Origins of Jesus Christ

Divos said:
Jesus claims to be Son of David, Abraham, GOD, Adam, therefor automatically makes him Divine
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In the Hebrew Bible, all men are "sons of God." Funny how capitalizing a word can change the implied meaning! And, still in the Hebrew Bible, being a descendant of Adam, Abraham, or David makes no one divine, nor would it do so in the LXX version.

Perhaps you should re-examine the context for your Jesus claims . . . and when using documents as basis for an argument, specific citations do help (if you can find any in which Jesus, rather than his followers, made such claims).
 
mens_sana said:
In the Hebrew Bible, all men are "sons of God." Funny how capitalizing a word can change the implied meaning! And, still in the Hebrew Bible, being a descendant of Adam, Abraham, or David makes no one divine, nor would it do so in the LXX version.

Perhaps you should re-examine the context for your Jesus claims . . . and when using documents as basis for an argument, specific citations do help (if you can find any in which Jesus, rather than his followers, made such claims).
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ALL MEN are "Sons of God" , therefor, they are GODS themselves, its called a Pantheon

Its the same as "Heracles(MAN), son of Zeus(GOD) " , whom performed Miracles.

What makes "Jesus" more true then "Heracles"
 
Divos said:
ALL MEN are "Sons of God" , therefor, they are GODS themselves, its called a Pantheon

Its the same as "Heracles(MAN), son of Zeus(GOD) " , whom performed Miracles.

What makes "Jesus" more true then "Heracles"
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Again, you ignore context. Jesus' context is the Hebrew Bible. And you again capitalize "sons", which changes the meaning. A "son of God" in Jewish context is not divine. Moreover, you use mythological claims about Jesus, claims by later followers, to debunk a historical Jesus — on its face, an apples and oranges argument.

There are mythological stories about Gilgamesh, but many historians think he was a real king of Uruk. There are miraculous stories attached to Apollonius of Tyana, but he is thought to have been a historical person. Homer's Iliad is mythic accretion to a real war between ancient Greece and Troy.

What other people thought about Jesus need not be the same as what Jesus thought about himself. And just because you think Jesus and Heracles are both fictions does not make it so, at least not without a lot more work than the superficial arguments you have so far offered.
 
Divos said:
Josephus' Gospels is mythic accretion to a real war between Rome and Jerusalem
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Josephus's Antiquities is NOT a gospel. You're merely circulating deliberate misinformation for propaganda purposes. Shame on you.

Josephus wasn't even a Christian believer, and in fact, the description of James as Jesus's brother (in Antiqs. XX) doesn't even tally with Christian scriptural accounts of James, because of Antiqs. XX's linking James's fate with Ananus in Jerusalem, which no scriptural text does. Plainly, the writer of Antiqs. XX isn't even applying Christian lore when the account of Ananus and James is linked up with Jesus's brother! How come blatantly non-Christian sourcing links up Ananus with Jesus's brother James? Might it just be that Jesus was already known by contemporary non-believers as having had a family, and that Josephus, being a contemporary of James and a resident of Jerusalem, is simply giving us what he knew from first-hand experience as a non-Christian? Duh.

You know, you mythers are really pathetic.

No cheers,

Operacast
 
There was no Religion called Christianity THEN, just JEWS and ROMANS

Josephus's Antiquities WROTE the gospel (Very Likely Candidates, hugh Jewish Knowledge, can write in greek), he documented the Jewish-Roman War, that are mirrored in the Gospels

Josephus Bar Matthias (matthiah = maccabees)
Joseph___Arimathea
Joseph (FATHER of Jesus)
St Joseph

Matthias (Matthew) and most of the Gospels names are to be found upon this tree
ensignlp.nfo:o:1dc8.jpg


70AD
b5821.jpg

SEE THE CROSS - THAT IS THE CRUCIFIXION, 'JUDEA' WAS CRUCIFIED (Full Roman Control) (kingdom of god = Emperor of CAESAR)
 
Divos said:
There was no Religion called Christianity THEN, just JEWS and ROMANS

Josephus's Antiquities WROTE the gospel
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Oh? How come no scriptural account of James tallies with the Josephan account of Ananus and James?

Operacast
 
Divos said:
Josephus Bar Matthias (matthiah = maccabees)
Joseph___Arimathea
Joseph (FATHER of Jesus)
St Joseph

Matthias (Matthew) and most of the Gospels names are to be found upon this tree
I see a names list and a family tree. I see nothing that says the names on the family tree are unique to any specific family — and no connection between Josephus bar Matthias and St Joseph, other than typographic proximity.

By the way, if you check around a bit in the area of common Roman funerary associations or in Levantine funerary practices, you will find that none of the ancestors were considered other than ordinary spirit inhabitants of the appropriate netherworld.
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(matthiah = maccabees)
Joseph___Arimathea
Joseph (FATHER of Jesus)
St Joseph

Matthias (Matthew) and most of the Gospels names are to be found upon this tree

I see a names list and a family tree. I see nothing that says the names on the family tree are unique to any specific family — and no connection between Josephus bar Matthias and St Joseph, other than typographic proximity.

