The Resurrection: A Re-evaluation

[Dondi]

I don't think that diversity in NDE experiences means they aren't experiencing something real. Again, that is the same argument that atheists use to dismiss religious experience of God. I just find it odd to use the same basic arguments others use against spiritual experience on NDE and past life experience.

What you are saying here, then, is that there is more than one 'Truth' or one 'Reality'. I don't want to sound dogmatic in this, nor am I trying to limit what God can do, but to avoid confusion, wouldn't God reveal Himself in one modus operandi? I'm not saying that God cannot operate within different religions, at least here on earth, but one would think that all that would be cleared up via a visit to 'heaven'.

Your story of the woman is pretty fascinating and worth noting on this discussion. However, what I meant by 'resuscitated' (and perhaps that isn't the most correct word) is that there is a certain period of time after the heart stops and brain activity ceases when the body will by no be 'viable' as to support life. I think this is what is known as the 'silver chord' snapping. In this lady's case, she didn't apparently progress to that point.

Now had she been in the morgue for a day or two, and her body found decay, and THEN revived, THAT would be something.

But lets discuss the 'silver chord' for a moment, taken from a passage in Ecclesiates 12:6-7

"Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."

Here, once the silver chord is loosed, the body returns to dust and the spirit is returned to God. Now is it possible that by saying the spirit returns to God that we necessarily will be aware of that fact. What if God keeps our memory and thoughts and everything until we are resurrected (for our life came from God, yet we are unaware of the time before we are born)? Sorta like uploading a program on disk to be downloaded later on. We might have no awareness that we are dead or of anything.

Once the Resurrection occurs, we all rise at the same time, everyone all down through history will wake up at the same moment. But we would have no sense of the passage of time. Wouldn't that be weird if Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther, Socrates, Adam, and Buddha all woke at the same time? From there perspective, they are still in there time, for that is when they left it. And how about us? We could wake up in the distant future, should the Lord tarry.

One advantage of this 'soul sleep' is that you won't have to wonder where your loved ones are. 'Cause they are still in the grave awaiting to be resurrected. They may not be in heaven yet, but they aren't in hell suffering either, at least not yet. I mean, if there is a hell, and it was a form of punishment, then it would be rather unfair for those who have died 3000 years ago to be cooking in there when someone who just died the day before the Resurresction hadn't spent any time at all.

We would all be judged together. He would divide the sheep and the goats at the same time at His coming.

ETA: FYI, I haven't bought into the idea of soul sleep, I'm just exploring the possibilities, just like anything else, trying to keep an open mind.

 

[earl]

There does seem to be a fair bit of commonality in NDE's despite a person's belief system, though I tend to think some of the process and/or content of the experience is shaped by the "level" of consciousness of the experiencer-sort of like the Tibetan Buddhist teachings about the bardo of dying and the experiences-positive and negative-being related to one's mind states. Found it somewhat surprising (and admittedly amusing) that the fellow who operates a website devoted to NDE's- Web Site Being Remodeled (gee I hope this site returns-it was quite interesting)
had compiled accounts of NDE's and the only folk that described having had "hellish" ones were self-described Christian folk. Earl

I should add that his site also noted that the vast bulk of such experiences were fully positive.

 

[Dondi]

Most of the accounts that I have read about NDEs are on this website:

Near Death Experiences and the Afterlife

 

[earl]

Oh thanks Dondi! That was actually the site I meant-my earlier was a typical typo of mine. I had left out the hyphen, so different site. This is a fascinating site that really is NDE central looking at all stuff "NDE." As to whether there's any "demonic" trickery in the positive NDE experiences, given that so many experiencers have come back from the experiences much more loving, if it's "demonic" then maybe them little buggers are doing God's work afterall. Earl

 

[path_of_one]

What you are saying here, then, is that there is more than one 'Truth' or one 'Reality'.

