juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
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17th Angel
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*blags one from SG* Here ya go.
Hi juantoo —
Laziness is, however. Another one for you: "The unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates.
Thomas
Laziness is, however. Another one for you: "The unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates.
Not always ... when seeking becomes a virtue for its own sake, then most of its product is dross.
That's part of the examination ...
Yes ... we call it common sense.
Thomas
Dream
Well-Known Member
Five pages in one night!
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Depends how you look at it... This was started before I finished work yesterday... I am now halfway through my next work day :\ so kinda.
Ji Juantoo —
I was thinking about this over lunch ... my initial comment of 'dross' might seem a bit harsh.
When discussing 'faith' — which is the context in which the question was framed, knowledge or information is then determined as either 'informative' or 'performative'. Informative just adds to the bank of stuff we already know, and that's about all its does. Performative on the other hand is not merely a communication of things that can be known — it is of the order of a life-changing commitment.
Going back to tradition, to Bacon, and by the evidence of my eyes, many toady interpret 'gnosis' to be data of the informative kind, thus we have all manner of charlatans peddling the truth of 'gnostic Christianity' which amounts to little more than intriuing and enticing exotica ... food for the modern mind and its penchant for conspiracy theories.
The true Christian gnosis is of the performative order ... initiation into the Christian Mysteries does not result in me knowing something you don't know, it involved me engaging with the Divine in a way I could not do before, and indeed which man cannot do of his own account.
So in the last analysis, the statement 'I don't know' is a sure sign that 'Faith' a knowing which in itself has the power to be performative, is reduced by man to something purely informative, and about which, when someone asks, 'can it make a difference' the only answer can be ... "I don't know."
+++
The later proliferation of Christian denominations turn on two historical moments — the Reformation and the Enlightenment. In both cases the performative dimension was reduced according to a human rationality (questionable rationality in Luther's case), the more profound depths of the Mystery became occluded as man sought to rationalise what he couldn't understand.
The schism between denominations in pre-Reformation times was of a different order, they turned on the objective apprehension of the truth. The Reformation and the Enlightenment was the triumph of subject over object, an inversion of the proper order.
Thomas
I was thinking about this over lunch ... my initial comment of 'dross' might seem a bit harsh.
When discussing 'faith' — which is the context in which the question was framed, knowledge or information is then determined as either 'informative' or 'performative'. Informative just adds to the bank of stuff we already know, and that's about all its does. Performative on the other hand is not merely a communication of things that can be known — it is of the order of a life-changing commitment.
Going back to tradition, to Bacon, and by the evidence of my eyes, many toady interpret 'gnosis' to be data of the informative kind, thus we have all manner of charlatans peddling the truth of 'gnostic Christianity' which amounts to little more than intriuing and enticing exotica ... food for the modern mind and its penchant for conspiracy theories.
The true Christian gnosis is of the performative order ... initiation into the Christian Mysteries does not result in me knowing something you don't know, it involved me engaging with the Divine in a way I could not do before, and indeed which man cannot do of his own account.
So in the last analysis, the statement 'I don't know' is a sure sign that 'Faith' a knowing which in itself has the power to be performative, is reduced by man to something purely informative, and about which, when someone asks, 'can it make a difference' the only answer can be ... "I don't know."
+++
The later proliferation of Christian denominations turn on two historical moments — the Reformation and the Enlightenment. In both cases the performative dimension was reduced according to a human rationality (questionable rationality in Luther's case), the more profound depths of the Mystery became occluded as man sought to rationalise what he couldn't understand.
The schism between denominations in pre-Reformation times was of a different order, they turned on the objective apprehension of the truth. The Reformation and the Enlightenment was the triumph of subject over object, an inversion of the proper order.
