Evolution question.

I think you should assume that when I reply to Q I am talking to him and not you.

tao

Very well, then I might ask that when I reply to Path you should assume I am talking to her, not you. What is more, look again...perhaps "creationist cesspits" was a response to Q but it directly referenced me, the other was a direct response to me that effectively meant the same thing.
 
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Evolutionary theory is not shifting truth. It is theory- it is a good, useful, working model to explain something. Theories necessarily change over time when we obtain new technology, methodology, data, or even when humans are born that have a unique ability to see the old data in new ways. It's part and parcel of science.
Exactly, I'm not the one that needs to be convinced.

The general public seems to think science is about facts. Science is not about facts. Science is about making facts into useful information. It is about inquiry.
Are the hard heads among us listening?

That one would throw out scientific theory because it changes as we gain more information- for example, to throw out evolutionary theory because researchers have not yet figured out the exact percentage that we're like chimps... this is like throwing out one's religion because everyone has a different idea about what it means. In fact, the latter is far more divergent amongst "experts" than the former. It's like the people who reject Christ because Christians can't figure out one unified view of Him and God, and we don't know exactly where all the text from the Bible came from, or when it was written, or what got left out and why.
Gee, does this sound like anybody we know?

I have no problem with understanding science is a tool for learning. But there are those among us who make a religion out of science, call it fact, and try to beat G-d out of the rest of us with it. You hit the nail on the head, and they are every bit as hysterically religious as those they rail against.
 
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I'd never have arrived at belief without an abiding and lifelong conviction that evolution is now a proven fact, so I guess it's not that off-topic in this thread. (To ward off any confusion, yes, it was my abiding conviction that evolution has gotten the big picture essentially correct that actually helped me arrive at belief.)
It's good to see you around again Operacast, it's been quite a while.

I hope you don't mind, but your wonderful comment invites a response.

Like BB said quoting Dawkins, all life is connected.

So we share genes with chimps...we also share genes with Charles Manson, the common house mouse, the american cockroach, bananas and yeast. All flora and fauna share genetic material...to me that is such an overwhelming realization.

What science gives us is the tools to try to make some sense of it, but science can't tell us how it started. Oh, there is a lot of speculation...but speculation is just that, not truth, not fact. Perhaps there is a conscious creator behind it all in the beginning...or perhaps it is a random chance occurance. Science is in no position to say, and those honestly in the service of science would say as much.

Out of some tiny spark of life grew the complex variety we all see around us. We cannot truthfully say when, but we can make an educated guess. We cannot truthfully say what mechanism drives the process, but we can make an educated guess.

I am actually in awe of the process, and it makes me consider far more deeply than the trite myths I learned in Sunday school, or public school.
 
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you seemed to me to be objecting to evolution on the grounds that it might lead to eugenics; i would consider that "whataboutery" on the same level as criticising religion because it might lead to genocide.
My objection was to defining speciation by cosmetics...you know, color of the skin, size of the nose, amount of intelligence kind of thing? Which *is* one of the primary uses of the term "species," and it was this specifically that led to eugenics and german atrocities during wwII. I am not pulling this out of my arse...there is plenty of historic reference to support my comment.

Yet we still commonly find those that tout the "evidence of speciation" by the size of the beak on a finch. If that's the case, then there are a whole bunch of different human species...and all that entails. Oooops.
 
Hi opera,
I for one would like to hear your story.


("your brain just went soft" I can hear Tao saying;-)

No buddy :) I can see how easy it is to adopt 'faith' in something bigger. And I am fully aware that such adoption need not be negative or counter to honesty at the very deepest level. To believe or not to believe is a personal choice and one I do, despite my chosen stance here as resident non-believer, respect everyone's choice to believe what they wish. And I believe I usually keep my outspoken condemnations of religion not to an individuals beliefs but to the institutions and their tools.