One Truth, no Reality. Truth is reunion with God. Spirit returning to Spirit. How a consciousness may experience that might vary. It may be that it is dependent on how much we've done to open ourselves to the revelation of God.

I'm not sure how to explain it. I guess I would say it is dependent on our perspective. Sort of like that movie "What Dreams May Come."

I don't want to sound dogmatic in this, nor am I trying to limit what God can do, but to avoid confusion, wouldn't God reveal Himself in one modus operandi?

Why would he? Why would it be different from how He reveals Himself variously to people here on earth?

That said, there is a surprising uniformity in NDEs from all over the world. Many, many people say that they experience a pure Light and a supremely ecstatic feeling of Love. That seems pretty Biblical to me. It seems to be the core of NDE, statistically speaking. That and reunion with loved ones.

That said, I think God is probably a pretty complex and incomprehensible being, even if we are dead. Personally, I don't expect to ever understand God in His entirety. Too big. I just hope for reunion.

I think this is what is known as the 'silver chord' snapping. In this lady's case, she didn't apparently progress to that point.

I kind of get what you mean. I avoid that concept though, because it isn't medically measurable. It's an idea, not a scientifically measurable indicator. Additionally, people have said that the silver cord can break while a body is still alive, allowing another soul/spirit to inhabit the body. Since it's in the realm of concepts, it's impossible to say- it's all the realm of belief. In terms of NDE, I'm interested in the medical measurement of death and what people who make it past this point have to say about their subjective experience. It's not perfect in terms of ideal data, but it's all we've got.

Now had she been in the morgue for a day or two, and her body found decay, and THEN revived, THAT would be something.

There was a guest speaker at a Calvary Chapel that claimed to be in the morgue over 24 hours and revive. He had a very long and detailed NDE story. I don't necessarily buy it, unless perhaps he was accidentally poisoned with puffer fish, which will cause a state of coma so close to death that even modern medicine struggles to tell the difference. But this usually produces a great deal of brain damage due to limited oxygen.

Here, once the silver chord is loosed, the body returns to dust and the spirit is returned to God. Now is it possible that by saying the spirit returns to God that we necessarily will be aware of that fact. What if God keeps our memory and thoughts and everything until we are resurrected (for our life came from God, yet we are unaware of the time before we are born)? Sorta like uploading a program on disk to be downloaded later on. We might have no awareness that we are dead or of anything.

It's possible, but not exactly a straight forward reading of that passage, is it? So far as I can tell, the Bible is sort of contradictory on the after life. If I understand Jewish ideas correctly, that's because it's more about how to live your now than what happens when you die. I think that's a good thing. I think it means we should trust God and be good and all that because that's what we should do, rather than focusing on reward or punishment.

I figure I should trust God. Once I'm dead, whatever happens, I won't know any different so it's all speculation anyway.

I will say that the one OBE I had where I felt like I really experienced the closest thing to heaven, I had no thought whatsoever of anything but the experience. I was in such a moment of "now-ness" that I didn't have any thoughts of the past or future at all, nor did I wonder where other people were, or think to ask any questions, or anything like that at all. I was just pretty much grooving on the love and unity, and the oddness of having no body and being able to disintegrate into things, and how the whole thing was like being pixels in a hologram.

All that said, I feel like I have past life memories. It was strong enough that I couldn't logically think I only get one life and then heaven. At first, that made me depressed. I was kind of tired of the struggle of life and I wanted to just get to heaven one day and never have to really do anything or struggle or learn or feel bad stuff again. Then I really felt the Spirit ask me "Do you want what you want, or what I give you?" I realized that I was attached to the idea of heaven and resurrection and one life because I was being lazy and didn't feel like doing the work of living. After that, I sort of grew into acceptance and then joy in being incarnated, even if I am limited and imperfect and the world kind of sucks at times. I became willing to do whatever God wants of me after this life. If heaven, yay. If more of the same, that's OK.

