Jesus: What happens now?

[17th Angel]

alex, LOL!

alright, man. so answer me this. when something good happens to you, you don't question why it happened?

I think we tend to only question when bad things happen to us... lol.

But for the exercise let's say I say yes (come on holmes this may help and teach peeps)

 

[LeoSalinas22]

bishadi

What's the source?

God. is there another source, bro?

And that 'creation' word: perhaps developing an alergy; it causes a twitch.

what, then, would you call what God has made on a universal level?

Almost like 'gonapsyphilherpelaids' ..... the words created to describe a really strange STD.

i'm not even gonna google to see what this means because your intentions were not to heal the broken hearted.

i really hope that when a child asks you a question using "lesser" words you don't come up with witty remark such as this. now i know you are arrogant. i thought you were humble.

 

[LeoSalinas22]

alex

I think we tend to only question when bad things happen to us... lol.

thats a generalization and you know it. not everybody is like this.

But for the exercise let's say I say yes (come on holmes this may help and teach peeps)

i am going to use an example. the life you live right now. it is priviladged say compared to someone who is suffering from lack of food or water in a third world country. don't you question that? don't you wonder why it is that you are here and they are there? that is by what i mean if you question. i sure as heck question this all the time. i drive myself nuts sometimes about this. it just isn't fair from where i stand.

 

[17th Angel]

alex
thats a generalization and you know it. not everybody is like this.

i am going to use an example. the life you live right now. it is priviladged say compared to someone who is suffering from lack of food or water in a third world country. don't you question that? don't you wonder why it is that you are here and they are there? that is by what i mean if you question. i sure as heck question this all the time. i drive myself nuts sometimes about this. it just isn't fair from where i stand.

Ah now that is a different kettle of haddocks... Yes, oh yes I question the suffering of others every second of my existance, that is what has led me to do something I am about to do, and it may seem crazy to many but I have been in a depressed state recently haven't mentioned it to many but I have, and I have found something that will make me genuinely happy and higher than any drug can ever get me...

Instead of questioning I am going to act.

And today on my way home I saw many signs of this I thought I had it real bad, but I passed a man in a wheel chair, two animals dead by the side of roads and a lady who had a disfugred left arm and hand.... That is indeed something to be thankful for that I am not in their situation, but to stop there... Isn;t enough, I have to help these people...

I see where you are coming from now brah, and you give worship for being in a better situation is what you're saying? Understood.

 

[Bishadi]

bishadi
God. is there another source, bro?

what, then, would you call what God has made on a universal level?

That is a touchy subject but let's try:

the big word was to share a 'creation'. Mankind within God, creates. (all words)

That term creation is misused in the idea of 'God' sitting on a thrown in some heaven and 'created' a universe that we live in.

Look up the term panentheism. The point is God is not without us, as we are not without him; we are One. That is something of an area that often confuses.

Such that as we experience, God does. as we define, God defines. As a life is born; another of God's children is born. The sentience of experiencing life in time; is that consciousness of God; the creator.

There is no isolated being on a thrown turning screws.

now i know you are arrogant. i thought you were humble.

not one to care much for being accepted. Helps with autonomy.

As often many are a little touchier than another, but the real Ones see what is.

From day one; to fight for the truth has been the mountain to climb. So a little dirt will be present.

In the eyes of balance; if a man has spent a huge amount of time, energy and care simply to give and of no needs of the self; then imagine what bad he is also capable of.

That scale will always have 2 sides; the weight and counter weight.

 

[LeoSalinas22]

alex:

Instead of questioning I am going to act.

if you don't mind, would you tell me how you are going to act?

And today on my way home I saw many signs of this I thought I had it real bad, but I passed a man in a wheel chair, two animals dead by the side of roads and a lady who had a disfugred left arm and hand.... That is indeed something to be thankful for that I am not in their situation, but to stop there... Isn;t enough, I have to help these people...

the people you saw, i would imagine that they are disappointed at this life. their hearts are broken. my eyes water when i see this at times. not because of their circumstances, but because i am utterly weak and powerless to do anything to help them. i can talk to them, sure, but i am just a human being like they are. or maybe i am not supposed to interfere. i don't know. i get confused at situations like that. hard to tell what i am supposed to do without seeming overrighteous. its frustrating at times.

I see where you are coming from now brah, and you give worship for being in a better situation is what you're saying?

so i worship God because it is the only outlet i have. if it goes inwards, then i feel like i am worshipping the self, like its my hand that saves me. bullsh**. my hand does nothing. i am just a leaf in the wind.

 

[17th Angel]

alex:
if you don't mind, would you tell me how you are going to act?

the people you saw, i would imagine that they are disappointed at this life. their hearts are broken. my eyes water when i see this at times. not because of their circumstances, but because i am utterly weak and powerless to do anything to help them. i can talk to them, sure, but i am just a human being like they are. or maybe i am not supposed to interfere. i don't know. i get confused at situations like that. hard to tell what i am supposed to do without seeming overrighteous. its frustrating at times.

so i worship God because it is the only outlet i have. if it goes inwards, then i feel like i am worshipping the self, like its my hand that saves me. bullsh**. my hand does nothing. i am just a leaf in the wind.

Now it isn't a christian way in a matter of speaking... I am enlisting to the Voulnteer ministers... (like a Scientology peace corp.)

I feel as sometimes all we need to do is smile and talk to them, help can come in many forms brudda. I feel as if some of us think we need some sort of miracle to help people, and we are far too small to do such an act, but brother miracles are all shapes and sizes a simple smile can do it sometimes... a simple timing of being in the right place at the right time can be the miracle, I do believe things happen for a reason I do beliee there is a Creator and a bigger picture, and you call it god that is good, you pray to your god for the ability to help others, you think he will magic this power onto you? Or perhaps he will put you in a situation where you have the chance to make the change? Pray for strength and faith and courage name a trait a characteritic any do you believe if you pray for it he will bestow it upon you? Or give you the chance the opportunity to learn it and excell within it?

