion in Britain has suffered an immense decline since the 1950s, and all indicators show a continued secularization of British society in line with other European countries such as France.
If the social programming was actually effective, one would expect a "well developed acceptance" for normative religious beliefs and values. Based on the foregoing findings, the empirical support for it is lacking, at least in the UK and other European countries. I would go so far as to say that the Religious Factor actually is quite weak in Western society in general.
Here we get into quite complicated territory. The post war decline in church attendance in Europe is not matched by that in the US and is especially pronounced in the UK. In Europe in the post war era we had an explosion of Socialism that fought for the rights of the common man, and won many battles. Now over the pond there you would call Socialism Communism and equate it with the Stalinist USSR. But its effect over here in the UK was to make the common man question authority and fight, politically, for his freedom against the traditional Conservative Party that represented the age old landowners, Industrialists and the Clergy. It is true as of yet no new religion has yet supplanted the old but people have been far too busy being obedient consumers to even care about who holds the reigns of power. But here comes one of the reasons I post all this with such apparent personal concern. Religion in politics is resurgent. We recently had Blair openly convert to Catholicism in his quest to become European president, (most of Europe is Catholic). Brown, the son of a Presbyterian Minister has been pushing for more religious instruction. The BBC has dramatically increased its religious programming including the use of celebrity and nationalistic appeal. There is a growth in American style evangelic type churches that are marketed at the young as social clubs where you can meet a 'nice' boyfriend or girlfriend. The spiritualist church that appeals directly to women is huge and growing all the time. So to think these statistics represent the facts is sadly not true. I wish they were.

The picture you have pained about the role of ideology does not seem to have the best fit to reality. Clearly, traditional religion has little appeal and probably exerts little influence on public and private ritual behavior and social behavior in general. The data indicate massive declines in church memberships. I don't see how a religious community of any size is possible under these circumstances. This is an issue because a community of believers is the "sales force" for the ideology.
Historically maybe. These days people do not have to go to church to be monitored and indoctrinated. It is done with loyalty cards, credit card receipts and multi-media.


Recent history has been marked by a large-scale erosion of institutionalized religion. But even now church memberships continue to decline. Traditional religion is on its way out and may soon be become extinct on its own. I would therefore say that the cultural means of indoctrination or "social programming" (cyberpi's term) has been a dismal failure.
Failure!! It has been successful for untold generations!! True that today the average faithful does not have to leave their armchair to buy the latest ministry CD but the control is still there.


I think you have overestimated the importance of these processes with respect to their ability to keep the masses in a state of religious delusion. You might argue that the "New Age" drift toward the occult indicates the development of a new religion. My comeback would be that people dabbling in these things may not qualify as "Religion."
. A book like the Celestine Prophecy or an English translation of the Tao te ching still sells millions of copies. It may not have a formalised structure of yet but "New Age" is fast becoming as normal as any of the traditional ones. These things do not happen overnight, you see them evolve and fall by reading decades or even centuries of history. So I think you are being a little premature.


My position is diametrically opposite yours. The trend we should be concerned about is the widespread secularization of all world cultures by means of a pervasive post-industrial ambience of barren utilitarianism, self-interest, and consumerism. For one thing, the disappearance of traditional religious ideology has the potential to undermine the social and moral code that once had a religious basis. The trend could mean big blows to human ecology in terms of losing a sense of unity, community, and continuity that are part of the meaning of life.
No the world is not becoming more secular. It is becoming more polarised with a resurgence in extreme doctrines. These things you fear we are losing were (a) not religious but normal social needs of mankind, and (b) they are already lost and supplanted with a tailor-fitted consumerist paradigm of your choice. You want "new age"? Well buy your dream catcher lovingly hand crafted by a genuine Cherokee mystic here for only $9.99 (made in China). Or the Zen way to happiness and enlightenment by Ivor U Cash for only $19.99 + p&p. This "New Age" movement is as gullible as they come and there are plenty cashing in on it.


tao
 
That is a good way to put it. Something that has cropped up on this thread and is a common response is that I am somehow 'missing' something, that I am deficient or incapable. Its like people saying how dare you come to the teddy bears picnic without a teddy. Or you aint a black man so you cant say the word *****. Well you do not have do be a theist to understand exactly what God is in the human psyche. The example you give there Chris is superb because you could choose to label yourself anyone of them and everybody here would give you respect. You have virtually unlimited scope to adopt or even invent a paradigm and people will be, or will at least act, credulous. Yet present all paradigms as stemming from the same source, the human mind, and qualify it with the simplest examples of why this fact is indeed fact and you get nothing but derision, irrelevant point picking and accusations that it is you with the closed mind. This reads as though I am angry. I am not. It might read as though I feel I am not respected here. I do not feel that either. But I do feel the burden of 'proof' that is demanded of me far surpasses that which the theist feels adequate to support their beliefs. I never expected the almost rhetorical question at the head of this thread to run like this. I have put forward my case as far as I care to go with it. I think I will retire now to the politics threads where I am more naturally at home.