Now, I don't know if at some future time, I'll be resurrected with loads of other people. I don't know if I go 'round and 'round while some other people sleep. I don't think either one is worse, and I don't think sleeping is a bad deal. I love sleeping. It's one of my favorite activities. But given my own experience, I can't buy into the one life then sleep then resurrection model. It's a fine model, and I figure that may well be the case for some other people.

One advantage of this 'soul sleep' is that you won't have to wonder where your loved ones are.

I would imagine that heaven would either be so great we totally forget who we thought we were and aren't concerned with earthly relationships (kind of like my OBE) or that we'd know where everyone is. But who knows?

I mean, if there is a hell, and it was a form of punishment, then it would be rather unfair for those who have died 3000 years ago to be cooking in there when someone who just died the day before the Resurresction hadn't spent any time at all.

LOL- that's true, if you believe in hell. I don't believe in a literal hell, but rather I believe being separated from God is hell. We're there until we choose to leave. But yeah, if God puts people in some literal fire, it's pretty harsh treatment for the poor guy who was the first to get thrown in there.

 

[earl]

Since Path shared some personal tales, I'll share 1 myself. I've never encountered any "unusual" experiences myself. But my first wife who died 25 years ago of a congenital disease, Fanconi's Anemia, most certainly did. She suffered much illness in her 28 years of life. When she was hospitalized for the last time-for several months-she came close to death once prior to her death. When she was revived she told me that her long dead mother visited her and they discussed many things. When she first appeared my wife had heard just enough about this sort of thing, (though was raised a conventional Catholic), to assume it was her time to go. Howver she was told that it was not her time yet but they would be together soon. Died about 1 week later. Toward the end she would drift in and out of consciousness and 1 time when she came to she proceeded to tell me she now understood why she had so much physical suffering in her life, relaying me a tale of recovering a "past life" memory of life in the 19th century or earlier when she lived a privileged life and "scorned" those who suffered. Q she was a "very" conventional Catholic that had little to no exposure to knowledge or views of these sort of phenomena in her life. earl

 

[Quahom1]

Earl, I am not for or against the concept of a past life (I just don't have the knowledge to make a call). But I do know that as a Christian, it is alledged that we are not judged in guilt for what may or may not have occured in the past, but rather, what we did with the gift we received once we accepted Christ as savior. I also know the bible says we are appointed to death but once. Seems odd to me that the same spirit would enter another body at another time only to experience death again. What, stand before God who says, "You didn't get it right the last time, go try again..."? Maybe.

Hell if that is the case, and the Zodiac is any indication of our number of times on earth...then it took me 11 times to get it right? (March baby). Man I must be stupid...lol

Seriously, I think there is the possibility that we carry genetic memories from our ancestors, as much as there is a possibility of re-incarnation.

We just don't know, though I suspect the former is much more viable than the latter. (there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to back that thought up)

As an aside, or rather backing into the original thought, I can tell you when my grand mother died (good catholic and loving woman), she shocked almost everyone in the room when she announced that her first son, husband, and his sister were right there, waiting for her. (she was 83, but clear of thought).

I said, "then if it's time to go home, why don't you go with them?" She smiled and said, "I will." And she was gone. Everyone cried, but I smiled, because I saw...something. And I knew it (and she) was alright. One of those out of the corner of your eye moments, that if you thought too hard on, you'd dismiss it.

But what I saw, was like a "veil" pulled back, for just a moment, and I was happy for and yet envied her...

Of course when the funeral actually occured, my own loss caught up to me and the grief was unbelievable. But it was for me, not for her. I, would miss her terribly...

Now if she was indeed met by her loved ones dead 50 plus years, my question would be, why weren't they re-incarnated? They finally made the grade? Perhaps.

And if people are re-incarnated, then why would someone like me in my occupation, rage at the loss of a life, and imagine what might have been had they survived and went on, instead of leaving an incomplete story?

Something inside tells me, this is it. It is precious and must be tended to, because once done here, there is no coming back.

my thoughts.