I have also been reading.. well I tell a lie I am too lazy to read, I have been listening to an audio book called the way to happiness... and it is full of common sense really, but most people seem to forget these simple ways... I am going to post them in EVERY door in my city... It is an oath I made to myself and I feel lighter and higher, and I feel like I have purpose... And purpose is gooooood.

It is our works that change the world, your hands can be the will of your god... Think of yourself more of the acorn of the tree.... You are falling in the wind yes, but you will land and grow and be strong and from you more acorns shall come and they will grow and be strong and fruitful you are not a leaf you are a seed....

You, are a magnificant being, if you have a belife in a Creator (god) then he loves you, he made you, he made us all, so use what has been given to you to help others..... For that is surley righteous, and that surley is the will of your god, and that surley shall be favoured. Seriously Leo, you are not as helpless, weak, powerless as you may believe you are(you're a freaking design from a master designer....), when you realise your truth and purpose... (which differs man to man to man...) you can begin to flourish. your belife of negative and sadness will turn and you will believe in the positive... Oh don;t ask me what that is, only you know, and only you can find it.

I say sure feel for others, cry if you must, I do occasionally, but realise you can help them.

 

[path_of_one]

hello path, thanks for replying... we are really off the topic, but i don't care, we are talking about God. that's what counts.

Sorry. But I agree. These topics, like any conversation, tend to go into tangents... but talking about the same overall subject.

ok. this is where we differ greatly. i take it you don't stare at the starry heavens and wonder where God is at. i mean, really at. His throne and His heavenly host. the earth is His footstool if you haven't read that already. He isn't dwelling with us yet.

No, I don't really wonder where God is at. I take it you have a more literalist reading of scripture. I start from my spiritual experience, as that started before I could read, and then I try to understand scripture in two ways- with reference to my own spiritual experience and with reference to the original language, culture, time period, etc. in which it was written. That said, I've found a lot of what is assumed literal in the Bible doesn't mesh well with either my experience of God or my study of context.

However, I don't think it really matters. What matters is the sincere seeking, in my opinion. I don't think God cares if I get the "right" answer. I don't even think there is a right answer, at least not one that humans can understand. I think God cares about my intent- if my heart longs after Him/Her/It. If I love God and neighbor with all my heart and soul, as deeply as I love myself.

it is only His Spirit that is in His creation and not Him, if that makes sense. i don't believe in worshipping His Spirit, because even that is something that comes from Him.

I guess I don't see God in this way. I see God emanating forth manifestations, all of which have in them Spirit. God remains undiminished, but that does not make the Spirit any less God. At least, that's how I think about it. Of course, I don't really think my ideas (or anyone's at any time) are accurate reflections of what God is really like. I think we can only guess. What I think we can definitively have is a relationship with God, a personal experience of God. I can never really know what any being on earth is like- even those I am incredibly close to, like my husband- remain somewhat of a mystery. How much more so does God? But yet, I am in love with my husband, we share a life, a home, a constant and daily interaction. And so too with God.

too many times have i read in the book that He is like a Husband asking for His unfaithful wife to come back to Him.

I don't buy that God is jealous. I don't mind saying outright that it is not something I agree with. I do not believe scriptural text of any sort is infallible; I think it chronicles a people's experience of God and describes it the best they can at the time (and that is being relatively generous from a scholarly point of view, since in reality it also appears that religions have long been used for some not-so-great political and selfish ends).

The Divine I have, on many occasions, experienced has never felt remotely human. Manifestations like Jesus have, and show me a bridge between human and divine. But the occasions where I have felt to be directly in the presence of God Itself, and completely out of my own body, were strange experiences indeed. I don't think God feels negative emotions like jealousy. Our own feelings of things like jealousy are based in fear- fear of losing that which is precious to us. I don't think God fears anything, because I think God is all-powerful. So it just makes no sense to me, either from a spiritual or logical line of thinking.

i can't risk worshipping something He didn't mean for it to be worshipped. that is why we have Him. once again, i can see your point, but i can't risk angering Him again.

Jealousy, anger, fear... Doesn't that make God sound like a petty tyrant? I don't mean that in a debating way, I'm just saying to me, this always makes God seem too human, too vulnerable.

How did God feel about most of the people in human history, who were in shamanic Pagan religions, long before monotheism began? Most of human history, we were hunter-gatherers with animistic systems of belief (everything alive with spirits). So it just doesn't make sense to me why God would be angry about it. It is what it is.

On a personal level, I just don't get it either. I've never felt God was angry with me for seeking after God. When I thank the Earth, I don't stop receiving comfort or peace or joy from God. God has never abandoned me, and have faith that S/He never will. Christ has never abandoned me, and I have faith He will ever be at my side. I have felt God come to me when I doubt most, when I reach most into other ways of thinking. I know that God knows I am sincere, and that is what is asked of me.

i am glad you are humble in this manner.

Any other way of thinking makes no sense to me, to be honest.

my wife, my kids, the trees, food, my job, everything has been given to me. not to abuse it, but has been given into my hands to nurture and tend to. it is there, not to ask permission, but to enjoy, because it is ours.

