Questions on the Garden of Eden, human chauvanism

I think it's very simple. If you don't find the Zohar to be inspirational to you, that's okay. But I'm not sure what you hope to gain, or in what way it is helpful in the least to emphasize this fact. In the context of a discussion, I think I have plenty to contribute by bringing up the inspiration that I have found by the words of the Great Teachers who taught us through this vehicle.

For those who find their inspiration, values and guidance elsewhere, that is fine. Reading the Zohar is something that any of us is free to do, and thank God for that. You try and put a restriction on that, tell me I can't read it, or if you say I should not read it, then is there a GOOD reason for your advice? Yes, I do have a beef with anyone who tells me what I can and can't, or even should and should not read.

Now we get to the meat of it, the heart of the matter. Apple meat even ... this being a fruit. The kingdoms themselves even have something to tell us, much to tell us about Evolution, the process by which God's very Breath becomes ... ah well, the quote said it all, thousands of years before I, or any of us, even existed. :eek:

The breath, in time, becomes a wo/man.

Stones, followed by -- Fruit. Fruit, symbolizing through the story, knowledge of good and evil ... the ability (RESPONS-ability even) to distinguish, to choose. And we do this every day, all day, throughout and within, EVERY single thought we think, or motivation we act on, and in or during action itself.

Relative to the Zohar quote, I am asking the question -- Where do Adam & Even fit into all of this? Where, who, and or what were they when they existed as a Breath? How does that relate to their experience as stone, planet, animal and finally man?

And to come back to the real point I was hoping to make -- we are not the crown of creation, even upon the physical planet. Just because we cannot SEE the orders of Angels, and evolved humans whom and which constitute the last two kingdoms mentioned by this quote, doesn't mean that those kingdoms aren't quite active within our world. They'd better be, or you can stop talking about Angels -- whether you see them through the bright shiny lenses of a Catholic, a Protestant, a Jehovah's Witness or a Hindu.

Forget it. Either this quote speaks Wisdom, and that's regardless of what your church has to say about it ... or it doesn't. But I think it's worth THINKING about, instead of blurting out quick retorts that only reveal our unwillingness to consider other viewpoints -- or the experiences, backgrounds, and writings that inspire them.

I don't take kindly to being called an ass-wipe, but I have certainly been taught to look the other way. I wonder, how did you decide in your process of living that it was perfectly acceptable to "dish this stuff out," just because you feel a bit challenged, Dogbrain?

I'm glad that an eye for an eye works for you. Want to let me in on the secret of how this is following Christ's Word, Teachings or living example? :eek:

Some things need saying. And I have a point to make. Part of my point is precisely what you yourself said in an earlier post, Dogbrain. You emphasized that our responsibility here is as stewards, and that this Biblical teaching is not quite interpreted right when it is usually referenced. I am in agreement.

Why aren't we focusing on that, and on parts of the discussion that can only come after there is some kind of a mutal nod. Is it really so important to win a battle of words? Prove to me your superiority, by demonstrating it. I know how to look the other way. I just don't know what to say to person who say, "Oh I can't consider what you've just said because I'm not allowed to."

Fine. Then don't. But just pay no attention then. Why must you feel the need to make a big deal about it?

No, Dogbrain. I am not an ass-wipe. You can apologize for that. Then I think we could probably be a part of a meaningful discussion together.

Until then, you have put me on guard. ;)

Namaskar,

Andrew
 
AndrewX said:
And to come back to the real point I was hoping to make -- we are not the crown of creation, even upon the physical planet. Just because we cannot SEE the orders of Angels, and evolved humans whom and which constitute the last two kingdoms mentioned by this quote, doesn't mean that those kingdoms aren't quite active within our world. They'd better be, or you can stop talking about Angels -- whether you see them through the bright shiny lenses of a Catholic, a Protestant, a Jehovah's Witness or a Hindu.
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er, through the bright shiny lenses of a jew, angels are not in fact "superior" to humans, or the "crown of creation" as they lack free will. and as much as i am hardly expert in zohar, i don't think it really agrees with you on that one.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
AndrewX said:
No, Dogbrain. I am not an ass-wipe. You can apologize for that. Then I think we could probably be a part of a meaningful discussion together.
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I apologize for stooping to such language. You have apologized for the insult you threw at me, when?

