The Anthropology of Religion Part I: Definitions

Didn't Carl Jung have a bit to say about religion? Or is that getting a bit ahead of ourselves too?

He did- feel free to bring things up- I'm not sure if I'd get around to Jung on my own or not, since he's a bit outside how most anthropologists study religion.

Teilhard de Chardin, that's it. Thank goodness for Google. Of course, he was peripherally implicated with the Peking man fraud too. OK, found it:

People naturally want to believe that evolution is goal-directed. Generally, people are uncomfy with the idea that they're the product of randomness. I don't really think of evolution as goal-directed, but I don't think of it as a random process, either. If God is in the process (rather than directing it or standing outside it), then it doesn't necessarily follow that God had a goal. Maybe God just likes diversity and creating stuff- the art and beauty of form. I think there are other possibilities between randomness and meaninglessness and goal-directedness.
 
Knocking back an espresso may be described as "...a blissful realization where a person's inner nature, the originally pure mind, is directly known as an illuminating emptiness, a thusness which is dynamic and immanent in the world." The Japanese word for this is "kensho." ;););)

s.

PS What is the point of decaf?
Hmm, maybe it's for those those who prefer zazen, so they can sit still on their cushions? :p
**runs and ducks around corner, peeking back around looking for signs of flying coffee...oh, wait, decaf can't fly...**
 
Hmm, maybe it's for those those who prefer zazen, so they can sit still on their cushions? :p
**runs and ducks around corner, peeking back around looking for signs of flying coffee...oh, wait, decaf can't fly...**

Zazen first, then coffee!

s.
 
He did- feel free to bring things up- I'm not sure if I'd get around to Jung on my own or not, since he's a bit outside how most anthropologists study religion.
That's cool, but you're the teacher here, I'm still looking forward to your take on James. Don't wanna get too far ahead.
 
That's cool, but you're the teacher here, I'm still looking forward to your take on James. Don't wanna get too far ahead.

:) I don't know about teacher- I see teaching as just facilitating. So anytime anyone wants to jump in with their own stuff, feel free. :D
 
:) I don't know about teacher- I see teaching as just facilitating.

"When I was in school, I cheated on my metaphysics exam: I looked into the soul of the boy sitting next to me."

- Woody Allen.

s.

 
Is religion the stuff that is on the social surface: the ideas, the practices, the community... or is religion the transformation of individuals and community? I think anthropology generally argues the former, and comparative religion often argues the latter.

How about working backwards from psychological theory?


I'm not sure to what extent any of these positions have been tested empirically. They sound like a post facto re-interpretations of pre-existing data. I'm curious what the anthropological evidence would look like.
(T)he diverse range of beliefs, behavior, and experience that we collectively refer to as religion emerge as byproducts of numerous, domain-specific psychological mechanisms that evolved to solve other (mundane) adaptive problems. These include mechanisms for reasoning about the natural world (naive physics and biology), about other people's minds (naive psychology), and about specific kinds of interpersonal relationships (attachment, kinship, social exchange, coalitions, status hierarchies).
Toward an Evolutionary Psychology of Religion and Personality
 
Long ago-somewhere-I recall some writer saying that the Sanskrit term "dukkha" is actually roughly translatable in terms of the metaphor of a wheel not properly centered upon its axle and therefore "wobbly.":) Earl

Namaste Earl,

i think that is an apt analogy.. everything is somewhat out of kilter and wonky.

there is a tendency to focus on one meaning of a term or one application of it but, in my view, such an action limits the scope of what is being communicated.

i've read enough about it that i feel a certain sympathy for translators that try to strike a balance to convey the meaning of the text without losing too much of the nuance, some do the job more ably than others, to be sure, but its not an easy task for any.

metta,

~v
 
How about working backwards from psychological theory?


I think it all works together. Psychology gets at the individual; sociology and anthropology get at the community/society. To be honest, there is a lot of overlap between the social sciences and they differ more in methodology and perspective than theoretical background. We tend to all work off the same basic "founders" if you will, but branched into different directions of research related to our historical functions within the state governments of the US and Europe, which now has some effects on how business is done.


I'm not sure to what extent any of these positions have been tested empirically. They sound like a post facto re-interpretations of pre-existing data. I'm curious what the anthropological evidence would look like.

