Buddhism... Misunderstanding?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Vaj,

I would be interested in a working definition of Buddha Dharma.

Namaste Netti-Netti,

hmm... given your frequent postings regarding the Buddha Dharma i suspect that you have a working understanding of the term.

nevertheless it is typically understood as the First, Second and Third Turning of the Wheel which include a whole variety of teachings and instructions which are not applicable to all beings at all times.

metta,

~v

 

[seattlegal]

Namaste Netti-Netti,

hmm... given your frequent postings regarding the Buddha Dharma i suspect that you have a working understanding of the term.

nevertheless it is typically understood as the First, Second and Third Turning of the Wheel which include a whole variety of teachings and instructions which are not applicable to all beings at all times.

metta,

~v

Would the first turning of the wheel be the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path?

 

[Vajradhara]

Would the first turning of the wheel be the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path?

Namaste Seattlegal,

thank you for the post.

the First Turning of the Wheel of Dharma corresponds to the initial promulgation of the Dharma to the ascetics with whom he had practiced meditation and bodily mortification all of whom became members of the Sangha.

in terms of doctrine and discipline it would include the exposition of the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path.

metta,

~v

 

[Francis king]

all you have to do to be a buddhist is to repreat the triple refuge three times...

 

[citizenzen]

On Gautama's death bed he said: "Seek salvation alone in truth; look not for assistance to anyone besides yourself." So it is the individual mind set and personal development is what turns on the lightbulb of enlightenment, so why do some call it "following the way of Buddha." And abiding by his rules and teachings?

Then again I guess if you follow his last words, you're following assitance from another.... Can't win :O

Because people are lazy frightened little children who want to find short cuts to enlightenment instead of spending lifetimes in Hell.

Some of us call them pussies.

 

[seattlegal]

I wished to ask a question.... As I am not sure if I understand or not, but it seems if I understand, then, buddhist misunderstand, if you know what I mean....

On Gautama's death bed he said: "Seek salvation alone in truth;

If you don't love truth, you must love delusion...

look not for assistance to anyone besides yourself."

The love of truth must come from within.

So it is the individual mind set and personal development is what turns on the lightbulb of enlightenment, so why do some call it "following the way of Buddha." And abiding by his rules and teachings?

Then again I guess if you follow his last words, you're following assitance from another.... Can't win :O

Is this an excuse to not love truth?

 

[citizenzen]

So it is the individual mind set and personal development is what turns on the lightbulb of enlightenment, so why do some call it "following the way of Buddha." And abiding by his rules and teachings?

Because "following the way of Beatrice" would confuse people.

And screw the rules.

Make up your own as you go on. Buddha did.

 

[TheKhan]

I wished to ask a question.... As I am not sure if I understand or not, but it seems if I understand, then, buddhist misunderstand, if you know what I mean....

On Gautama's death bed he said: "Seek salvation alone in truth; look not for assistance to anyone besides yourself." So it is the individual mind set and personal development is what turns on the lightbulb of enlightenment, so why do some call it "following the way of Buddha." And abiding by his rules and teachings?

Then again I guess if you follow his last words, you're following assitance from another.... Can't win :O

I`m not an expert, but I think what Gautama meant was that most people are in a tea party clubbing mindset all their lifes, there`s nothing wrong with that though. Because to be alone, thinking alone is pretty stressful, and I personally enjoy being in places where a lot of people know my name.

Let`s say your day starts with "how are you doing?" over a cup of tea, and you spend your day talking about who did what, and what you thought about it all day, generally the meaningless gossip talk and go to bed. Wake up the next morning and do the same thing again, all your life. This is how a lot of people spend their lifes in my opinion.

Maybe Gautama meant to say, step out of that realm(mindset), and you just might find something. Having people around you can cause quite a bit of chatter, you might actually care what they think too etc.. no matter who`s around.

It may not matter what you do, you are likely to be on the path(palm) of the Buddha is what I think is meant in "following the way of the Buddha". You`re already on it, whether you know it or not supposedly.

Generally I think he wanted people to snap out of a standard sleeping state, if they are looking for salvation.

 

[Pathless]

Because people are lazy frightened little children who want to find short cuts to enlightenment instead of spending lifetimes in Hell.

and

Because "following the way of Beatrice" would confuse people.

And screw the rules.

Make up your own as you go on. Buddha did.

Along those lines...