CR is my favourite discussion site. It is always here I pop in first and keep coming back. I do not think you can do that without on some level having a deep personal commitment to the question of religion. I think most of the regulars here that I debate with are not here to proselytise nor to confirm their beliefs to themselves but to be inspired to think outside the box. I do not want to proselytize my own mediocre philosophy but I do want to see how it stands up in the face of others ideas about the nature of reality. And of course their expertise in general. I do not want to convert or sway, I only want to discuss. And I like passion. I think people write their best stuff when they are animated to passion. And sometimes their worst, which can be equally enlightening as many of my own post amply illustrate. But at the end of the day if you come and post here you have a duty to listen to every voice. You can then of course dismiss it for yourself, but you should listen. I think I do.

Faith is so deeply personal that it can only be described by metaphor, in that it is like love. I do not think you soft for finding it embedded in the same things I look at. But it suits my purpose and method to reject it not so much as untrue but as irrelevant. Again I hope you take the time to tell your story.



tao
 
Very well, then I might ask that when I reply to Path you should assume I am talking to her, not you. What is more, look again...perhaps "creationist cesspits" was a response to Q but it directly referenced me, the other was a direct response to me that effectively meant the same thing.

My apologies. This is how it appears and I can understand your chagrin. But despite what it reads like I was addressing my contention with Q's illogical thinking drawn directly from creationist propaganda.

"Gee, does this sound like anybody we know? "

Why am I not entitled to my opinion? What gets you so riled about it? Maybe you are angry at me because you feel I am so close and yet so far? Are not the POV's I state here valid ones and add to the overall debate here? Do you want to see nobody on this site challenging religion, or at least most aspects of it, on the most fundamental level?

Your personal vitriol in some of your statements includes exactly what you accuse me of. I have no problem with it, it makes me smile not frown. But I say again, like I have on other threads, I am not a scientist and my use of science in my thinking is not a religion. I can see why it is important to you to have me labelled in such a way but its importance to you does not make it true.

You can get frustrated with me as your focus for your own mistakes. You dug your own hole in this thread by approaching it with an inconsequential observation on speciation. You attempted to use it as cause to condemn science on the grounds that it was the father of Eugenics. It seems to me you are wrestling with these questions in some way that is causing you some confusion. My mind is clear on the subject. As I have stated. I cannot know why this seems so important to you but speciation and breeding and eugenics do have the potential to association with questions of race. Is this what you are getting at? Humanity is a single species with enormous variation in the superficial physical features. Genetically it also appears that the strongest and fittest and smartest breeding matches amongst our superficially diverse species are from its extremes. So called inter-racial marriages result in the strongest, fittest offspring. Its like the old pedigree or mongrel observation. Mongrels tend to be fitter, healthier and live far longer.

If we look at the spread of modern man out of Africa, and in evolutionary time this has been extremely rapid, we see nothing but the confirmation of evolution as a valid theory. So fast has the spread been that there has been no time for genetic drift to form distinct new species, but long enough for great regional variation to take place. It is just how it should look if evolution is a working theory.

I believe evolution because I see something, some claim, that something works. I do not have faith in it, I actually see it work and so do most other people who care to look. But when it comes to God I see nothing, but nothing, that even comes close to definitively provable. Choosing to thus not believe is a rational choice not a religious one. I use science in my overall philosophy yes, but it is a very different animal from theology and I in no way have religious adherence to it.


tao
 
Hello All,

I have read this entire thread, and I find it quite captivating, knowledgeable, factual, some cases funny, and in some of the threads I really thought that I was going to have to call 911 as a verbal fight was breaking out! lol

For me this has been a great read, I have learned that we all believe in different things in the case of evolution. I agree with some and not with others! From my point of view, and I am not as educated as the majority of you here and my little brain has found this thread to be quite stimulating, and I feel a little smarter because of all of you and your participation. “Thank you for that”.

To me and this is in my opinion only. Science is a gauge that man has created for themselves that evolves with each new discovery to give themselves some kind of reasoning for something that they can not explain for what is unknown to them and to all us. I consider it to be like Algebra in a way. You are trying to make something out of nothing. It is all hypothetical anyway, I don’t think that it really matters as to what we evolved from, what matters is that we are alive and living life and hopefully making it a better place for the ones that we leave behind when our cycle of life has ended.