/r

Q

 

[LeoSalinas22]

hello everyone

i believe in resurrection. "believe" is the wrong word for this topic in my mind. i know there will be a resurrection. to me anyways. now the reason for this is because of the things i see here and now. i don't need to have a vision or a dream to believe this. i also don't need to be told about ndes. or even obe. God knows i have experienced plenty of these or have been told about them. but my belief isn't on these experiences but more about what is around me or in my life. resurrection to me is quite obvious because it is in my face. staring me down. and i can't help but acknowledge this. the things i see are but regular everyday things that should be common sense of the natural order of things. i will be using examples that i may have mentioned before on other threads but for those who want to read, let them read. and for those who don't, keep an open mind. here we go.

a pregnant woman. literally, has life within her. new life. life that came from man into woman and is new. and the cycle repeats. now, when life is concieved in the womb, we literally come from nothing. whilst in the womb, it is like when we die. the woman is the earth and the child is the dead. this may not make sense, but it does to me. i see life like a pattern of sorts and God reveals these things to me. no one else sees these experiences but there are mine to examine and question. so when the baby is born... new life exists. fresh. pure. the same should happen at the ressurection. the earth will give birth to new life. the purification of our souls. from nothing to something. this is constantly displayed in front of our eyes everyday so that we can learn. a clue or heads up that is given for those that want to learn.

the same can be said about a palm tree seed or any seed of sorts. plant it in the earth and what happens? it becomes alive. the seed is dead. lifeless. but the earth gives it life. how does this happen? science has yet to explain this miracle. how does something lifeless suddenly have life?

i have always asked myself, why do we sleep? what is the need for this? and why at night (though some people will fight this, of course)? unless its a heads up for things that are to come. an explanation of why or how things are intended to be in the natural order. we fight our sleeping yet we know that we are going to rise up in the morning to a new day. some people love to sleep. and that is awesome. to me, i hate it. its a waste of my time and i fight it off as much as i can, but in the end, it consumes me. nothing can stop it. so why fight it? because the flesh doesn't want to die. we can't let go. it doesn't want to rest.

from the setting of the sun to the rising of it. from the spring season to the cold winter. everything has its cycle. and it happens over and over. these things are revealed to us. we are the witnesses to these lessons. in my mind, there is no excuse why we shouldn't acknowledge this natural order. some people have become numb to these occurences, simply because its a natural everyday thing and we just simply shrug it off. i can't. i'm the kinda guy that marvels at these things everyday. its a beautiful lesson and ultimately teaches me that there is life after death. death is our sleeping and when the sun rises in the morning, we will awake to a fresh new life. life will continue because it was intended to continue without end. there shouldn't be fear of death, but we hold on when we should let go. i think this is our undoing. the holding on makes us selfish.

 

[Quahom1]

hello everyone

i believe in resurrection. "believe" is the wrong word for this topic in my mind. i know there will be a resurrection. to me anyways. now the reason for this is because of the things i see here and now. i don't need to have a vision or a dream to believe this. i also don't need to be told about ndes. or even obe. God knows i have experienced plenty of these or have been told about them. but my belief isn't on these experiences but more about what is around me or in my life. resurrection to me is quite obvious because it is in my face. staring me down. and i can't help but acknowledge this. the things i see are but regular everyday things that should be common sense of the natural order of things. i will be using examples that i may have mentioned before on other threads but for those who want to read, let them read. and for those who don't, keep an open mind. here we go.

a pregnant woman. literally, has life within her. new life. life that came from man into woman and is new. and the cycle repeats. now, when life is concieved in the womb, we literally come from nothing. whilst in the womb, it is like when we die. the woman is the earth and the child is the dead. this may not make sense, but it does to me. i see life like a pattern of sorts and God reveals these things to me. no one else sees these experiences but there are mine to examine and question. so when the baby is born... new life exists. fresh. pure. the same should happen at the ressurection. the earth will give birth to new life. the purification of our souls. from nothing to something. this is constantly displayed in front of our eyes everyday so that we can learn. a clue or heads up that is given for those that want to learn.