Shodoka: Song of Freedom

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Can a wooden puppet attain Buddhahood[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
by its practice of not–thinking?[/FONT]
​

 

[saddha]

Yes it is a misunderstanding.

In order to become a Buddhist, one VERIFIES his confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.

In other words, you have to understand the argument that the Buddha makes is correct. That his teachings are correct.



With this verification you undertake the Triple Gem refuge, which makes one a Buddhist.

And yes, Buddhism does have it's texts, the oldest is called the Tipitika.

 

[seattlegal]

Hi Wil,

Arguably one could also become a Buddhist without going through a ceremony.

Someone said that a Buddhist would never identify him/herself as a Buddhist. From that standpoint, going through a ritual to ostensibly become a "Buddhist" actually makes very little sense.

Maybe the ceremony is more like an affirmation of a community affiliation. I would downplay the importance of ritual given that Buddhism is to a large degree Hinduism without all the ritual. I think there was a reason why the Buddha wanted to get rid of that stuff.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and this chapter from the Tao Te Ching finally came to mind in this regard:

LaoTze - TaoDeJing
38. Ritual
Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;
Closely held beliefs are not easily released;
So ritual enthralls generation after generation.

Harmony does not care for harmony, and so is naturally attained;
But ritual is intent upon harmony, and so can not attain it.

Harmony neither acts nor reasons;
Love acts, but without reason;
Justice acts to serve reason;
But ritual acts to enforce reason.

When the Way is lost, there remains harmony;
When harmony is lost, there remains love;
When love is lost, there remains justice;
But when justice is lost, there remains ritual.

Ritual is the end of compassion and honesty,
The beginning of confusion;
Belief is a colourful hope or fear,
The beginning of folly.

The sage goes by harmony, not by hope;
He dwells in the fruit, not the flower;
He accepts substance, and ignores abstraction.
​

The first lines remind me about the Buddhist idea of letting go of the vehicle once you have reached the other shore, and the part near the end of the chapter about ritual being the end of compassion and honesty would suggest that it's a danger sign that you are traveling away from the other shore...

 

[Netti-Netti]

Ritual is the end of compassion and honesty,
The beginning of confusion;
​

I'm having trouble with this. In a very real sense, a religious life can seen as a ritual of devotion. Every part of life is an opportunity for transformation and sanctification.

Maybe the ceremony is more like an affirmation of a community affiliation. I would downplay the importance of ritual given that Buddhism is to a large degree Hinduism without all the ritual.

The same shift away from emphasis on occasional rites/rituals toward a Path of Devotion (shakti) is in evidence in the Gita, which some say was compiled between the fifth and second century B.C. Was the Gita influenced by Buddhism? Research question.

 

[Netti-Netti]

The same shift away from emphasis on occasional rites/rituals toward a Path of Devotion (Bhakti) is in evidence in the Gita, which some say was compiled between the fifth and second century B.C. Was the Gita influenced by Buddhism? Research question.

See also:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/desire-9207.html#post153132

Bhakti yoga could easily have been influenced by the Buddhist shift away from ceremonial proceedings to a totalised Dharma lifestyle. Bhakti yoga as a movement appears several hundred years after the Buddha.

 

[seattlegal]

Ritual is the end of compassion and honesty,
The beginning of confusion;

​

I'm having trouble with this. In a very real sense, a religious life can seen as a ritual of devotion. Every part of life is an opportunity for transformation and sanctification.

Well, consider the recent conversations on this forum regarding the Christian ritual of baptism, and the differences between the sects that have a strong emphasis on hierarchy within their sects, and those that don't. Tell me that ain't confusion. Now consider them in the context of the first few lines of Tao Te Ching 38:

Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;
Closely held beliefs are not easily released;
So ritual enthralls generation after generation.​

See what this is highlighting?

The same shift away from emphasis on occasional rites/rituals toward a Path of Devotion (shakti)

(more confusion?)

See also:
http://www.interfaith.org/forum/desire-9207.html#post153132

Bhakti yoga could easily have been influenced by the Buddhist shift away from ceremonial proceedings to a totalised Dharma lifestyle. Bhakti yoga as a movement appears several hundred years after the Buddha.

How difficult would it be to abandon the vehicle of devotion when you reach the other shore?

 

[Netti-Netti]

Well, consider the recent conversations on this forum regarding the Christian ritual of baptism, and the differences between the sects that have a strong emphasis on hierarchy within their sects, and those that don't. Tell me that ain't confusion. Now consider them in the context of the first few lines of Tao Te Ching 38:

Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;
Closely held beliefs are not easily released;
So ritual enthralls generation after generation.​

See what this is highlighting?