By the way, if you check around a bit in the area of common Roman funerary associations or in Levantine funerary practices, you will find that none of the ancestors were considered other than ordinary spirit inhabitants of the appropriate netherworld.
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The Romans where very good at naming people, and rarely with just a Single name

Justin Matyr - No Father/No Sons/No Family name
---(Theories suggest he was Justus, Son of Josephus)
Fact or Bullshit ??

Flavius Justus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The must understand the concept of a "Pen_Name"


The Other confusing thing, is that Josephus was a JEW, and TITUS FLAVIUS Vespasian attacked, murdered hundreds of Jews, and destroyed herods temple.


Then Josephus, goes to ROME, acquired ROYAL names, and calls himself TITUS FLAVIUS Josephus, he sided with the Enemy???, and then years later, Christianity magically appeared, the entire thing looks very ODD
 
You could really benefit from a bit of Googling. Roman naming practice: praenomen (given name), nomen (name of the gens or clan) and cognomen (name of a family line within the gens).

That Justin (Martyr) was known as just Justin says only that he was not a citizen of Rome, nothing more, nothing less.

The Flavian family were Flavians before they became royal. Josephus took their name because he was under their patronage. Nothing strange or out of the ordinary.

You are finding "causation" in "coincidence" and in "correlation." I can hardly wait to find out how the "DaVinci Code" fits in.
 
Divos said:
The Other confusing thing, is that Josephus was a JEW, and TITUS FLAVIUS Vespasian attacked, murdered hundreds of Jews, and destroyed herods temple.

Then Josephus, goes to ROME, acquired ROYAL names, and calls himself TITUS FLAVIUS Josephus, he sided with the Enemy???, and then years later, Christianity magically appeared, the entire thing looks very ODD
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How come no scriptural account of James tallies with the Josephan account of Ananus and James?
​

Operacast
 
mens_sana said:
You could really benefit from a bit of Googling. Roman naming practice: praenomen (given name), nomen (name of the gens or clan) and cognomen (name of a family line within the gens).

That Justin (Martyr) was known as just Justin says only that he was not a citizen of Rome, nothing more, nothing less.

The Flavian family were Flavians before they became royal. Josephus took their name because he was under their patronage. Nothing strange or out of the ordinary.

You are finding "causation" in "coincidence" and in "correlation." I can hardly wait to find out how the "DaVinci Code" fits in.
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Justin was born in Flavia Neapolis, theoretically he could of being named Flavius Justin

Titus Flavius Justus (Greek: Τίτος Θλάβιος Ίούστος, flourished second half of the 1st century & first half of the 2nd century, born 76) was an aristocratic, wealthy Roman Jew.


Then another Justus . Justus of Tiberias

Fourished second half of the 1st century & first half of the 2nd century, born 76)

Flavius Justus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Justus of Tiberias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Justin Martyr - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jesus Justus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is another called "Fabius Justus*
The letters of Pliny the Consul with ... - Gai Plini Cecili Segon - Google Books

another called "Justus Calpernius Piso"
Justus Calpernius Calpernius (Piso) (b. - 117) - Genealogy

Then there is some biblical Justus :) Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus)
In the Christian New Testament, Joseph Justus (also known as Barsabbas)
---Barsabbas = Son of Saba (Jo-SEBA) (joseph) (josehpus)

Justin - Name of early saints, Latin Iustinus, a derivative of Iustus, from iustus (“just”).

another
Jesus Justus or Iesous ho legomenos Ioustos (in Greek) is referred to by the Apostle Paul of Tarsus in Colossians 4:11

another
Justus is recorded as a member of the group of three Yahudis which included Paul's fellow prisoner Aristarchus, Mark (the cousin of Barnabas) and Justus.

Barabbas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Barabbas or Jesus Barabbas (son of the father and Jesus, son of the father respectively)


Acts 18:7
And he departed there, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

3) A Jew, Jesus Justus, mentioned with Mark and Aristarchus by Paul in his letters to the Colossians (Colossians 4:11), is a fellow-worker and one that had been a comfort unto him.

Corinth
... into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that ... necessary to strengthen and fortify
the believer for the ... Paul's efforts in Corinth were not without fruit. .

Ant 20
Justus, the son of Pistus, seized for the Jews, upon the breaking out of the war.



Acts 1:23
And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
WTF Justus = Matthias = Joseph = Barsabas = Jesus = Justin = Tiberius = Flavia = Titus




Is this a Typo or Something ????
 
Operacast said:
How come no scriptural account of James tallies with the Josephan account of Ananus and James?
​

Operacast
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Ananus and James where JEWISH PRIESTS, them of all people would have acknowledged Jesus, remember Josephus is a Deceiver, he sided with the Enemy whom destroyed the Temple, HE IS SATAN the DECEIVER

Gk. Satanas, from Heb. satan "adversary, one who plots against another, ,Hebrew name for Satan meaning “Destruction”. ... that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world.
 