Well, it's tough to test any position about human society empirically, in the sense that you can test things in other sciences like chemistry. We kind of have to deal with the data that's out there, and we can't experiment. Psychology tries, but in so doing, limits the circumstances of the experiments so much that many other folks find the conclusions likely to be fabricated and useless.

To complicate matters, theoretical differences sometimes set up false debates that cover up the real messiness of social institutions- for example, you can use theories such as functionalism vs. marxism, but in reality, both may be simultaneously correct and valid ways of understanding religion.

And to make things even more interesting, you can collect data that appear to reveal something, only to find that what they reveal is useless and just a by-product of the real connections. When they did cross-cultural statistical studies, they found that all cultures with airplanes also had bow-ties, but that isn't a useful connection of any sort. There is no relationship of airplanes to bow-ties, except through other, deeper ties of the societies that have them.

(T)he diverse range of beliefs, behavior, and experience that we collectively refer to as religion emerge as byproducts of numerous, domain-specific psychological mechanisms that evolved to solve other (mundane) adaptive problems. These include mechanisms for reasoning about the natural world (naive physics and biology), about other people's minds (naive psychology), and about specific kinds of interpersonal relationships (attachment, kinship, social exchange, coalitions, status hierarchies).
Toward an Evolutionary Psychology of Religion and Personality

This is certainly true- these are some of the functions of religions. What is problematic here is that it doesn't get at why religion is better at solving a lot of these adaptive problems than other options, even in modern society. Furthermore, it doesn't get at individual spirituality very well and it posits that the Western scientific assumptions about a materialist universe are correct.

That said, as I'll get to in a bit with discussion on some of the favorite theories about "why religion" in anthropology, this type of explanation is pretty popular.
 
First may I offer my apology for the ridiculous length of time it has taken me to reply to this. My holiday destination this year was a technology free zone and I am only now back online.
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I would say the jury is out on this. I know very well respected biological anthropologists on both sides of the debate. We don't know at this point if H. sapiens interbred with H. neanderthalensis or not.


Since mitochondrial DNA sampling unequivocally points to a common ancestor and not interbreeding I tend to go with that line of thinking. MDNA mutations are regarded as a reliable way to date genetic diversification and are used as the keystone in many other research studies so they remain to me the most reliable indicator of the fact. I do not and of course cannot deny the possibility that there was some interbreeding taking place but if there was it seems to have failed to persist into the modern genetic record.

Do you have some references for this? I'd be really curious, because so far I have not run across any widely accepted evidence for ritual burial predating 100K years ago. There is a difference between ritual burial and burial. Until people add grave goods, we can't even know that their practices implied the type of social concern modern humans have. Plain burial could just be a way to dispose of a body so predators don't come near camp. I hadn't seen any articles on ritual burial (i.e., with grave goods or positioning of the body) before 100K years ago, so I'm very curious.
Before my holiday I looked into this and I have to concede that I can find no burials that include 'grave goods' beyond the dates you state. However the absence of grave goods does not explain why 'graveyards' containing the remains of multiple individuals over a considerable period of time would be practised. This to me suggests a ritualised and systematic burial procedure and it is not hard to imagine that many early communities viewed 'goods' as far to valuable to be buried in the ground. But you are right to pull me up on it. My conjecture was biased to my own thinking on the matter.







This would be an uncommon definition of art. We distinguish between art and tools. Tools indicate some sort of learning/teaching behavior but not the same type of philosophical mind that leads to things like cave paintings and Venus statues. Easy to see a modern human mind behind paintings and statues... harder to see philosophy behind a hand ax.
In this case I care not if it is an uncommon definition. To me, as a person who has made his own tools, I "know" the process to be an artistic one in which aesthetics are as vital as function. Indeed the two are so intricately linked that I would find it very difficult to separate them which indicates to me that the origins of aesthetic reward are as old as the ability to conceive to create. In a species of tool using monkeys in S.America (afraid I cannot recall the exact species) that travel a considerable distance solely to use tools it was demonstrated that particular individuals would repeatedly use the same tool, indicating preference or a nascent aesthetic. I would go as far to say that preference is the mother of all aesthetics and preference is of course common throughout nature. So as soon as our first ancestors began making tools aesthetics in their production were inevitable.



I'd be curious about references. I studied with a leading lithic expert who dealt with hand axes and he said people went to quarry sites where the rock was, made hand axes on the spot, and then left with a finished product. I'm sure people took some stone sometimes for later. I haven't heard about population centers.
From memory I am referring to a site in Croatia and another in the Ethiopian highlands. I will look into it and get back to you.