Ideological/institutionalized religion?

(more confusion?)

Not really. The Path of Devotion unifies the Path of Knowledge and the Path of Action.

How difficult would it be to abandon the vehicle of devotion when you reach the other shore?

Check back to the other discussion on Bhakti in the Desire thread I linked. The part about Bhakti being the means and the end. http://www.interfaith.org/forum/desire-9207.html#post153132

 

[seattlegal]

Ideological/institutionalized religion?

I'm thinking about what happened to Confucianism when it became the State religion, and the fascism that was its fruit. (I've punningly referred to this fascist brand of Confucianism as Confusionism in the past.)

Not really. The Path of Devotion unifies the Path of Knowledge and the Path of Action.

Sorry. I was referring to your slip of substituting shakti for Bhakti in this regard. (Although I can see where some confusion might have arisen in this regard in mankind's history.)

Check back to the other discussion on Bhakti in the Desire thread I linked. The part about Bhakti being the means and the end. http://www.interfaith.org/forum/desire-9207.html#post153132

Will do.

 

[Netti-Netti]

I'm thinking about what happened to Confucianism when it became the State religion, and the fascism that was its fruit. (I've punningly referred to this fascist brand of Confucianism as Confusionism in the past.)

Interesting. I notice Hinduism is part of civil service exams in India. Must be the official state religion there.

Regarding Confucianism, it was a dominant philosophy at one tiime, but apparently was not actually institutionalized: "Although Confucianism became the official ideology of the Chinese state, it has never existed as an established religion with a church and priesthood."
What year did China become a Confucian state? - Yahoo! Answers

To my way of thinking there would have had to take the form of institutionalized/organized religion in order for the ideology to influence the social order in an immediate way.

Sorry. I was referring to your slip of substituting shakti for Bhakti in this regard. (Although I can see where some confusion might have arisen in this regard in mankind's history.)

! I meant Bhakti.

 

[seattlegal]

I'm thinking about what happened to Confucianism when it became the State religion, and the fascism that was its fruit. (I've punningly referred to this fascist brand of Confucianism as Confusionism in the past.)

Interesting. I notice Hinduism is part of civil service exams in India. Must be the official state religion there.

Regarding Confucianism, it was a dominant philosophy at one tiime, but apparently was not actually institutionalized: "Although Confucianism became the official ideology of the Chinese state, it has never existed as an established religion with a church and priesthood."
What year did China become a Confucian state? - Yahoo! Answers

To my way of thinking there would have had to take the form of institutionalized/organized religion in order for the ideology to influence the social order in an immediate way.

I'm referring to the mutated form it took, called Legalism, which was started by some disciples of the Confucianist Xun Zi, like Li Si and Han Fei.

! I meant Bhakti.

Yeah, I know.

 

[Netti-Netti]

I'm referring to the mutated form it took, called Legalism, which was started by some disciples of the Confucianist Xun Zi, like Li Si and Han Fei.

It seems they interpreted the Tao Te Ching as a political text. They may have been legalists first.

To get back to Bhakti and Buddhism. It seems the Bhakti faith antedated Buddhism. However, I also have seen reference to bodhisattva Lokeshvara as being "a fusion of Avalokiteshvara and Shiva" - something that apparently developed in the context of a resurgence of Shiva worship in Buddhist populations. There was also a discussion of "the Bhramanization of Buddhism." These trends were happening between 700-1000 AD.

It seems there were substantial attempts to re-introduce a theistic component to atheistic/materialistic Buddhism, and these efforts seem to have drawn on the old Bhakti faith.

 

[seattlegal]

It seems they interpreted the Tao Te Ching as a political text. They may have been legalists first.

Methinks 'opportunists first' might be a bit more fitting.

To get back to Bhakti and Buddhism. It seems the Bhakti faith antedated Buddhism.

No argument here.

However, I also have seen reference to bodhisattva Lokeshvara as being "a fusion of Avalokiteshvara and Shiva" - something that apparently developed in the context of a resurgence of Shiva worship in Buddhist populations. There was also a discussion of "the Bhramanization of Buddhism." These trends were happening between 700-1000 AD.

It seems there were substantial attempts to re-introduce a theistic component to atheistic/materialistic Buddhism, and these efforts seem to have drawn on the old Bhakti faith.

And from many others, doubtless.