Yes, we differ greatly in this regard. I think nothing has been given to me. I think it is all temporary, and I am grateful for all that life brings, as it is all a way for me to grow spiritually and to express love, that is to say, to learn more of how I can express God through me. I do believe I am to nurture and heal every being, including myself, but I see this as different from everything being mine. I see everything, including myself, as God's alone. Secondly, as everything as belonging to itself, with its own purpose and rights. So I am thankful to both God and to each individual being for their presence and their gift. And I am respectful to both. I appreciate having others ask my permission to take things from me, even those closest to me. It makes me feel loved and appreciated when my husband asks me for something, rather than taking or demanding it. By extension, I try to give this to all beings and to be aware of each of their gifts and (sometimes) sacrifices to aid my life.

i guess you can say that God has really really spoiled man. He really has given all of us, even the wicked, everything that is in our hearts.

I think God spoils no one, but gives to all beings freely. Humans exist to fill a certain purpose in service to each other and to other beings- to the earth itself, and other beings likewise. We each have our purpose, but we all have purposes. Then, it is up to us how we use this gift- to grow in love, which is ultimately what benefits ourselves as well as others and God- or to grow in selfishness and pride, which serves no one, including ourselves (in the long run).

as i mentioned earlier, He is like a Husband to us and we are the nagging wife, and what does the Husband do eventually when the wife nags Him, He gives and gives freely, but some of us have abused that, and that is when God will take back at times, until we learn to glorify and give praise to Him.

Well, my husband doesn't respond to nagging that way, thank God. How would I ever learn to be a better wife???

As for God, I don't think that God operates that way. Look at some of the saints and martyrs. Intensely close to God, they gave everything, even their lives, for their love of Him/Her. Look at Mother Theresa, who lived in poverty with the poorest of the poor. I look at my own mother, who was and is incredibly loving and deeply committed to God, and yet we lived in poverty for years. God didn't do this to us. People create poverty. Fortunately, God's grace and love find people in all circumstances. But to blame bad things happening on God taking stuff away- I think this is placing the blame in the wrong location. Bad things happen for two reasons: 1) natural causes, and these aren't bad except by our own misperception and 2) people-induced causes, and these we could change but haven't yet.

what i am trying to say is that, everything on this earth, has its purpose.

Indeed. But how can we know another being's purpose? And what is the value of defining it? I guess I'm kind of the "keep it simple school"- I just focus on my purpose, and I know that to be loving others, healing others, and being joyful in my life. I believe that by loving all beings and finding joy in life, I am helping others fulfill their purposes, whatever they may be.

God's creation is amazing isn't it? i look at myself and i just shouldn't exist. but i do for some reason. i can move, talk, love, laugh, curse, be sad, hate. i can do all these things and its amazing.

Yes- this is about how I feel about it. I look at myself each day and think "Wow! I'm alive and this is certainly amazing!" The rest is like a huge bonus. Sometimes it is hard to remember that feeling when I get caught up in what we're told to expect out of life, but as Eckhart Tolle said recently, and I do love this particular quote, maybe we should rather think "What can I do for life?"

i look at the earth and see very much how it represents a woman with a baby.

That is how I see her. I see the Earth- Gaia, the spirit of the Earth- as a mother. Well, there is more to it than that, but I won't go *that* off topic.

trees as i mentioned on another thread, are even stranger still. on windy days they seem like they are praising God constantly. and when no wind is around, they are eerily silent.

Oh, trees. I could go on and on, but I won't. Too off-topic again. But trees, of all things, really speak of God to me, and life and death, and acceptance, and silence, and power. Trees are never really silent for me, but when in the wind... There is nothing better on earth to me than the feeling of strong wind in a forest. Unless there is also rain and thunder...

i can go on and on about God Himself, i just don't have anyone to go on and on about with Him. we truly are scattered to the four corners of the earth. thanks for reading a post from a deranged individual and God be with you.

Oh, me too, Leo. That's why we're here on CR- us odd people who like to go on and on about God! I hardly think you're deranged; what is considered "normal" by US standards is caring more about sports and what celebrities wear than about love and forgiveness and... God. I say, I'm happy to be an odd one. LOL

Blessings to you,
Kim/Path

 

[mee]

Jesus.. what happens now ?

just keep on doing what i commanded you to do matthew 28;19-20


ok


mee likes to listen to Jesus , its the only way to salvation




This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. JOHN 17;3

 

[Bishadi]

Jesus.. what happens now ?

just keep on doing what i commanded you to do matthew 28;19-20


ok


mee likes to listen to Jesus , its the only way to salvation

OK, then listen

"18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'

Did you read or comprehend or are you going to listen to John?

This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. JOHN 17;3

The thread is about how preaching and teachers of false doctrine suggest that;

Jesus died for our sins! but he didn't stay dead, What happens Now?

 

[17th Angel]

Sorry, wait a moment, Bishadi... Aren't you a Christian?

Just with the "Don't listen to John." comment, would lead me to think there could be conflicting answers to question? (harmony?)

 

[mee]

Jesus died for our sins! but he didn't stay dead, What happens Now?

Jesus is a reigning king in Gods heavenly kingdom Daniel 7;13-14 Daniel 2;44


and he is directing a great global preaching work matthew 24;14

and those who respond to that kingdom GOODNEWS are having great blessing right now, and also they will have even better blessings in the future . thats because they will get through the GREAT TRIBULATION

REVELATION 7;14

YES ITS ALL HAPPENING IN THE TIME OF THE END would you like to join the great crowd who are waving their symbolic palm branches to welcome Gods reigning king ?ITS THE ONLY WAY TO SALVATION



And its goodnews

 

[Bishadi]

Sorry, wait a moment, Bishadi... Aren't you a Christian?

No religion; truth is absolute!

Just with the "Don't listen to John." comment, would lead me to think there could be conflicting answers to question? (harmony?)

Not my conflict. The Mee me is like many of faith; less than equal with integrity.

Each are capable but often the complacent retain little responsibility for what they represent.