the same can be said about a palm tree seed or any seed of sorts. plant it in the earth and what happens? it becomes alive. the seed is dead. lifeless. but the earth gives it life. how does this happen? science has yet to explain this miracle. how does something lifeless suddenly have life?

i have always asked myself, why do we sleep? what is the need for this? and why at night (though some people will fight this, of course)? unless its a heads up for things that are to come. an explanation of why or how things are intended to be in the natural order. we fight our sleeping yet we know that we are going to rise up in the morning to a new day. some people love to sleep. and that is awesome. to me, i hate it. its a waste of my time and i fight it off as much as i can, but in the end, it consumes me. nothing can stop it. so why fight it? because the flesh doesn't want to die. we can't let go. it doesn't want to rest.

from the setting of the sun to the rising of it. from the spring season to the cold winter. everything has its cycle. and it happens over and over. these things are revealed to us. we are the witnesses to these lessons. in my mind, there is no excuse why we shouldn't acknowledge this natural order. some people have become numb to these occurences, simply because its a natural everyday thing and we just simply shrug it off. i can't. i'm the kinda guy that marvels at these things everyday. its a beautiful lesson and ultimately teaches me that there is life after death. death is our sleeping and when the sun rises in the morning, we will awake to a fresh new life. life will continue because it was intended to continue without end. there shouldn't be fear of death, but we hold on when we should let go. i think this is our undoing. the holding on makes us selfish.

Hmm, good point. the woman's egg is the potential for life, while the man's sperm is life. When the two meet, the sperm dies, but not before creating a "new" life within the two parts. Ironic that it is the sperm that initiates the beginnings of life, but the egg that completes it.

"For a man shall leave his home and cleave unto his wife..." A little bit of irony there as well.

Likewise, like Brooks and Dunn state in their song "I saw God today", there is no fear of death because it is temporary, a passage.

But I hate "sleeping" too lol

 

[path_of_one]

Earl, I am not for or against the concept of a past life (I just don't have the knowledge to make a call). But I do know that as a Christian, it is alledged that we are not judged in guilt for what may or may not have occured in the past, but rather, what we did with the gift we received once we accepted Christ as savior.

Personally, I don't believe we're judged and sent to live again as some sort of punishment. I think that misses the point- that life is worth living because it's wonderful. I think to live again is a gift- an opportunity to learn, or an opportunity to serve God in a new way, or an opportunity to simply enjoy incarnation again. That's what I came to understand for my own life.

People don't necessarily all return to life because they have something wrong with them and they have to "fix" it. Some people might, but others might just see a need and be willing to help out. Still others may be created to simply be joyful in living, and that is their purpose.

I also know the bible says we are appointed to death but once. Seems odd to me that the same spirit would enter another body at another time only to experience death again.

I can't explain it, but when you feel like you experience it firsthand, it makes sense. At least, that is my experience. I can't really imagine what it's like to be born a blank slate, to not remember other things, to not deal with a past and a sense of who you are as so out of step with what you "should" be given your culture and society. It seems really odd to me that a person would be born without any existing sense of a journey, and would only experience one blink of incarnation. Maybe we all just are used to what is "normal" to each of us, like people get comfy with their own culture.

I think death is just a doorway. It's all life- two sides of the same coin. Here, there, anywhere- we live on because God is everywhere.

Man I must be stupid...lol

Or on a mission.

Seriously, I think there is the possibility that we carry genetic memories from our ancestors, as much as there is a possibility of re-incarnation.

I agree that is a possibility, but I'm not sure why some things I "see" as being outside the scene (an observer) and other things I "see" from first-hand POV.