Yes, are DNA is similar as other creatures as they were created before man and we were created all from the same material by the Creator. To me that is why our genetic make up would be similar.

In regards to a comment that was made, and I am not going back trough all of the threads to try to figure it out, as I have to go to Home Depot to finish what I have started.

Trust is something that we have and we give naturally until we are deceived and to regain that trust it must be earned, but even after it being regained to some degree you are forever leery of that person and or animal again.

God Bless
Ian
 
My apologies. This is how it appears and I can understand your chagrin. But despite what it reads like I was addressing my contention with Q's illogical thinking drawn directly from creationist propaganda.
Apology accepted. I apologize to you as well. There is an underlying method to my (hopefully temporary) madness.

Why am I not entitled to my opinion?
Why am I not entitled to mine?

You must admit, I have danced around your opinion for a long time, even agreeing with you on matters of the failings of institutional religion. But there comes a time when something must be said, or done, to try to get you to realize the severity with which your opinion becomes a blunt weapon. I believe you used the term vitriol, read again snippets from other posts from this thread, and see the vitriol dished out:

People who use the cover of religion to propagate blatant untruths like creationism in our schools should be subject to criminal prosecution.
The underlying hint is that science is truth and religion is untruth...I would hope that by this point in the conversation that has been clarified.

Evolution theory is not a vague possibility but as much a certainty as the sun will rise again tomorrow.
Ditto the previous statement. If evolutionary theory is subject to amendment, then it is *not* a certainty.

One of my biggest issues with religions is that they are allowed to peddle what they know to be fiction or speculation as though it were truth. To me this is fraud and they should be held accountable as fraudsters. Its that black and white to me.
What is science but educated speculation? Sure, it is a useful tool that results in working models of understanding for application...but truth it is not, it is speculation. Particularly if it is subject to amendment.

Sure I'm an atheist. And I believe science to be the best tool we have to study the observable. You cannot study the unobservable, it is speculation, philosophy...just ideas with no more credibility than the next persons. And that is how religion should be viewed and embraced. As ideas, not as facts. They are rarely taught that way. And each successive generation is filled up with the dogma of the sect as though it were truth when it patently is not. And I am more than a little tired of seeing this justified by 'religious freedom'.
In light of the previous comment, can you see how this becomes even more dogmatic in its erroneous assertion...an erroneous assertion fuelled by a need to lay blame on an "other."

I recently watched a documentary online that interviewed people in the streets of some bible-belt town. It quickly became apparent that Mr and Mrs Average American Christian had virtually no understanding of evolution theory and that their creationist dogma was built upon the indignation they felt at being associated with 'lowly animals'. The level of ignorance was startling, the racial prejudice simmered just below the boil and arrogance of the most ugly kind, the kind that gave rise to the Third Reich, seemed to pervade the town like some plague. Evolution is not about belief. It IS about facts. But to try and tell that to these people would be futile. They were so anally retentive that their brains were already stewed beyond rational in their own s**t. This is what religion can do to people and why you will see me continuing to be disgusted by it.
And I have seen all sorts of off-kilter biases in so-called documentaries. If I take this one alone at face value, I must presume that I...as an average American Christian...must be an idiot.

I would hope this thread alone solidly refutes that notion.

You mentioned to Operacast that you like to get others to think, that sometimes it requires passion...well, you got a dose of what you give.

Logic must work in every direction, what you dish to others must be considered in the light of being applied to yourself as well.

That's called "taking a good hard look in the mirror."