But I learn many many things even in this 'car wreck'

 

[Bishadi]

Jesus is a reigning king in Gods heavenly kingdom Daniel 7;13-14 Daniel 2;44

another fib; JC is no where in all of the book of Daniel.

and those who respond to that kingdom GOODNEWS are having great blessing right now, and also they will have even better blessings in the future . thats because they will get through the GREAT TRIBULATION

REVELATION 7;14

Has the tribulation occurred?

Or better still is the JC matt is writting about the same JC you think is in Daniel, revelations and returned in the 1914 JW witnessing program but yet the globe has seen no Peace?

Like the little kid said: If Jesus died for our sins; What happens now?

He didn't stay dead.

 

[LeoSalinas22]

alex,

Now it isn't a christian way in a matter of speaking... I am enlisting to the Voulnteer ministers... (like a Scientology peace corp.)

I feel as sometimes all we need to do is smile and talk to them, help can come in many forms brudda. I feel as if some of us think we need some sort of miracle to help people, and we are far too small to do such an act, but brother miracles are all shapes and sizes a simple smile can do it sometimes... a simple timing of being in the right place at the right time can be the miracle, I do believe things happen for a reason I do beliee there is a Creator and a bigger picture, and you call it god that is good, you pray to your god for the ability to help others, you think he will magic this power onto you? Or perhaps he will put you in a situation where you have the chance to make the change? Pray for strength and faith and courage name a trait a characteritic any do you believe if you pray for it he will bestow it upon you? Or give you the chance the opportunity to learn it and excell within it?

you know i have always wanted to do some volunteer work. like peace corp. or something like that. but my family comes into the picture. i don't know what is more righteous, taking care of my family or strangers. only time will tell which is so.

i have been in situations where it is way too impossible to just think of as a coincidence. situations where you were at the right time at the right place. things that happen where, to me, i was needed and i was there to prevent something. it is these moments that make me feel like i matter. like there is a difference being made. but it is such a slow process and i tend to lose patience too quickly.

as for this portion...

It is our works that change the world, your hands can be the will of your god... Think of yourself more of the acorn of the tree.... You are falling in the wind yes, but you will land and grow and be strong and from you more acorns shall come and they will grow and be strong and fruitful you are not a leaf you are a seed....

You, are a magnificant being, if you have a belife in a Creator (god) then he loves you, he made you, he made us all, so use what has been given to you to help others..... For that is surley righteous, and that surley is the will of your god, and that surley shall be favoured. Seriously Leo, you are not as helpless, weak, powerless as you may believe you are(you're a freaking design from a master designer....), when you realise your truth and purpose... (which differs man to man to man...) you can begin to flourish. your belife of negative and sadness will turn and you will believe in the positive... Oh don;t ask me what that is, only you know, and only you can find it.

I say sure feel for others, cry if you must, I do occasionally, but realise you can help them.

thank you very much for you words, bro. your intentions will be remembered. believe it or not, i actually see you as a friend ever since we started picking on mee back when i barely started posting here. so i will remember you. hope you know that. thanks and God bless you.

 

[17th Angel]

alex,


you know i have always wanted to do some volunteer work. like peace corp. or something like that. but my family comes into the picture. i don't know what is more righteous, taking care of my family or strangers. only time will tell which is so.

Both. Sometimes to do good, or to love we sacrafice... And I feel it works out in the end, I know I will have some hard times ahead of me, but When I was watching how they have changed peoples lives... That is a feeling I want, and so I can look back on my life, and say yeah I did it.

i have been in situations where it is way too impossible to just think of as a coincidence. situations where you were at the right time at the right place. things that happen where, to me, i was needed and i was there to prevent something. it is these moments that make me feel like i matter. like there is a difference being made. but it is such a slow process and i tend to lose patience too quickly.

I do not believie in conicidence See you matter, of course ya do! You ain;t no dying leaf in the wind! You gonna land and grow and from you will shoot all these other acorns who are going to grow!

thank you very much for you words, bro. your intentions will be remembered. believe it or not, i actually see you as a friend ever since we started picking on mee back when i barely started posting here. so i will remember you. hope you know that. thanks and God bless you.

Don't thank me, I was just helping you realise And Yeah I remeber the days haha, (apologised to mee since then lol and have helped to try and boost him and raise him up) I am glad you consider me a friend because I consider you a brother, I will remeber you also...

 

[LeoSalinas22]

path of one:

No, I don't really wonder where God is at. I take it you have a more literalist reading of scripture.

i will be truthful, i used to see scripture as very literal, until i started to read that the bible was corrupted throughout history. but i can't help but notice that the majority of the bible hasn't been tampered with. some of the verses still speak to me and move me. i guess what i meant to ask was, wouldn't it be better to be one with the earth and the heavens as well? i mean, there are mysteries here on the earth itself, imagine the mysteries in heaven. outer space, the final frontier. that is what i meant by if you stare at the stars at night. i am sure you have seen pictures of supernovas, planets, other heavently bodies, and they are just so beautiful. words can't describe the colors in outer space. i hope it is God's will to reveal all the mysteries in heaven. i want to be that close to Him so that He can teach me everything He knows about His creation. hope you understand what i mean. i would hope that people just don't focus on what is here on earth because there is just so much more in outer space.