As an aside, or rather backing into the original thought, I can tell you when my grand mother died (good catholic and loving woman), she shocked almost everyone in the room when she announced that her first son, husband, and his sister were right there, waiting for her. (she was 83, but clear of thought).

This happens a lot. My grandfather, who passed away 1 1/2 years ago now, was met by his father (which was a reconciliation) and his best friend. I think that's beautiful. I hope to have a big welcome wagon of animals and family when I go.

Of course when the funeral actually occured, my own loss caught up to me and the grief was unbelievable. But it was for me, not for her. I, would miss her terribly...

I, too, mourn my loss and not for the person- they are in a better place, I believe. I think we all get a rest, even if we do reincarnate. And I think it must be just amazing to unite with God. If it's anything like moments I have of union... wow.

Now if she was indeed met by her loved ones dead 50 plus years, my question would be, why weren't they re-incarnated? They finally made the grade? Perhaps.

Of course, I don't know. My suspicions from my own memories and experiences are two-fold: first, that we have periods of rest before reincarnation and during this time, we reunite with family and friends (the Summerlands concept) and second, that we tend to reincarnate in groups. I don't know the functionality of reincarnating in groups, though I have speculations about what this might accomplish spiritually. I strongly feel that certain people I'm close to in this life were revivals of past relationships, and I know others who claim past-life memories and also recognize their former relationships with people. Also, it would make sense that if there is a rest period, we tend to cycle 'round (those of us that do cycle) in groups. This general idea is found in earth-based traditions all over the world, though it is by no means universal.

And if people are re-incarnated, then why would someone like me in my occupation, rage at the loss of a life, and imagine what might have been had they survived and went on, instead of leaving an incomplete story?

Because no matter how many times you have it, incarnated life is precious. And each time I incarnate, I am a unique being that will never exist again. The part of me that incarnates again is not the same mix of stuff that is this unique incarnation- I will never be this body, this brain, this personality, this family, this culture, this history ever again. That's my take on it.

It's kind of like wondering why God would care about even one lost soul, when there are so many others that aren't lost. Every soul is precious, so every single one matters a great deal.

Every life I get is precious, even if I feel like I've had a lot of them. And I do feel like I've had oodles. I don't know if that is a good or bad reflection on my character. LOL

Something inside tells me, this is it. It is precious and must be tended to, because once done here, there is no coming back.

That is certainly true in the sense that every moment we have is a unique one, never to return. If I reincarnate, even in a group, say... 200 or 400 years from now... even if it is to earth, in the same location, with the same people- nothing will be the same. Heck, the people I know aren't even the same people they were 20 years ago in *this* lifetime. There is no going back.

Unless we exist in a time loop. But that's a thought experiment for another day...

 

[earl]

Since I've mentioned instrumental transcommunication as well as the Catholicism of my first wife here, couldn't resist 1 more bit of trivia. The first known ITC recording apparently occurred in the early 1950's when 2 Catholic priests were attempting to record some Gregorian chant. When they played it back they discovered some words by a deceased priest friend on the recording. Apparently the pope was reputed to have been intrigued by that. earl

 

[mee]

You can go to sleep if you wish.

mee is wide awake and not tired at all

 

[Quahom1]

mee is wide awake and not tired at all

could be...asleep with eyes wide open...

 

[mee]

could be...asleep with eyes wide open...

seeing with the eye of understanding is what it is all about , then we do not lose our focus

 

[Dondi]

One Truth, no Reality. Truth is reunion with God. Spirit returning to Spirit. How a consciousness may experience that might vary. It may be that it is dependent on how much we've done to open ourselves to the revelation of God....

Why would he? Why would it be different from how He reveals Himself variously to people here on earth?

That said, there is a surprising uniformity in NDEs from all over the world. Many, many people say that they experience a pure Light and a supremely ecstatic feeling of Love. That seems pretty Biblical to me. It seems to be the core of NDE, statistically speaking. That and reunion with loved ones.