;);););););););););););););)'s for everybody


tao

I just wanted to try to put a human face on the experience of transcending religion and the need to believe. I know what people think: "poor Chris, it must be hard to be in such a dark and hopeless space. He doesn't believe in anything anymore. How utterly tragic." But it's not like that. The birds still bird, the bees still be, everything is still marvelous, nature is fabulous, and life is a joy. I'm still on the "spiritual" path. But pushing on into the new frontier requires that I honor a pact of intellectual honesty that I made with myself long ago. I didn't decide to just chuck everything and quit. I haven't quit anything. I'm on the path I'm supposed to be on. I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. I don't know if working yourself through and beyond the need for religion is a natural phase in everyone's path, but it is in mine.

Chris
 
Well Chris, there are those who have mapped out that kind of progression. The trouble is, people take offense if they perceive that progression in terms of "better than" or "less than".
I mean, lets face it, enlightenment could be just this, right now with everything just as it is. Wouldn't it be a real kicker if it turned out that there was no path, nothing to live or die for, just this. As it is.
If that were true then you among all of us is already there because you choose to be in touch with being and seek no filters, no consolation or certainty.

I mean, dude, you're the shiznit!
 
I always expect that to crop up sooner or later in a discussion like this. It is not the fault of the average atheist that history threw up and gave power to such monsters. Supplanting a religious ideology with a radical political one is not what I am saying here at all. If what I am saying was carried through to conclusion it would be as difficult for dictatorships of politics to arise as religions.

tao
Not really. It would just be a religion where the State becomes god. (Sounds like Stalin and Mao, huh?)

It looks like radicals come in different flavors, not just religious, and not just political.
 
Tao, what percent of children in the UK receive ANY religious upbringing at all?

Since the UK probably observes separation of church and state, how likely is it that they are receiving religious education in public schools?

So where is the "forced feeding" occurring exactly?

And which segment of the adult population is doing it? Recall that the UK has a secular majority. Most don't believe in G-d. So are you saying there is some conspiracy run by a minority that is prevailing on society as a whole via a surreptitious indoctrination that's happening outside the purview of normal intitutional processes?

The UK is not like the US. Religious education in school is mandatory up till 16 years of age. The schools are denomenational. Catholics go to Catholic schools and everybody else goes to so called mixed schools. Though there are an increasing number of Muslim schools too. I think all the Jewish schools are private.

But please be patient, I will address all your questions in due course.

tao

Tao and I discussed how forced religious education will naturally lead to a decrease in religion here.
 
I got a lump of coal one year. Still love Santa. Won't be long my hair will be white enough I won't have to wear the wig..


I cant wait til my hair grows white..... That will be a happy day. I'll allow it to grow free and long :D

As a kid I always wanted to look like one of my fantasy heroes Sephiroth lol.

Sephiroth.jpg
 
Purely for the sake of balance, I think it's fair to observe that it seems Tao will not rest until every sign of faith, every doctrine and dogma (except his own, of course) is eradicated.

As I have said before, I 'wandered off' in my youth, and by the time I found my Catholicism anew, I had a partner and three children being educated in the state system. Neither she nor they are baptised, and neither she nor they have ever had to defend themselves against my Catholicism. My partner is areligious and against religious education. Any attempt to educate my children would have been perceived as indoctrination and would have been fiercely resisted. This is not up for discussion, but purely as background.

+++

Religious education in the UK which is, as observed, effectively a secular state, is minimal. Gone are the hymns and prayers of the (state) schools of my youth, and RI (Religious Instruction — ie the instruction of being in a religion) became RE (Religious Education — information about various religions) and now is little more than a teenage look at morality and ethics.

Religious instruction, with regard to the central tenets of Christianity, or indeed any religion, is non-existent. In a secular educational system, it's all myth, superstition, an interesting cultural history.

Today its all about societal issues — broadly social morality and ethics. The religious underpinnings of such systems is ignored.

Faith Schools have always existed — Catholic schools since the nineteenth century when the law allowed the practice of Catholicism in the UK once again and Jewish schools ... but UK society in general has grown increasingly more hostile to the idea of faith schools, Tao is among the majority voice there. Attempts have been made to ban them, and there is a strong lobby to do so, but the state finds itself looking embarrassingly authoritarian if it does so, especially as faith schools perform well in the general statistical analysis of education. Its state schools which fail.