I guess I don't see God in this way. I see God emanating forth manifestations, all of which have in them Spirit. God remains undiminished, but that does not make the Spirit any less God. At least, that's how I think about it. Of course, I don't really think my ideas (or anyone's at any time) are accurate reflections of what God is really like. I think we can only guess. What I think we can definitively have is a relationship with God, a personal experience of God. I can never really know what any being on earth is like- even those I am incredibly close to, like my husband- remain somewhat of a mystery. How much more so does God? But yet, I am in love with my husband, we share a life, a home, a constant and daily interaction. And so too with God.

i guess i am like a child when it comes to stuff like this. sometimes i think i might be to gullible when it comes to scripture. there is a verse in the book of the Law where Moses saw God's backside. it would be a priveladge to have seen this. the israelites saw God descend on Mt. Sinai. they saw God's true forms in these stories. doesn't it make you the least bit curious if this was true? i mean, we feel His Spirit everyday, though some of us don't know it, we see how His Spirit works on earth, though i never tire seeing this, i just want to see Him. i want more of Him. i don't know if you know what i mean. maybe you're not supposed to.

I don't buy that God is jealous. I don't mind saying outright that it is not something I agree with. I do not believe scriptural text of any sort is infallible; I think it chronicles a people's experience of God and describes it the best they can at the time (and that is being relatively generous from a scholarly point of view, since in reality it also appears that religions have long been used for some not-so-great political and selfish ends).

this is where i get confused with your way of thinking. how can you judge God? you believe in nature, correct? you don't think that mother nature can be wrathful? you don't believe she can get jealous? correct me if i am wrong, because i know nothing about paganism other than from what you are describing to me on how you worship nature spirits. i just want to understand more on how you think.

The Divine I have, on many occasions, experienced has never felt remotely human.

i am going to use some examples about this because i agree and i disagree. first, i know God isn't flesh. He isn't a man or human. i haven't felt Him in this way like i do a human. i have felt Him like a Father disciplining his son. He has caused things to happen that have humbled me and made me focus more on doing what is right. i can feel when His face is looking at me and approves on what i am doing. its hard to describe. He has opened paths for me. He makes situations more easier to accomplish. *sighs* words getting in the way again. How He feels just can't be described, just that things happen. things that aren't coincidences.

But the occasions where I have felt to be directly in the presence of God Itself, and completely out of my own body, were strange experiences indeed.

you have got to go more into this. please. if you don't mind. if not, just pm me.

I don't think God feels negative emotions like jealousy. Our own feelings of things like jealousy are based in fear- fear of losing that which is precious to us. I don't think God fears anything, because I think God is all-powerful. So it just makes no sense to me, either from a spiritual or logical line of thinking.

i know He doesn't feel fear. maybe because He knows the truth. i know we fear because we don't know the truth, so we fear what we don't know, if that makes sense. i know He feels regret and disappointment. He feels joy. do you don't think that we're in His image? that we have all of His characteristics?

Jealousy, anger, fear... Doesn't that make God sound like a petty tyrant?

jealousy and anger are feelings that can also show love towards someone. if He didn't feel these things for us, He wouldn't care for us when we are doing something wrong. do you know what i mean? ever been jealous of your husband? or angry because he did something wrong? fear is just another type of emotion. i don't know if you have children, but if you did, i would hope you would discipline them for their own good. fear is good because it keeps the ego in check. when children fear their parents, it is a good thing if it is for their own good. to me their are two types of fears, the one that keeps you from sinning and the other one is the wrong one. fear that is used to torture or control someone abusively. i guess too much of something really is bad.

How did God feel about most of the people in human history, who were in shamanic Pagan religions, long before monotheism began? Most of human history, we were hunter-gatherers with animistic systems of belief (everything alive with spirits). So it just doesn't make sense to me why God would be angry about it. It is what it is.

i disagree with you on this theme. as you may know, there were many civilizations before that were more advanced than today's civilization. maybe not tech-wise, but were pretty advanced. i read somewhere that civilization even before the flood was even more advanced than today's civilization. but this is pure speculation on my behalf. something i believe.

On a personal level, I just don't get it either. I've never felt God was angry with me for seeking after God. When I thank the Earth, I don't stop receiving comfort or peace or joy from God. God has never abandoned me, and have faith that S/He never will. Christ has never abandoned me, and I have faith He will ever be at my side. I have felt God come to me when I doubt most, when I reach most into other ways of thinking. I know that God knows I am sincere, and that is what is asked of me.

nothing wrong with how you experience God. i know plenty of people who don't believe in God but yet their works are blessed beyond imagination. its beautiful that God keeps giving despite our mess ups. not that i am saying you are messing up or anything like that, but to the rest of humanity (including myself) who mess up on a daily basis, but are still given the breath of life when we don't even deserve it. just my thoughts. i'm no one to judge.

Yes, we differ greatly in this regard. I think nothing has been given to me. I think it is all temporary, and I am grateful for all that life brings, as it is all a way for me to grow spiritually and to express love, that is to say, to learn more of how I can express God through me. I do believe I am to nurture and heal every being, including myself, but I see this as different from everything being mine. I see everything, including myself, as God's alone. Secondly, as everything as belonging to itself, with its own purpose and rights. So I am thankful to both God and to each individual being for their presence and their gift. And I am respectful to both. I appreciate having others ask my permission to take things from me, even those closest to me. It makes me feel loved and appreciated when my husband asks me for something, rather than taking or demanding it. By extension, I try to give this to all beings and to be aware of each of their gifts and (sometimes) sacrifices to aid my life.

words getting in the way again. sorry if i come off as arrogant. i know what you mean though. nothing is ours. perhaps a verse can express how i feel more accurately.
Praise be to you, O Lord, God of our father Israel, from everlasting to everlasting. Yours, O Lord, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the majesty and the splendor, for everything in heaven and earth is yours. Yours, O Lord, is the kingdom; you are exalted as head over all. Wealth and honor come from you; you are the ruler of all things. In your hands are strength and power to exalt and give strength to all. Now, our God, we give you thanks, and praise your glorious name. But who am I, and who are my people, that we should be able to give as generously as this? Everything comes from you, and we have given you only what comes from your hand. We are aliens and strangers in your sight, as were all our forefathers. Our days on earth are like a shadow, without hope.