Thomas
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
personally, i don't know how anyone has the brass neck to tell me that stuff that i and three thousand years of my co-religionists find very meaningful, something without which civilisation would have been very, very different, is in fact meaningless. oh, hang on, yes, i do.
b'shalom
bananabrain
b'shalom
bananabrain
T
Tao_Equus
Guest
True, but could it have been much worse?
bananabrain
awkward squadnik
yes.
of course, you only have my word for it, but you must admit that it is patently impossible for you to substantiate your belief without actually producing a parallel version of human history. to quote gandalf, "even the very wise cannot see all ends".
perhaps you are right in one way, though, tao. if religious people had actually done what they were told to do, rather than ignoring large parts of it to do with peace, social justice and morality, the world might be a much nicer place. if all jews kept shabbat, for example, we would contribute a great deal to saving the environment by not driving our cars for 1/7th of the week. personally, my car use dropped 42% the minute i stopped driving on saturdays. similarly, if we all tried to "love your neighbour as yourself", i find it hard to believe the world would be a worse place.
i'm not saying "more religion" is the answer. i'm saying "more of the right sort of religious behaviours" is the answer.
b'shalom
bananabrain
of course, you only have my word for it, but you must admit that it is patently impossible for you to substantiate your belief without actually producing a parallel version of human history. to quote gandalf, "even the very wise cannot see all ends".
perhaps you are right in one way, though, tao. if religious people had actually done what they were told to do, rather than ignoring large parts of it to do with peace, social justice and morality, the world might be a much nicer place. if all jews kept shabbat, for example, we would contribute a great deal to saving the environment by not driving our cars for 1/7th of the week. personally, my car use dropped 42% the minute i stopped driving on saturdays. similarly, if we all tried to "love your neighbour as yourself", i find it hard to believe the world would be a worse place.
i'm not saying "more religion" is the answer. i'm saying "more of the right sort of religious behaviours" is the answer.
b'shalom
bananabrain
hurr...hurr
he says as he raises his glasses to his forhead and stomps his staff in agreement...
he says as he raises his glasses to his forhead and stomps his staff in agreement...
17th Angel
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17th Angel
לבעוט את התחת ולקחת שמות
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B
Bishadi
Guest
OK..... all life must give a portion of itself to continue.
See any living cell.
Women beget man?
True or false
B
Bishadi
Guest
Now please tell the Pope that faith does not finish the truth.
Point is religions do not share what is absolute in truth.
What is the fallacy? You want your children to have the truth as well.
Between all measurement.
entangled energy
Mass is energy (light) affixed in time.
Electric and magnetic field at perpendicular planes; see the cross!
Until now!
See gravity but with a twist; mankind can predetermine or experience the affect before acting or imposition to existence.
So if your kid wanted to see what is is like to pee from the kitchen counter top simply for 'curiousity' would you educate 'why he shouldn't'?
so your point is not so clear
People who do think they know everything, scare me.
Me too, as reality shares even the greatest computer on earth cannot 'know everything' but in fact when a pradigm shift occurs seems that all understanding of existing knowledge is affected; so all knowledge will be affected and often contradicts what people believe; such as entropy is only pure in reduced observation to the systems environment.
Meaning if life followed the 2nd law of thermodynamics; there would be no life!
Postulate: Life; abuses entropy!
B
Bishadi
Guest
wisdom class 301
teachings by simply following the answers of evolution; like a progress of 123
B
Bishadi
Guest
or drunk, again!
B
Bishadi
Guest
B
Bishadi
Guest
see what integrity does to people?
They learn to face reality, square up!
as in contrast; this Mee me character does nothing but follow the words of men.
Meaning if the birds and the bees shared how life existed, he would tell his kid, God (some dude on a thrown) magically created it.
Rather than just being honest and say "i don't know"
B
Bishadi
Guest
Sir Francis Bacon aka.. Shakespeare....
Baconian Evidence for Shakespeare Authorship
Gotta love integrity.
Brilliant!
Or how about another bacon
math is the universal language
That was Roger.... early 13th century
Inprisoned for almost 20 years for being a friar with a mean sense of obligation to the truth.
Love 'em like the uncles of namesake.......
My family are all bacon bits as this lineage is what holds the line back to the the single digit centuries.
And if you really do your homework you will find that Roger had a serious light pursuit, as well.
It's a family tradition!
B
Bishadi
Guest
Which perfects the reality that no faith has the answers complete.
Correct. As the first precept is integrity or honesty. And if integrity was kept in pursuing knowledge, that may even contradict the belief itself, this world could be a better place.
i.e.... mankind created all words. So with this fact in place then religion could not have revealed all that is true in fact 1500-2000 years ago.
Compassion?
We can all agree but compassion never meant to retain ignorance or complacency to magic and omnipotence. As we learned the earth revolves around the sun, means we are subject to what nature reveals as true.
Think about it; mankind can misrepresent what it believes to be true; nature reveals what is true.