I do it all the time. :D
 
Apology accepted. I apologize to you as well. There is an underlying method to my (hopefully temporary) madness.
I was apologising for a mistake not for my 'tone' :p As I see you have no need to apologise but I appreciate the gesture :)


Why am I not entitled to mine?
Of course, but I reserve the right to think it wrong :D

You must admit, I have danced around your opinion for a long time, even agreeing with you on matters of the failings of institutional religion. But there comes a time when something must be said, or done, to try to get you to realize the severity with which your opinion becomes a blunt weapon. I believe you used the term vitriol, read again snippets from other posts from this thread, and see the vitriol dished out:
Yeh and I make no apology for such vitriol, disgust or indignation. I meant and mean every word of it. It is how I really feel. It is blunt but I do not think of it as a weapon. Rather I see it as an alarm bell.


The underlying hint is that science is truth and religion is untruth...I would hope that by this point in the conversation that has been clarified.
"underlying hint" hmmmm, is this not your inference not mine? I say time and time again I understand and allow for the limitations of science. That I do not see it as TRUTH but that it reveals some 'working' truths. I think what you may object to really is the high incidence of me using the scientific method to dissect religious subjects? If so, doing that does not make science my religion. I am not a scientist, I have no particular expertise in any scientific discipline. The scientific method itself is useful and I do try to apply it to my thinking. But without expertise I do not possess this will never be rigorous.


Ditto the previous statement. If evolutionary theory is subject to amendment, then it is *not* a certainty.
May not be a CERTAINTY but it is a 'certainty'. And that is all I have ever said.


What is science but educated speculation? Sure, it is a useful tool that results in working models of understanding for application...but truth it is not, it is speculation. Particularly if it is subject to amendment.
But not in the same sense nor to the extreme that religion is.


In light of the previous comment, can you see how this becomes even more dogmatic in its erroneous assertion...an erroneous assertion fuelled by a need to lay blame on an "other."
No I cannot see. I see nothing dogmatic at all. I do not draw the inspiration for my comments from any organised system of thought. I have no affiliations to, nor use any particular school for the POV I put forward. No Dogma, just my own opinion.


And I have seen all sorts of off-kilter biases in so-called documentaries. If I take this one alone at face value, I must presume that I...as an average American Christian...must be an idiot.
Sure documentaries are usually skewed to a particular conclusion. None the less the makers were standing at the same point for a brief time able to gather a number of people who showed their hatred of being 'apes'. The implications of the mindset that holds such a view on racial harmony are easy to infer. And it is their religious values that informs their opinion. I of course do not think every American to be that kind of "idiot" but even in light of obvious electoral fraud very many Americans voted an American Idiot as president. And the implications of that are felt globally. Creationist salespersons amidst the Republican Christian Right are trying to alter the whole philosophy of National Identity toward a supremacist, patriarchal ideology that is incompatible with individual freedom. I would call that a threat. Its not possible for me to fight them as I have no voting rights, nor do I live in the geographic region to be able to effectively campaign against them. But hopefully as an outsider I can offer a useful reminder that religious freedom is being hijacked to remove any freedom at all.

You mentioned to Operacast that you like to get others to think, that sometimes it requires passion...well, you got a dose of what you give.
And I welcome it.

That's called "taking a good hard look in the mirror."

I do it all the time. :D
Are you calling yourself a narcissist!!???:p
lol, I think I am more self-honest than can come across. And I pull faces at my reflection more than you might imagine. But I am here for the debate and not to preen :)

tao
 
Hello All,

I have read this entire thread, and I find it quite captivating, knowledgeable, factual, some cases funny, and in some of the threads I really thought that I was going to have to call 911 as a verbal fight was breaking out! lol

For me this has been a great read, I have learned that we all believe in different things in the case of evolution. I agree with some and not with others! From my point of view, and I am not as educated as the majority of you here and my little brain has found this thread to be quite stimulating, and I feel a little smarter because of all of you and your participation. “Thank you for that”.

To me and this is in my opinion only. Science is a gauge that man has created for themselves that evolves with each new discovery to give themselves some kind of reasoning for something that they can not explain for what is unknown to them and to all us. I consider it to be like Algebra in a way. You are trying to make something out of nothing. It is all hypothetical anyway, I don’t think that it really matters as to what we evolved from, what matters is that we are alive and living life and hopefully making it a better place for the ones that we leave behind when our cycle of life has ended.