Interestingly, Catholic schools are always heavily over-subscribed, and non-religious people will do everything possible, move house, attend mass, to get their kids into a catholic school. Here the 'traditional values' of basic good manners are observed, backed with a disciplinary system that is as tough as the law allows, and if the child continues to misbehave then the parents are called in.

I find Tao's vision, at times, bordering on the hysterical. To say religion holds any sway in the UK is a nonsense, and only last year the BBC was faced with an embarrassing leak of an internal memo which admitted an anti-Christian bias ... BBC religious programming for the most part is a discreet questioning and undermining of the traditional Christian image.

As I have been observing, the representation of the religion on TV has never been other than that of murderous or adulterous priests, and monks and nuns are always maniacs — I have never seen the even-handed characterisation of the religious life. My family delight in shouting "It's him!" as soon as a dog-collar appears in a TV detective show, and in the recent list, they have been right.

If every gay character was presented as a paedophile in the media, there would be an outcry of unfair treatment.

Catholics, who are presented as fanatics, obsessives, peadophiles, murderers, etc ... we're just over-reacting.

The European Commission, fighting for a Constitution, has sought to eradicate every mention of Christianity from the history of Europe and its cultural and social emergence and development, as if it never happened.

+++

Secularism is, of course, the new fundamentalism — it allows and will stand for nothing but it's own opinion, and Tao is its heroic spokesperson.

Thomas
 
Thank you for your kind words Thomas :)




Each of us lives in our own little perception bubble. And it seems they all claim bias in the BBC. My complaint was not founded on the portraits of fictional drama, which I do not watch, but on factual programming that completely ignores the great harm religions have brought upon people. The association and support of the catholic Church for the Nazi's is a prime example. As I recently highlighted on another thread the Catholic sponsorship and running of Nazi concentration camps in Croatia with the full knowledge and support of the then pope has never been addressed on any religious program. Half a million people exterminated by the Catholic Church so recently and it is never mentioned because there is a collusion of silence. Instead we get some little nun running around the centres of religious art telling us how they represent all the beautiful and divine aspects of theological thinking. So do not tell me there is bias. Religion gets special treatment. It is shown only in the best possible light. That fiction so often portrays the clergy to be devious, underhand and murderous is probably more accurate than the factual programming and such social stereotyping got there for good reason.

As for RE in schools, all schools are required by law to provide a daily act of collective worship, of which over the course of the academic year at least 51% must be Christian in basis. The curriculum is required to reflect the predominant place of Christianity in religious life and hence Christianity form the majority of the content of the subject.
I have not as yet followed the thread SG links to above but I presume that it relates to a thread I started some time ago which was inspired by the difficulties and harsh treatment my son was receiving from his RE teacher. She was a dour old fundamentalist Presbyterian who has, ( hallelujah!! ), since been forcibly retired. There is an increasingly vociferous campaign by liberal thinkers and academics to remove RE from the classroom altogether and incorporate it into social studies and history. I would support such a move. But there is a more worrying trend in the corridors of power going right to the top that wants to go the other way and increase religious study. Only time will tell who wins this battle.

I make no apologies for championing the dissolution of religion in society in the meagre way I do so here. Most of the threads here that discuss religion deal with the minutiae of contextual interpretations from ancient texts. How often do I see a thread condemning and seeking out ways to prevent the further occurrence the great deprivations the religions have forced upon mankind? Amongst the religious there is virtually no debate about the rot within and by this omission atheists like me are continually obliged to remind you. In other words, if theists were honest people like me would not have to bother. This lack of self-scrutiny and effort to right the wrongs history has painted large in the blood of the innocent is not a small detail. It is an integral part of the religious delusion. People like me are left with no choice. By ignoring the wrongs you allow them to perpetuate and this is what they are doing across the world today. The modern Holy War is real and 100s of people die every day in the name of God. This is the reality. To me religion is not worth the price.

tao
 
Tao and I discussed how forced religious education will naturally lead to a decrease in religion here.


Your last words from that thread:
Doesn't an attempt to produce a compulsory, one-size-fits-all religious education program fit the description of enforced medicrity? IMHO, it's a surefire way to kill any desire for religion. JMHO.
Not often I'd argue for mediocrity.... but here I am embracing it wholesale. :D
 
Thomas,

Thank you for the honesty of your post.

My child is now grown, with children of her own who were both home educated through the early formative years until they themselves desired to enter into a local village school. It is a wonderful place with a wholesome nature, and there is a church attached where they assembly. It is a strange thing because it does not press religious education but is encompassed as naturally as the fabric of a village society where there is a respect and order in life.
And I who you know to be far from orthodox respect this also. I teach and listen to them in my own way, aware of the fragility of human nature I am grateful for simplicity and love to flow.

You and I have begged to differ much in the past and yet you might be surprized how I understand the underlying principles of your life and faith.

peace - c -
 
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