Language is a strong indicator, but is fraught with difficulties in terms of assigning its origins. There is no way to have clear evidence for language so far, ....
I was under the impression that cranial capacity was a rather good indicator of when the brain had grown sufficiently to form speech.

I will get on and read the rest of this thread now and get back to you later. Again my apology for the delay.

tao
 
First may I offer my apology for the ridiculous length of time it has taken me to reply to this. My holiday destination this year was a technology free zone and I am only now back online.

No problem, Tao! I'm behind after a week of business travel myself.

Since mitochondrial DNA sampling unequivocally points to a common ancestor and not interbreeding I tend to go with that line of thinking.

I'm not a geneticist, so I really can't comment. I know geneticists on both sides, so I figure the jury is out. I don't understand early human genetics well enough to make a firm decision. I guess I'd say I can toss out the basic sides, but I'm in the "Not my area" camp.

However the absence of grave goods does not explain why 'graveyards' containing the remains of multiple individuals over a considerable period of time would be practised.

It could mean something socially, or it could just mean that humans had enough logic to realize that burying the dead in a consistent location, then putting camp far away from it, is best for avoiding scavengers and predators.

No clue how early communities viewed goods (either as valuable or not). My guess is that few people viewed goods (in a general sense) as highly valuable unless they were rare (for example, stone tools from a particular quarry). Most hunter-gatherers do not view their goods as very valuable and give away a lot of stuff. This is because all of it is handmade from readily available local materials and so is easily replaced. Perhaps this is different in past times for certain materials, such as furs being difficult to obtain and valuable due to the cold. We don't really know. We can speculate, but since there is no definitive indication of any sort of hint of religious ritual or afterlife thoughts until grave goods show up, that's sort of the baseline though there are certainly other possibilities.

Personally, I speculate that there was a whole lot going on in the area of religious and philosophical thought, tool-making, and language before the Neanderthals and modern humans, but these are my personal speculations rather than scientifically backed hypotheses.

In this case I care not if it is an uncommon definition. To me, as a person who has made his own tools, I "know" the process to be an artistic one in which aesthetics are as vital as function... I would go as far to say that preference is the mother of all aesthetics and preference is of course common throughout nature. So as soon as our first ancestors began making tools aesthetics in their production were inevitable.

I can appreciate this, and having a husband as a carpenter as well as some experience myself in the aesthetics of function, I agree in theory. However, this doesn't explain why both chimps and humans have both made and used tools for a long time, yet there have been no strong artistic movements coming from any species but humans. The rudimentary elements are there, and apparently the preference (I haven't read that research- the stuff I'd seen with chimps were always one-off tools, so it's news to me) but not the extension into art for art's sake. Similarly, chimps learn language and even create new words, but they don't start into philosophical discourse. So it appears that something is distinctive about the human brain and its tendency for symbols and higher-order thinking.

I was under the impression that cranial capacity was a rather good indicator of when the brain had grown sufficiently to form speech.

Cranial capacity, along with frontal lobe expansion (the real crux of the matter), is a good indicator that symbolic thought is possible. The actual language structures in the brain are impossible to see in the fossil record. It is an issue of cranial capacity expansion being a forerunner of modern language, but not an indicator of it.
 
I'm not a geneticist, so I really can't comment. I know geneticists on both sides, so I figure the jury is out. I don't understand early human genetics well enough to make a firm decision. I guess I'd say I can toss out the basic sides, but I'm in the "Not my area" camp.
Mitochondrial DNA, mtDNA, is unlike nuclear DNA as it is not recombined into new unique combinations. mtDNA actually does recombine and mutate more often than normal DNA but as it does so only with exact copies of itself so it changes very little over 100s of generations. Using this technique of studying genetic changes in the fossil record of ourselves and our ancestors we find that modern humans and Neanderthals were not breeding. Their respective mtDNA is quite distinctly different. To me, given that mtDNA techniques are now a well established and respected forensic tool, this evidence settles the argument for me at least. Unless mtDNA testing is found to be seriously flawed I cant see my opinion on that changing easily.



Personally, I speculate that there was a whole lot going on in the area of religious and philosophical thought, tool-making, and language before the Neanderthals and modern humans, but these are my personal speculations rather than scientifically backed hypotheses.
We get no hypotheses without some speculation first :)



So it appears that something is distinctive about the human brain and its tendency for symbols and higher-order thinking.