Divos said:
Ananus and James where JEWISH PRIESTS, them of all people would have acknowledged Jesus, remember Josephus is a Deceiver, he sided with the Enemy whom destroyed the Temple, HE IS SATAN the DECEIVER

Gk. Satanas, from Heb. satan "adversary, one who plots against another, ,Hebrew name for Satan meaning “Destruction”. ... that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world.
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Your response shows you are clueless as to the content of Josephus's account of James and Ananus.

You first say that Josephus inspired the gospels(!). But then, when I point out that Jos's account of James and Ananus in Antiquities 20 has no parallel anywhere in scripture, you respond with ...... this! This has no bearing on the total lack of any parallel in scripture.

Tell me: What does Josephus say about James and Ananus in Antiquities 20? Do you even know?

Operacast
 
Operacast said:
Your response shows you are clueless as to the content of Josephus's account of James and Ananus.

You first say that Josephus inspired the gospels(!). But then, when I point out that Jos's account of James and Ananus in Antiquities 20 has no parallel anywhere in scripture, you respond with ...... this! This has no bearing on the total lack of any parallel in scripture.

Tell me: What does Josephus say about James and Ananus in Antiquities 20? Do you even know?

Operacast
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Thanks, i found another Justus

Ant 20
Justus, the son of Pistus, seized for the Jews, upon the breaking out of the war.

[Annas, or] Ananus, the son of Seth.
Eleazar, the son of Ananus.
Josephus Caiaphas, the son-in-law to Ananus
Theophilus, his brother, and son of Ananus.
Matthias, the brother of Jonathan, and son of Ananus.
Ananus, the son of Artanus.

This Ananias was not the son of Nebedeus, as I take it, but he who was called Annas or Ananus the elder, the ninth in the catalogue, and who had been esteemed high priest for a long time; and, besides Caiaphas, his son-in-law, had five of his own sons high priests after him, which were those of numbers 11, 14, 15, 17, 24, in the foregoing catalogue. Nor ought we to pass slightly over what Josephus here says of Annas, or Ananias, that he was high priest a long time before his children were so; he was the son of Seth, and is set down first for high priest in the foregoing catalogue, under number 9. He was made by Quirinus, and continued till Ismael, the 10th in number, for about twenty-three years, which long duration of his high priesthood, joined to the successions of his son-in-law, and five children of his own, made him a sort of perpetual high priest, and was perhaps the occasion that former high priests kept their titles ever afterwards; for I believe it is hardly met with be fore him.

The question one might as. where does Flavius Josephus fit into all of this ??

The Jewish War is what fits with Gospels
 
Divos said:
Thanks, i found another Justus

Ant 20
Justus, the son of Pistus, seized for the Jews, upon the breaking out of the war.

[Annas, or] Ananus, the son of Seth.
Eleazar, the son of Ananus.
Josephus Caiaphas, the son-in-law to Ananus
Theophilus, his brother, and son of Ananus.
Matthias, the brother of Jonathan, and son of Ananus.
Ananus, the son of Artanus.

This Ananias was not the son of Nebedeus, as I take it, but he who was called Annas or Ananus the elder, the ninth in the catalogue, and who had been esteemed high priest for a long time; and, besides Caiaphas, his son-in-law, had five of his own sons high priests after him, which were those of numbers 11, 14, 15, 17, 24, in the foregoing catalogue. Nor ought we to pass slightly over what Josephus here says of Annas, or Ananias, that he was high priest a long time before his children were so; he was the son of Seth, and is set down first for high priest in the foregoing catalogue, under number 9. He was made by Quirinus, and continued till Ismael, the 10th in number, for about twenty-three years, which long duration of his high priesthood, joined to the successions of his son-in-law, and five children of his own, made him a sort of perpetual high priest, and was perhaps the occasion that former high priests kept their titles ever afterwards; for I believe it is hardly met with be fore him.

The question one might as. where does Flavius Josephus fit into all of this ??

The Jewish War is what fits with Gospels
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You do not reference here one solitary mention of James by Josephus. You're just wasting our time. You obviously have no clue what I'm talking about. Why am I not surprised?

Operacast
 
Operacast said:
You do not reference here one solitary mention of James by Josephus. You're just wasting our time. You obviously have no clue what I'm talking about. Why am I not surprised?

Operacast
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Wait, is James not the same as Jacob

Sometime back, I noticed as I played around in the Greek New Testament, that the book of James was missing in the Greek. James was called "Jacobus" which is the Greek form of the Hebrew "Iacob" which should come into the English as "Jacob." In the Old Testament "Iacob" was translated "Jacob." The question arose in my mind. Why didn't the translators stay consistent and translate "Iacobus" as "Jacob." How did this word "James" get into the Bible?
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looks like King James inserted himself, naughty bastard
 
Divos said:
Wait, is James not the same as Jacob
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You really are a piece of work. Nowhere in your previous do you show me any Josephan reference to a Jacob, let alone a James. You're just throwing up dust like all mythers.

You really don't have a clue about the Ananus/James passage in Josephus. It's obvious.

STOP WASTING MY TIME. I won't be responding to you again unless/until you address the Ananus/ James passage in Josephus directly and also its total dissimilarity to anything in scripture.

Operacast
 
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