Or is it that your insults have special status and you don't ever have to apologize for them. Does it work that if you take offense at what someone else writes, it's their fault, but if someone else takes offense at what you write, it's still their fault?

That seems to be the attitude I have found most common among people who like to pretend to "sophistication". Disabuse me of this notion.
 
Alex P said:
I now recall briefly touching on that before now... Oh and we touched on yetzer ha'ra... One last thing I wanted to ask, all jews believe this? Or only certain groups?
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The Zohar is not a normative document for the majority of Judaism.
 
the y-h-r is a concept that is widely discussed in the talmud, so it's pretty normative. its personalisation, however, is another matter.

as for whether the Zohar is normative or not, that could be quite effectively argued. i have never been in an orthodox or ultra-orthodox synagogue where the Zohar was not one of the texts from which passages were included in the service. that is pretty normative in my book. if you're talking about whether it's normative in conservative or reform, certainly there are customs that are observed that are zoharic or at any rate kabbalistic in origin, like the seven circuits at a wedding. moreover, if one considers the Torah to be "redacted", it is hard to argue that it is fundamentally dissimilar to the Zohar as a text; the difference is rather one of degree.

b'shalom

bananabrain
 
bananabrain said:
the y-h-r is a concept that is widely discussed in the talmud, so it's pretty normative. its personalisation, however, is another matter.

as for whether the Zohar is normative or not, that could be quite effectively argued. i have never been in an orthodox or ultra-orthodox synagogue where the Zohar was not one of the texts from which passages were included in the service. that is pretty normative in my book. if you're talking about whether it's normative in conservative or reform, certainly there are customs that are observed that are zoharic or at any rate kabbalistic in origin, like the seven circuits at a wedding. moreover, if one considers the Torah to be "redacted", it is hard to argue that it is fundamentally dissimilar to the Zohar as a text; the difference is rather one of degree.

b'shalom

bananabrain
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a dank :)
 
bananabrain said:
er, through the bright shiny lenses of a jew, angels are not in fact "superior" to humans, or the "crown of creation" as they lack free will. and as much as i am hardly expert in zohar, i don't think it really agrees with you on that one.

b'shalom

bananabrain
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bananabrain, in the order of progression of the teaching I quoted, evolutionary stature, as well as a definite sequence, is being indicated. I find it a great Blessing and most excellent boon that the Ancients have spoken to us plainly enough, so that we do not need to play an endless guessing game when it comes to certain questions ... such as this one.

The Deva Kingdom, as it is known in the East, or the Angelic Kingdom, as a Judeo-Christian or Western audience will find more familiar, consists of many hierarchies of lives ... or rather, of ONE Hierarchy, but of graded steps of evolutionary stature, or attainment. There are even two great hierarchies, in one sense, which gives us the inverted triangle, symbolizing involutionary lives (or kingdoms of lives), and there is the upright triangle, showing Divinity emerging from its involvement with lowest matter -- wherein Spirit as a Principle (or highest mode of Being) triumphs.

The Deva-lives of our planet can truly be said to co-occupy or co-inhabit, and also to co-ensoul this wonderful blue-green planet of ours. From the very tiny nature-spirits that literally build the forms of grasses, flowers and trees, to the more evolved devas which stand arm in arm, spiritually speaking, as our equals, there is as vast a Deva Hierarchy here around and among us as there is variation of what we call lifeforms ... in the kingdoms from stone, planet, animal to man. Even mankind, though we are learning to understand ourselves as ONE great Family, or Brotherhood, has its variation from nation to nation, continent to continet and from age to age.

If you wish to be quite particular, and speak of some particular Order of Devas occupying a position greater than Humanity does, on Jacob's Ladder of Life (the Great Chain of Being) ... then we can still center this exploration around what relationship a particular order of Angels might have, or have had to Adam, in the Garden of Eden.

I think our confusion will disappear if you clarify, bananabrain, that indeed, some orders of devas, or angels, are our younger brothers, just as animals are. Others are our kindred spirits, in the same sense in which the Saudis, the Russians, the Chinese or the New Zealanders are most obviously our kindred spirits.