That said, I think God is probably a pretty complex and incomprehensible being, even if we are dead. Personally, I don't expect to ever understand God in His entirety. Too big. I just hope for reunion.

One Truth, no Reality..hmmm. Isn't Truth Reality? Granted, this world is a pale reflection of anything we can imagine. We see through a glass darkly. Maybe that is why we have such a kalidescope of beliefs. But I think the closer we get, the less distorted the picture:

"But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord." - 2 Cor 3:18

Closer to fine? That's the objective of most religions. But we won't find out that Reality until we come face to Face.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." - I John 3:2

I told Alex in another that God is as multifaceted as there are people in the world. Yet, there has to be some kind of uniformity if there is to be harmony, hopefully without sacrificing who we are individually. I wonder how God is going to do this?

 

[17th Angel]

Truth isn't always reality... Sure to some it may seem reality.. But, sometimes it is all just made up.... I have seen many things and believed them to be true while under infulences of... things... That was not reality lol.. Or people that are sadly mentally ill.. Some of their claims of truth are but parts of their illnesses.... You know....

 

[Dondi]

There was a guest speaker at a Calvary Chapel that claimed to be in the morgue over 24 hours and revive. He had a very long and detailed NDE story. I don't necessarily buy it, unless perhaps he was accidentally poisoned with puffer fish, which will cause a state of coma so close to death that even modern medicine struggles to tell the difference. But this usually produces a great deal of brain damage due to limited oxygen.

I wouldn't mind investigating this in more detail. It sounds intriguing. Do you have any more information about this case?

It's possible, but not exactly a straight forward reading of that passage, is it? So far as I can tell, the Bible is sort of contradictory on the after life. If I understand Jewish ideas correctly, that's because it's more about how to live your now than what happens when you die. I think that's a good thing. I think it means we should trust God and be good and all that because that's what we should do, rather than focusing on reward or punishment.

Good point! I agree.

In fact, if I every get a chance to speak to my congregation, I'm going to challenge them to imagine there's no heaven, no hell below us, above us only sky. That if this is all we have, what would your life be like? Would you still be living for the Lord? (We have a New Year's Eve service where anyone can get up onstage and sing, do a skit, preach, or give a testamony for about 10 minutes each. I just might have the guts to do this.)

I think many Christian groups concentrate so heavily on salvation that they miss the point on what salvation is really for. Sure, we want to see our folks in heaven. But what is God's ultimate purpose? To conform us into His image. Why do people miss this?

I will say that the one OBE I had where I felt like I really experienced the closest thing to heaven, I had no thought whatsoever of anything but the experience. I was in such a moment of "now-ness" that I didn't have any thoughts of the past or future at all, nor did I wonder where other people were, or think to ask any questions, or anything like that at all. I was just pretty much grooving on the love and unity, and the oddness of having no body and being able to disintegrate into things, and how the whole thing was like being pixels in a hologram.

That is a recurring theme for those who experience NDEs, from what I read. No sense of time and a tremendous feeling of oneness with everything. Was the OBE intentional?

All that said, I feel like I have past life memories. It was strong enough that I couldn't logically think I only get one life and then heaven. At first, that made me depressed. I was kind of tired of the struggle of life and I wanted to just get to heaven one day and never have to really do anything or struggle or learn or feel bad stuff again. Then I really felt the Spirit ask me "Do you want what you want, or what I give you?" I realized that I was attached to the idea of heaven and resurrection and one life because I was being lazy and didn't feel like doing the work of living. After that, I sort of grew into acceptance and then joy in being incarnated, even if I am limited and imperfect and the world kind of sucks at times. I became willing to do whatever God wants of me after this life. If heaven, yay. If more of the same, that's OK.

Hmm...this is a concept I struggle over. I don't have any recollection of any past lives. Yet, at this point in history I would think I've surely must have had some if reincarnation were true. Perhaps I ought to open myself to hypnosis, I dunno.