Cranial capacity, along with frontal lobe expansion (the real crux of the matter), is a good indicator that symbolic thought is possible. The actual language structures in the brain are impossible to see in the fossil record. It is an issue of cranial capacity expansion being a forerunner of modern language, but not an indicator of it.
As I understand it the contour mapping technique applied to the cranial cavity give an excellent indication of brain development in the anthropological record. Frontal lobes especially I believe have had their evolutionary history established by that technique. If language developed in complexity, which is a reasonable supposition, in tandem with the higher cognitive functions of the frontal lobes then complex and meaningful discussions have been taking place for well in excess of a million years. And it is this idea I see as best fitting the available evidence, that I have read, on this subject. So its my start point.

tao
 
Mitochondrial DNA...

I understand the basics about mtDNA, but I don't think it is so cut and dried or the geneticists wouldn't still be arguing. That's why I'm currently in the "I abstain from a solid position" camp- I know very reputable bio anthropologists that understand genetics much better than me that have reasons for being in the interbreeding camp. The intricacies of all that research is beyond what I can keep up with and peripheral to anything I work on, so it goes in the "non-opinion" bin. You'd be in good company in either "camp."

We get no hypotheses without some speculation first :)

True, but hypotheses need evidence and methodology. Sometimes there just isn't any evidence so stuff never moves out of speculation.

If language developed in complexity, which is a reasonable supposition, in tandem with the higher cognitive functions of the frontal lobes then complex and meaningful discussions have been taking place for well in excess of a million years. And it is this idea I see as best fitting the available evidence, that I have read, on this subject. So its my start point.

tao

What I mean, though, is that it isn't just about operational large frontal lobes. This is why people with strokes in the language centers of the brain can get so frustrated- they still may have higher-order thinking but no way to either express it or to understand others' expressions. The language centers are on the side of the brain and connected by a big bunch of nerves- anything wrong with any element there and language becomes impossible. Either we can't interpret what is said to us, or we can't articulate expression. Plus, to have true, nuanced spoken language, we need changes in our throat structures to allow for this. I'll post more later (maybe with images!) from home when I have access to my image library.

But this is why there is no clear date... it's very hard to map the language centers. The best estimate we can have is when the two hemispheres begin to slightly diverge from each other in size, as far as I understand it from the bio anth people.

Also, I'm not ignoring your post in the other one. I just haven't gotten 'round to the response yet. :)
 
I understand the basics about mtDNA, but I don't think it is so cut and dried or the geneticists wouldn't still be arguing. That's why I'm currently in the "I abstain from a solid position" camp- I know very reputable bio anthropologists that understand genetics much better than me that have reasons for being in the interbreeding camp. The intricacies of all that research is beyond what I can keep up with and peripheral to anything I work on, so it goes in the "non-opinion" bin. You'd be in good company in either "camp."
Differing opinions and competition within science, I would argue, can make it more difficult for the researchers to step back and take a wider view. On another thread in discussion with Juantoo we went into the Neanderthal question in some detail. As a result of the reading I did at that time I noted that not only did my current position seem the most credible but that those with counter claims usually had research grants dependent on their stated positions. This is a problem in science that can easily be overcome by those less worried about funding issues and more about what really makes sense. The non-partisan and curious individual who draws from many fields to put together a coherent and credible picture. That is what I attempt to be. Some things are never provable but make so much sense they take on their own logic. Like looking at a sphere and knowing it would take less energy to roll it than a cube. Sometimes very diverse sources of information collate together in a kind of empirical stature that states, "it could be no other way". It not always scientifically provable but makes too much sense to ignore.




What I mean, though, is that it isn't just about operational large frontal lobes. This is why people with strokes in the language centers of the brain can get so frustrated- they still may have higher-order thinking but no way to either express it or to understand others' expressions. The language centers are on the side of the brain and connected by a big bunch of nerves- anything wrong with any element there and language becomes impossible. Either we can't interpret what is said to us, or we can't articulate expression. Plus, to have true, nuanced spoken language, we need changes in our throat structures to allow for this. I'll post more later (maybe with images!) from home when I have access to my image library.