I think God spoils no one, but gives to all beings freely.

words getting in the way again. i don't know how to explain this other than when a child is spoiled, they end up disrespectful towards their parents and don't learn to love them more appropriately. then end up embarrasing them in public or in front of guests. this is the way i see spoiled but on a larger level with man. i don't know if this clarifies it.

As for God, I don't think that God operates that way. Look at some of the saints and martyrs. Intensely close to God, they gave everything, even their lives, for their love of Him/Her. Look at Mother Theresa, who lived in poverty with the poorest of the poor. I look at my own mother, who was and is incredibly loving and deeply committed to God, and yet we lived in poverty for years. God didn't do this to us. People create poverty. Fortunately, God's grace and love find people in all circumstances. But to blame bad things happening on God taking stuff away- I think this is placing the blame in the wrong location. Bad things happen for two reasons: 1) natural causes, and these aren't bad except by our own misperception and 2) people-induced causes, and these we could change but haven't yet.

so you don't believe then that everything bad that happens had a reason and nothing good will come out of it? nothing was learned? you're a half empty kinda gal, aren't ya? to me everything has a reason for happening, good or bad. something can be learned out of both. you can either decide to grow from it, or you can stay stuck with it.

Indeed. But how can we know another being's purpose? And what is the value of defining it? I guess I'm kind of the "keep it simple school"- I just focus on my purpose, and I know that to be loving others, healing others, and being joyful in my life. I believe that by loving all beings and finding joy in life, I am helping others fulfill their purposes, whatever they may be.

don't get me wrong, i am simple too. but it doesn't take much to observe everything around you and question it. why is that there? why did this happen? do you know what i mean?

Oh, trees. I could go on and on, but I won't. Too off-topic again. But trees, of all things, really speak of God to me, and life and death, and acceptance, and silence, and power. Trees are never really silent for me, but when in the wind... There is nothing better on earth to me than the feeling of strong wind in a forest. Unless there is also rain and thunder...

depending on the wind, they can be cheering or screaming at you. depends how you look at it.

Oh, me too, Leo. That's why we're here on CR- us odd people who like to go on and on about God! I hardly think you're deranged; what is considered "normal" by US standards is caring more about sports and what celebrities wear than about love and forgiveness and... God. I say, I'm happy to be an odd one. LOL

believe me. i am deranged. the only difference is that i love God so very much. again. thanks for the replies. and God be with you.

 

[path_of_one]

Hi, Leo- I want to preface this response by saying, for the benefit of readers, that I am (obviously) unorthodox in my approach to Christianity. So I am not saying my beliefs are aligned with mainstream Christianity. But I do follow Christ.

i will be truthful, i used to see scripture as very literal, until i started to read that the bible was corrupted throughout history. but i can't help but notice that the majority of the bible hasn't been tampered with.

I don't feel that the Bible has been corrupted that much. Rather, I think that most people misinterpret the Bible due to having a very different language and cultural context than the original authors had. Take a word like "fear" for example. We should fear God? But what does this mean? In Greek, fear means something different than in English-- there are particular kinds of fear. Fearing God in the original language meant having an awesome respect, not cowering and whimpering. But the English connotations of "fear" have meant that many Christians thought they should be [FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']afraid [/FONT]of God. This is very sad, because perfect love should not contain fear. We should be moved to show God's goodness through us because we have love and joy in God, not because we are afraid of consequences. This is like how we want our children to learn to be self-motivated in school, learning because learning is fun and worth the effort, not because they are afraid we will punish them otherwise (or, alternatively, motivated because we will reward them with some treat). Doing the will of God, loving God... it is its own reward and no fear is necessary. However, if we experience God, then we feel an awesome respect- how could we not?

As a cultural anthropologist, I am acutely aware that my cultural and linguistic context is very different from the authors of the Bible. So, it is worth my time to take any passages in which I feel dissonance between what the Spirit leads me to interpret, and what the conventional interpretation is, and see if any of it is reconcilable by more careful study of context and original meaning.

some of the verses still speak to me and move me.

And me as well. It's a beautiful sacred text.

i guess what i meant to ask was, wouldn't it be better to be one with the earth and the heavens as well?

I seek to be one with All. One with the Universe. Earth, all beings, stars, everything. I look into the stars and I feel at home. Druidry, after all, was a religion that was tied to astronomy as well as forests. For me, it is the union of earth and sky, just as Christ is the unity of humanity and the Divine.

i want to be that close to Him so that He can teach me everything He knows about His creation.

I do understand. I believe creation can teach us about itself-- this is a way God expresses Itself to me, reveals Itself to me in little bits I can handle. I think by being close to creation, I come closer to God. And by being close to God, I come close to creation. A never ending feedback loop. The more I spend time with God, the more I see God everywhere I look. And the more I exist in that state, the more God is right there with me.

i guess i am like a child when it comes to stuff like this. sometimes i think i might be to gullible when it comes to scripture.

I think God gives each of us what we need from scripture when we need it. There is no need to feel gullible or anything like that. As you read, the Spirit will give you what you need at that moment. It may not be what I need, but that is the great thing about God- God can meet all of our spiritual needs simultaneously. This is why I can believe what I do, and yet not feel that others must agree. It's not a question of correctness, but rather usefulness- God gives me what is useful to my soul's journey with Him, and likewise, She does that with every other person. At least, that is my take on things.

they saw God's true forms in these stories.

I'd be interested in knowing if the Jews think that these were God's true forms. I'd be willing to bet on "no." From what I understand, God is absolute in Judaism and has no true form, but manifests in whatever way is appropriate for that time- a burning bush, etc. All is manifestation, nothing is God's real form, at least from what I understand. It might be a good question for the Judaism forum, actually.

doesn't it make you the least bit curious if this was true?