LOL- that's true, if you believe in hell. I don't believe in a literal hell, but rather I believe being separated from God is hell. We're there until we choose to leave. But yeah, if God puts people in some literal fire, it's pretty harsh treatment for the poor guy who was the first to get thrown in there.

It would be just as bad, perhaps worse, even if hell would just be separation from God. There still would be no love, no peace, no hope.

 

[Dondi]

Truth isn't always reality... Sure to some it may seem reality.. But, sometimes it is all just made up.... I have seen many things and believed them to be true while under infulences of... things... That was not reality lol.. Or people that are sadly mentally ill.. Some of their claims of truth are but parts of their illnesses.... You know....

But that's subjective truth. I'm talking about objective truth, objective reality, when we finally find out what it's all about.

 

[path_of_one]

I told Alex in another that God is as multifaceted as there are people in the world. Yet, there has to be some kind of uniformity if there is to be harmony, hopefully without sacrificing who we are individually. I wonder how God is going to do this?

Ever seen fractal geometry? Heard fractal music? That's how I think it works- it's the closest thing I can use to describe my own experience of being in God's presence (the bit of Him I've experienced). I was part of fractal music, as were all beings everywhere. God was the source, the equation if you will, that unified all of it. Yet every single thing God ever created was a unique manifestation of that Source, and in perfect harmony. It was pretty amazing.

 

[path_of_one]

I wouldn't mind investigating this in more detail. It sounds intriguing. Do you have any more information about this case?

Unfortunately, no. It was at Calvary Chapel of Redlands about six years ago. I can't remember the speaker's name.

That if this is all we have, what would your life be like? Would you still be living for the Lord?

Exactly. I think we forget about how amazing our current life is, how much gratitude we should have for simply breathing and being alive and feeling love. We get kind of greedy.

But what is God's ultimate purpose? To conform us into His image. Why do people miss this?

People have the wrong focus. They are not letting go of the self. They are focused on their fears and desires rather than on God. So, religion becomes about getting rid of their fears (the afterlife eases fears of death) and getting their desires (a paradise where everyone lives in a mansion and doesn't have to work anymore). The US tends to produce a kind of consumerist, materialist version of religions.

Was the OBE intentional?

No. These things just happen to me sometimes, either arising from meditation or in dream after I have been in meditation or contemplative prayer. I have never been able to force an OBE, but it happens somewhat regularly (though infrequently) on its own and has since I was a kid.

Yet, at this point in history I would think I've surely must have had some if reincarnation were true.

Why? I think most people do not remember, for good reason. I can say in my own experience that memories are not always pleasant. You can find yourself working through baggage from multiple lives at once, which is not easy. It's also hard to feel like you miss who you were before, the places you were before. Like all memory, they come with emotion. I think it likely that most people are best served by not having any memories at all, so they can focus on their life this time around, what they are learning now, their service to others now.

Perhaps I ought to open myself to hypnosis, I dunno.

I'd be very wary of this. It's been shown in psychological research that people are open to false memories during hypnosis. That is, the hypnotist can purposefully or accidentally fabricate false memories in the subject. Personally, while I'm curious, I've steered clear of past life regression and hypnosis and all that. I figure that as long as I am faithful to God in prayer, I will only ever remember what I am meant to remember. I think pressing for more can really threaten people's sense of purpose and self in this life- sort of derailing them from living right now.

It would be just as bad, perhaps worse, even if hell would just be separation from God. There still would be no love, no peace, no hope.

Agreed. But I think where I differ from mainstream Christian doctrine is that I think hell is not eternal, and I think we are not "sent" to hell by God, but rather choose to be in hell out of our own stubbornness and controlling nature. We choose to be alone because we don't want God to be in authority, and by nature, God is in authority. So we remain in hell until we choose to turn toward God and embrace our true selves. We remain imprisoned in our ego until we learn to let it go. I think God never gives up on us, and I think all are purified through this painful fire until we choose to leave it.