Yes, are DNA is similar as other creatures as they were created before man and we were created all from the same material by the Creator. To me that is why our genetic make up would be similar.

In regards to a comment that was made, and I am not going back trough all of the threads to try to figure it out, as I have to go to Home Depot to finish what I have started.

Trust is something that we have and we give naturally until we are deceived and to regain that trust it must be earned, but even after it being regained to some degree you are forever leery of that person and or animal again.

God Bless
Ian


Fourth paragraph, second word = "OUR"
 
You mentioned to Operacast that you like to get others to think, that sometimes it requires passion...well, you got a dose of what you give.
And I welcome it.

Oooooooooo.K................ But I'm not sure how many will feel up to slogging through it all -- it's loooong. Still, I hope it may spur on bananabrain to tell us his own evaluation path as well..........?

I feel like asking special permission here first, because even after lots of cutting and trimming today, I can't seem to (with the best will in the world) get my whole analysis/evaluation narrative below <big breath> nine and a half printed pages! That would mean that, at the least, it would need three posts in a row to get it all in here (it's roughly down to 35,000 characters now!).

Advice?

Thanks,

Operacast
 
My apologies. This is how it appears and I can understand your chagrin. But despite what it reads like I was addressing my contention with Q's illogical thinking drawn directly from creationist propaganda.



tao
...you can't see past your own nose Tao, don't presume to see through my eyes.

I had nothing to do with creationism. But I do have issues with your ****
 
Oooooooooo.K................ But I'm not sure how many will feel up to slogging through it all

-- through the whole nine yards of my own evaluation/analysis path, that is, as I've been invited to do here.

-- it's loooong. Still, I hope it may spur on bananabrain to tell us his own evaluation path as well..........?

I feel like asking special permission here first, because even after lots of cutting and trimming today, I can't seem to (with the best will in the world) get my whole analysis/evaluation narrative below <big breath> nine and a half printed pages! That would mean that, at the least, it would need three posts in a row to get it all in here (it's roughly down to 35,000 characters now!).

Advice?

Thanks,

Operacast
 
Oooooooooo.K................ But I'm not sure how many will feel up to slogging through it all -- it's loooong. Still, I hope it may spur on bananabrain to tell us his own evaluation path as well..........?

I feel like asking special permission here first, because even after lots of cutting and trimming today, I can't seem to (with the best will in the world) get my whole analysis/evaluation narrative below <big breath> nine and a half printed pages! That would mean that, at the least, it would need three posts in a row to get it all in here (it's roughly down to 35,000 characters now!).

Advice?
I think there is a 10 thousand word maximum per post, so you would have to split into 4.

My suggestion would be to begin a new thread for something so lengthy. I have done that a time or two on CR. By no means do I make this next suggestion as a way to shoo you away, but I think you may have the best opportunity to catch Bananabrain's attention by posting on the Judaism board. If I were you, that is what I would do; split my OP into 4 parts (less than 10 thousand words each) and start a new thread on the Judaism board to get BB's attention.

Best of luck whatever you decide. And please feel free to continue here as well. :)
 
Of course, but I reserve the right to think it wrong :D
But I'm an idiot who has no right to raise children and who should be legislated against and sent to prison if I disagree with you? Wrong, I too reserve the right to think your opinion is ill informed. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander.

What I see you saying is that everybody has a right to your opinion, and any that disagree with you have no right to do so or voice their opinions. You want your cake and to eat it too. Wrong.

I think what you may object to really is the high incidence of me using the scientific method to dissect religious subjects? If so, doing that does not make science my religion.
Not at all.

What I object to is the *need* for everyone who disagrees with you to be wrong. ;)

That's one place Dawkins made an error; even his personal "right way" is a meme, every bit as much as those he rails against.

I have no objection to you being right (in your own eyes), everybody has that psychological need. What I object to is the male pattern determination to dominance that makes everybody else wrong. In that much your meme is identical to the fundamentalists you rail against: it's your way or the highway.