But this is why there is no clear date... it's very hard to map the language centers. The best estimate we can have is when the two hemispheres begin to slightly diverge from each other in size, as far as I understand it from the bio anth people.
This is a good example of what I say above. There are many ways science can approach the subject of human speech and cognition. Many fields that contribute to a variety of interrelated debates. Many, most of them even, are sciences in their infancy. As I think is true across the scientific spectrum. But to dissect the idea that human speech, cognition and the development of the pre-frontal cortex are or are not interrelated in evolutionary terms is the wrong way to approach it. Instead I would say that it makes so much sense that they all developed together that is the direction we should look in to prove it. Citing 'exceptions' such as illness or brain damage is misleading as to know what happened we need to look at a healthy normal subject. It is the normal healthy subject that passes on the genetic information for development to continue. It can be useful to study the anomalous but I think certainly in the overview of the evolution of our cognitive and speech ability it is pretty irrelevant. Any rational overview could only conclude that they must have developed together and that would mean that people started debating what the nicest colour of primrose was over 1 million years ago.


tao


PS : its yellow of course!!
 
LOL- I agree that science can be influenced by a variety of factors, but I also think the average person (me included) on most specialized subjects is just not well-versed enough in the research to have the answers. You may have read a ton and have the answer, I don't know. I just know that I don't, and I do personally know people whose reputations I trust, who are in the interbreeding camp. So I abstain.

As for language, we needed large frontal lobes for more things than just language. So I sort of see it as the pre-existing condition necessary for a variety of things, each of which was dependent on other changes as well. We do know a number of things must come together to create modern spoken language: the large frontal lobe, the language center (composed of two areas plus a big connector), and changes to the throat structure that allow a greater variety of sounds. Something complex like language just isn't based on a single change in humans. The brain began to really enlarge substantially with H. erectus but we don't see clear evidence of a large frontal lobe (based on a large forehead) until modern humans. Neanderthals had brains bigger than us, but they were sloped toward the back with little forehead, so it is hard to tell if they had similarly sized frontal lobes that were tipped backward, or if they did not. Based on big foreheads, it would put language around the time of early modern humans. Based on the other stuff, we can't tell since it doesn't survive. My guess is that there was increasing symbolism and attempts at language, which put evolutionary pressure in a social environment on favoring larger frontal lobes, despite the obvious evolutionary cost of greater loss of life in childbirth. Similarly, the evolutionary advantage in language must have been huge to favor the changes in the throat structures, because it makes it so much easier for humans to choke.
 
My guess is that there was increasing symbolism and attempts at language, which put evolutionary pressure in a social environment on favoring larger frontal lobes, despite the obvious evolutionary cost of greater loss of life in childbirth. Similarly, the evolutionary advantage in language must have been huge to favor the changes in the throat structures, because it makes it so much easier for humans to choke.
Glen Morton wrote an extensive article addressing some of this, surrounding the evolution and the physical complications that had to be overcome to be able to birth babies with such large heads. Fascinating read, or so I found:

Sweat as part of Adam's curse

Should there be interest, here is a link to a list of some of his other anthropology articles:

DMD Publishing Co.
 
Here's some more info on language and symbolic thought...

If anything contradicts what I said earlier, this is the stuff that is backed by my notes. Early humans ain't my specialty, so I pulled out more notes to be sure everything is clear and consistent.

Modern, symbolic spoken language relies on a number of physiological changes: the development of the frontal lobe, the connection between Wernicke's and Broca's areas in the brain, and changes to the vocal tract to allow a greater diversity and nuance of sound.

What we notice is different between the apes and us is:

* They have a higher vocal tract, which limits their capacity for nuanced sound.

apevshumanVLtract.png


* They do not have much of a forehead and we have a huge one (50% of our face is forehead, believe it or not). This is to house our gigantic frontal lobe, unique among animals.
* They do not have the connection in the brain between Wernicke's and Broca's areas, making them incapable of complex spoken language. We are the only animals (proven so far) to have this connection.

This is Broca's Area:

brocasarea.jpg


It is in the left frontal lobe and is necessary for organizing complex information and translating this to the part of the brain that controls the muscles for speech. Spoken language is really a very complex and nuanced endeavor for the body. If Broca's area is damaged by something like a stroke, a person cannot translate their thoughts into speech.

This is Wernicke's Area:

wernickesarea.png


It is in the left temporal lobe and is necessary for translating sound into thought. If it is damaged, a person cannot understand what others are saying, even though they can hear the sounds perfectly well.

Humans are the only animals we've found so far that have a connection between the two areas, making the entire brain function as a whole to allow for complex spoken language:

areasofbrain.png
 
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