Not really. I'm not really into solidity. What I mean, is I am after the experience of what God feels like, not so much what God might look like. Maybe that's because of how I've always experienced the world. I see two worlds (at least) and have since I was a small child: the world we see on the surface, and the energy/spirit world that is overlaid (underlaid?) on it. Any being (human, plant, animal, rock, star, whatever) is not just something my eyes see. It is an energetic feeling I get. It's the energy that I think of as the core/essence of something- it's the consciousness of whatever-it-is that I interact with, not the external form, that is what I see as the primary driver. The rest is a beautiful and temporary illusion on top of the eternal. So, by extension, I'm content with just experiencing closeness to God. I don't really need to see anything per se.

I'll try to make a solid example. Take Jesus. The Christ was always there (eternal) and always will be. The Christ is the Logos (the Word) of God. Through the Christ were all things made. So... does the Christ look like Jesus now? Was Jesus the Christ's true form, or just a temporary manifestation of the Logos? In some of my visions, Jesus shows up in a "form" but I'm always aware that the form is just what my brain needs to feel comfy and recognize what's going on. That is, I know the Christ is not what I see in my vision. The Christ is the message, the energy behind the visualization I get.

i want more of Him. i don't know if you know what i mean. maybe you're not supposed to.

I want more of God too. Always. I don't think there is a "supposed to." I think it is the seeking that is important, and God meets us where ever we are at.

how can you judge God?

I don't. My point is that if we assign God human emotions like jealousy, then we claim to know and understand how God feels and thinks. Jealousy is psychologically tied to fear. We do not feel jealous unless we are afraid of loss. I don't think God is afraid of anything, so I don't think jealousy is an option. It could be that jealousy meant something else in Hebrew and then it would make sense to me. Or it could be that some people thought God would be jealous but that was just their opinion. I believe the Bible is a book about the human relationship to the Divine, and the Jews' ideas about it. I don't think it was meant to be without re-interpretation and revelation.

you don't think that mother nature can be wrathful? you don't believe she can get jealous?

No. And no. What some see as wrath is simply destructive force. Destruction is necessary for creation. Out of the same stuff springs forth infinite life- it's recycling. It all leads to life, does it not? Consider any destruction, and from it springs new life. Life is good. Nature destroys and nature creates, and in that cycle is wholeness.

correct me if i am wrong, because i know nothing about paganism other than from what you are describing to me on how you worship nature spirits. i just want to understand more on how you think.

No problem. But I don't worship nature spirits. I worship God, and I talk to nature spirits. I treat nature spirits like I treat other humans- like people. Sometimes they can teach me, just like other people can. Sometimes they need healing, just like other people do. Sometimes we just enjoy each other's company.

i have felt Him like a Father disciplining his son. He has caused things to happen that have humbled me and made me focus more on doing what is right. i can feel when His face is looking at me and approves on what i am doing. its hard to describe. He has opened paths for me. He makes situations more easier to accomplish. things that aren't coincidences.

Mmmm, I see where you're going. But I don't think God causes it all, really- at least not directly. I think God created a universe that operates with synchronicity. What I put forth in my deepest mind (not necessarily what is in my waking consciousness), this affects the world around me and brings me what I need. This is not to say that God is not involved- I think this is due to God's will and order. But I don't think God chooses my circumstances for good or bad. I've seen a lot of people whose faith goes out the window when they think they are doing all the right things spiritually and then they become very ill, or poor, or lose a loved one. And suddenly, there is no God. I think the mistake was them thinking that all these things were connected to their faith.

I should worship God and seek to be a vessel for Love because that is my highest purpose, the essence of my being, and what is most harmonious in the universe. My circumstances at any given moment are a manifestation of not only my own consciousness, but all other beings' as well (or at least all sentient beings). So, sometimes I manifest something in my life because I am either harmonious with God's will (my purpose) or because I am not. And sometimes others manifest things into my life by peripheral impact- other people's choices affect me simply because they're around me. Sometimes what I might interpret as bad for me (poverty, getting a disease, etc.) is just a bummer effect of other people, but usually if I give it to God, I will gain spiritually from the challenge. I believe we should work toward ending suffering and healing all beings, showing the light and love of God to everyone without measure. It's a tall order, but Jesus showed us the way, and encouraged us that we could do work such as his, and to take up his cross and follow him. I have hope that we can do it.

 

[path_of_one]

you have got to go more into this. please. if you don't mind. if not, just pm me.

I've written a little bit about some of them in the Science and the Universe section under the Chaos and Big Theories thread. Those were the two most mind-blowing, but I've had lots and lots of them. I started with dreams and visions when I was maybe 2 or 3. I think it's just how I "tick" for some reason. I've talked a bit about my journey in the Alternative Christian Awakenings thread (not sure where it is, but I think that was the title- you might try a search).

do you don't think that we're in His image? that we have all of His characteristics?

Yes and no, respectively. I think everything was made in God's image, and we have some unique characteristics that show some of God's attributes- namely, the capacity to create and the capacity to be awake to both self and God at once (that is, the capacity to think of ourselves as individual entities and then move into consciousness that we are not actually individual entities). But all of His characteristics? No. I don’t think we’re exact replicas of God, and only an exact replica of God in Its fullness could have all His characteristics.

jealousy and anger are feelings that can also show love towards someone.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. I think that is not the type of love God is. It is an impure love. Someone can care that a person does something wrong without the attachment to jealousy or anger. Of course, I have been angry (occasionally) and jealous (very rarely), but I think that is my own shortcoming, not evidence of love. There is a space of detachment to self in which love exists that is never angry or jealous. That is, a realization that what is real cannot be threatened, so there is a sense of what is just, but no negative emotions associated with injustice. The capacity to act decisively for what is most harmonious and supports love without negativity means that we can adequately communicate to another being the love of God, and we meet no resistance. Others resist when they feel our negativity. Without this, they feel safe and can therefore learn and grow. They can hear our real concern and the truthfulness of our sense of justice because it is not clouded by our personal emotions and investment in the situation.