May not be a CERTAINTY but it is a 'certainty'. And that is all I have ever said.
No. Certainty, however you may wish to emphasize it, is rock solid...not subject to amendment. A working model in progress that changes by the week with each new discovery is *not* a certainty, regardless if that is all you have ever said or not.
 
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But I'm an idiot who has no right to raise children and who should be legislated against and sent to prison if I disagree with you? Wrong, I too reserve the right to think your opinion is ill informed. What is good for the goose, is good for the gander.

What I see you saying is that everybody has a right to your opinion, and any that disagree with you have no right to do so or voice their opinions. You want your cake and to eat it too. Wrong.
I am sorry you do not see the religious indoctrination of children as an issue worthy of some debate. But at least you have come out and admitted yourself to be a creationist.

What I write on these threads is my opinion and you are under no duress or compulsion to agree with one word of it. Of course I put forward a case based on my own thinking, (note I did not use the word beliefs), and defend it where necessary and, if you really look, concede where I have no choice. I never completed a masters in diplomacy so if you want to debate with me at all you will have to put up with my rough edges. I certainly never take anything you say to me personally.

What I object to is the *need* for everyone who disagrees with you to be wrong. ;)
I could not give a flying hoot whether anybody agrees with me or not. It does not even feature on my reasons for coming to CR list. And if you really think I am after winning people over to one opinion or another then you simply do not get me.



No. Certainty, however you may wish to emphasize it, is rock solid...not subject to amendment. A working model in progress that changes by the week with each new discovery is *not* a certainty, regardless if that is all you have ever said or not.
Ok Boss, thats me told. Evolution is not a certainty. Whatever...



tao
 
Tao, I apologize, but there's eight pages here. I want to follow but the thought of skimming even these 8 makes my head swim. Could you please summarize, or at least quickly rehash how it is you see the major tenets (articles, ideas) of your position?

And inasmuch as there seems to be another viewpoint, or other viewpoints being represented, could anyone clarify just what that is? Again, with a quick summary or emphasis of point 1, point 2, point 3?

Maybe it could be even stated, okay, here are 2 camps, and this is where there is overlap, while these are the major points of difference or disagreement.

I've read several posts, but I just don't get it. Sorry, I tuned in kind of late. :eek:

Thanks

andrew
 
Sure Andrew. Its pretty simple.

Evolution theory is a credible scientific theory. Creationism is not. And it should not be taught in schools as a scientific theory. And I would say not at all in any school.



On eugenics, Juantoo wishes to assert that eugenics is a product of evolutionary theory. I assert population control and inbreeding along these lines is as old as recorded history.

I think that covers the two main themes.


tao
 
Sure Andrew. Its pretty simple.

Evolution theory is a credible scientific theory. Creationism is not. And it should not be taught in schools as a scientific theory. And I would say not at all in any school.



On eugenics, Juantoo wishes to assert that eugenics is a product of evolutionary theory. I assert population control and inbreeding along these lines is as old as recorded history.

I think that covers the two main themes.


tao
That is one opinion...

Eugenics is indeed an attempt to manipulate evolution...with mixed results (more bad than good). Today's German Shepard and Rotweiller are good examples.
 
Sure Andrew. Its pretty simple.

Evolution theory is a credible scientific theory. Creationism is not. And it should not be taught in schools as a scientific theory. And I would say not at all in any school.



On eugenics, Juantoo wishes to assert that eugenics is a product of evolutionary theory. I assert population control and inbreeding along these lines is as old as recorded history.

I think that covers the two main themes.


tao
Thanks, Tao.

I would have to agree, creationism has no place in the public school. Inasmuch as we trying to present a sound education, we should teach the current understanding of evolutionary theory ... keeping in mind that `theory' isn't the same thing as a hypotheis, or belief, or educated guess. What we know about the development of the earth ... the evolution of various species, the diversification and complexity that have emerged from a much beginning, and so forth ... all of this needs to be taught as fact. Dating methods, as we know, are only approximate, and always subject to later reinterpretation and correction.