The Zohar, in this case, is clearly pointing out that from the stage of mankind, with man or woman being the body of expression for the ensouling Breath (Monad, or Divine Spark) ... two definite, marked Kingdoms naturally follow. These Kingdoms do not all evolve in a strictly linear fashion, just as it has been pointed out many times in esoteric teachings that the idea of Atlantis, Lemuria and prior phases of human development did not simply come and go ... as historical epochs and nothing more.

Humanity can now be viewed, esoterically and in the present, as consisting of a majority of individuals who might be seen as Atlantean in their focus, another large and growing group who are more Aryan in their focus ... a third and final group, diminishing in numbers, who are more Lemurian. If you don't understand these terms, or what they suggest, then please -- just ask.

As we look around, we see stones, plants, animals and humanity, men and women, but interestingly enough, we don't seem to see spirits and gods. Unless, that is, you look through the lens of mythology(ies), and those of philosophy, religion, science. A trained clairvoyant is be able to experience directly many worlds that remain unopened, unexplored, unknown and even unsuspected by ourselves ... limited as we are to five ordinary senses, and focused largely within the material worlds -- even the densest portion of the densest of these!

I don't see as the seer, yet I can see spirits, and gods. I can see plurality, and I can see non-duality. I have the distinct and unequivocal conviction that Jacob, were he here to share his take on the matter word by word ... would clarify as best as he was humanly able -- that indeed, the Ladder of Life has many rungs ahead, or above us, as we climb ... and that PLENTY (from PLENUM, also PLEROMA) of those who occupy these higher rungs are, or were, human, and that many are, or were deva (angel).

I hope that when the ambassadors from other evolutions, even those within our own system, are finally able to approach our Humanity in the Light (something not possible currently, because the latter does not yet prevail) ... I hope that we are not so determined to tell them how superior we are, as we watch their discs land, without propulsion, and as we finally realize and start to accept how fortunate we are -- warily at first, but then with the growing feeling of shame and remorse at our foolishness, for how we have treated ... each other, other humanities and even the co-occupants of our own, precious globe.

Perhaps we can ask such visitors about their Adams, and learn how the great Universal Motion has directed Evolution on other planets, other Systems ... and see where our paths overlap.

Doing this on a smaller scale, seeing where our paths overlap, may one day show us how true it is that we have a common root, ancestor or collective past ... as well as a shared and wonderful Destiny. :)

Peace
 
Getting back to the OP and the progressing discussion, here is something that I just came across serendipitously:
The mythos relates that Zagreus, a favored son of Zeus, aroused the wrath of Hera, who plotted his destruction. First she released the dethroned titans from Tartaros to slay the newborn babe. They induced the child to give up the scepter and apple for the false toys which they held before him: a thyrsos or Bacchic wand (symbol of matter and rebirth into material life), a giddy spinning top, and a mirror (maya or illusion). As the child was gazing at himself in the mirror, they seized him, tore his body into seven or fourteen pieces (as in the Egyptian Mystery tale of Osiris); boiled and roasted and then devoured them. Discovered in this enormity by Zeus, the titans were blasted with his thunderbolt and from their ashes sprang the human race.

The titans with their false gifts symbolize the pursuing energies of the personal, material life, which enchain and delude the soul. They are earth powers which lead the soul from the path by the lure of things of sense. The dismembered body is first boiled in water -- symbol of the astral world; then roasted, "as gold is tried by fire," symbol of suffering and purification and the reascent of the victorious soul to bliss.

-- Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary, G. de Purucker, Editor-in-Chief

​
Kinda neat, eh? ;)
 
StarshipEnterprise said:
This is mostly directed a christians, since I am not very familiar with what Islam and Judaism have to say about these issues, but feedback from any of the above would be nice.

In the story of the garden of Eden, God forbids Adam and eve from eating the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, saying that they will surely die if they do. The serpent then tempts eve and says they can be like God by knowing good and evil if they eat the fruit, and that they will not surely die. They proceed to eat the fruit condemning the human race to sin for all time.


what do you think?
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It's a multi-folded prophecy, if you can relate the apple on the Tree which dropped on the head of Isaac Newton, thou at the same time it's historical event which can be taken literally.
 
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