Discipline is not about jealousy or anger or fear. It is about perceiving the path of most harmony, of God's will, and applying it to life, whether to our own life, or sharing it with others. I completely disagree about children fearing their parents. All the children I know who fear their parents stop telling them things. Tons of my friends when I was in high school talked to my mother about difficult things- and took her advice- because she was not angry and didn’t cause them fear or shame or guilt. So then, they felt safe and were free to make better choices based on sound advice. They had little resistance to a person that showed them love and respect, yet had wisdom.

I think fear does not generate self-motivated. When we are afraid, we are always motivated by someone else and what we think they might do “if we do this or that.” I think mature morality is when we are self-motivated to love and show goodness. I think this comes in cultivating children’s intuitive capacity to sense the path of best action, and their intuitive desire to experience God. If we teach them to fear us, we have problems- some children rebel. Some children withdraw. Some children never develop their own awareness of the conscience, so new situations are confusing. Some children live in shame or guilt.

Not making those around me (whether children, co-workers that are under my management, horses I train, etc) fear me is not the same as having no discipline. For example, my horses don’t fear me, but they respect me. Why? Because I never react with anger, but I always react with calm consistency. They know what to expect and what the boundaries are, and the consequences, but the consequences are never applied with anger, so they know there is nothing to fear. The same thing works with people. The biggest problem I see in parenting is that many parents are inconsistent *and* angry, which accomplishes little but making children scared of them, depressed, and/or rebellious, depending on their personality. It isn’t that too much fear is the problem, but rather that respect is not the same thing as fear. Respect comes from consistent, calm, thoughtful leadership- and leading foremost by example, providing choice, and teaching each being its own capacity to choose the right path. Fear comes from unpredictability, chaotic emotion and energy, and selfish leadership- leading by threat, intimidation, or hypocrisy.

as you may know, there were many civilizations before that were more advanced than today's civilization. maybe not tech-wise, but were pretty advanced. i read somewhere that civilization even before the flood was even more advanced than today's civilization. but this is pure speculation on my behalf. something i believe.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. My views are based on anthropological science, which is my profession. I can honestly say that we see in the archaeological record supports some Biblical events, but it does not support agricultural societies and large civilizations being the bulk of human history. It’s a very recent thing. Shamanism and animism were around much longer than any other form of religious structure, at least in the archaeological record.

to the rest of humanity (including myself) who mess up on a daily basis, but are still given the breath of life when we don't even deserve it.

I don’t think in terms of what I deserve, just what is. I’m grateful for what is, whether I deserve it or not. God creates, God gives life. That’s wonderful. Why feel any sense of shame or guilt or inferiority about the gift? I just accept what’s given with thanks in my heart and praise God with my soul. It’s simple, but it’s just what I do. I think God gives us life so that we can be loving and joyful, so that’s what I try to do.

words getting in the way again. sorry if i come off as arrogant.

I know, it’s always hard with words- hard for all of us. And you don’t come across as arrogant at all.

so you don't believe then that everything bad that happens had a reason and nothing good will come out of it? nothing was learned? you're a half empty kinda gal, aren't ya?

No, not at all. I don’t see the glass as half empty or half full. I think everything that is, is. We should change everything we can that causes suffering or works against love. The rest that we cannot change, that is not caused by us, we should change our perception so that we learn and grow spiritually from it.

For example, we can change that there is war. We cause war. We could choose not to cause war, and we should. War is bad, and it happens because we screw up and cause it.

We can’t (arguably) change that there is disease and death. Disease happens because other organisms have a right to live (bacteria and such) and sometimes that impinges on what we wanted (longer life and more comfort). But is that really so bad? Is it causing suffering in the way we think it is? Does it work against love? Or do we suffer because we have not progressed beyond wanting to remain the same forever, wanting to be painless, wanting to be the first and foremost being in creation (and therefore without any impact from other beings in Nature)?

From the cow’s point of view, or the carrot’s—it’s really bad that we eat and they die. From our point of view, it’s the circle of life, it’s a good thing- we get to live. From my point of view—it’s really bad that I might get sick and die. From the germs’ point of view, it’s the circle of life, it’s a good thing- it gets to live.

you can either decide to grow from it, or you can stay stuck with it.

I entirely agree.

but it doesn't take much to observe everything around you and question it. why is that there? why did this happen? do you know what i mean?

I do question and wonder. I just don’t think the answers are necessary or particularly relevant for salvation. My mind wonders, but my spirit is content to experience. I acknowledge I’m kind of odd, because I’ve always been kind of dualistic in myself- my spirit observes my mind and vice versa. My spirit is what experiences the visions and just… is. Experiences the presence of God. Joy. Love. Peace. My mind is what tries to figure out “what does this all mean? How do I communicate it to others? How do I apply it to today?” I think it’s the former that is my deliverance and my essence, and the latter is necessary only because of the illusion of matter. When I’m out of my body, I don’t think about what I experience. I just experience things and get messages. So I tend to see the questioning as a function of my brain/body rather than my spirit.

depending on the wind, they can be cheering or screaming at you. depends how you look at it.

I hear them singing. Or whispering.

Blessings to you, Leo-
Path

 

[mee]

Jesus what happens now ?



And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5 For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind. REVELATION 18;4



Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’"; "‘and I will take YOU in.’"
2 CORINTHIANS 6;17




ok