But I think the conclusions must be left open-ended. And a good teacher knows how to stimulate his students interest, draw out (educare) their innate curiosty and desire to learn, and lead them only toward the search that they must make their own -- and not toward pre-packaged, rote conclusions which substitute for, or negate any real future possibility of say, a proper cosmology or metaphysics, a cosmogensis, an anthropogenesis, or even a theogenesis.

Religion, where it intersects with education, should be taught in a college course, either by the religious studies department, or in the philosophy department ... or by a divinity school. World mythologies, on the other hand, both East, West, modern and ancient ... including at least some fragments from as many diverse cultures as possible, ought to be required reading from even as early an age as kindergarten. An entire program of arts & humanities is sorely lacking in the educational system that I remember, and even in the current textbooks what we have is an extremely biased, or at least cursory presentation ... which hardly encourages students to look beyond their own Sunday School lessons, or Buddhist sutras, Koran verses, Torah, etc.

I mean, I hardly expect instant Joseph Campbell and Huston Smith, but -- hmm, then again, if Huston Smith's The World's Religions: Our Great Wisdom Traditions were required reading for every middle schooler, our children would immediately be tremendously better equipped to deal with just such difficult questions as those surrounding the Evolution-Creationism false dichotomy ...

The `either-or' problem is a dead end, however, and I would hope that we'd all be able to see that at this point. Personally, I groan when I hear the term Intelligent Design ... because I happen to believe this phrase beautifully captures the exact point which spiritually-minded (and religiously-minded) people have been trying to make for decades!

Yes, we would all do well to have a look once again, from start to finish, at Spencer Tracy, Gene Kelly, Harry Morgan and the gang in Inherit the Wind ... if we haven't watched it recently. It is a beautiful testament to the triumph of Truth in our modern world, over superstition, fear, suppression and hate. Many more such triumphs have been won in the name of science ... but I'm afraid the cold, dead fingers of the spectres of 18th and 19th century materialism still haunt our modern mind all too pervasively.

Anyone who takes a little time to investigate -- and this already includes a good number of modern and 20th Century scientists -- cannot but be amazed and impressed, even intrigued, captivated by the extensive astronomical (and astrological) knowledge of the ancient Hindus. A similar knowledge can be demonstrated as being in the possession of dozens of other civilizations or cultures, from the Egyptian, Roman and Greek, to the Babylonian, Chaldean, Azetec, Mayan, Dogon, Nordic, Icelandic and so forth. Only now, in the past few decades of astronomical observation and progress in the various branches of physics, are some of our "cutting edge" discoveries finally catching up with what the ancients knew tens (if not possibly hundred) of thousands of years ago.

Now ... if modern science, which is revered as gospel and hailed as the new religion by its adherents worldwide, but nowhere so unabashedly as in the west ... if science, could only be understood in the same light as religion, as art, as economics, politics and philosophy -- we might finally be able to get somewhere in our thinking. Science is a method, and not primarily a body of knowledge, or facts. The collection of discoveries that have been made by using the Scentific Method are every bit as deserving of being added to the great storehouse of knowledge ... but we would do well to keep an ever-questioning, open mind regarding just what this storehouse actually "looks" like, let alone where it exists, and what other methods - as yet unrealized by ourselves at present - might one day be used either to make entries, or even to extract them, if perhaps the process may go both ways.

Yes, we usually think of learning as putting information in, and when we take things into consideration it is almost always, though fortunately not quite so, that we are relating either directly, or indirectly to the outside world, via the five accepted senses. But what does science have to say at this point about additional senses as fully legitimate means of information-gathering ... or with regard to the Intuition as a faculty of consciousness altogether different than, and superior to the Intellect?

Eugenics, it seems to me, can have various motives for its practice, just as any other philosophy ... and when our real concern is both self-improvement and the improvement of the greater whole, I think we're on the right track. But that needs to be kept close in check with our greatest understanding of a Divine Plan for Humanity, for other species and for the planet as a whole, inasmuch as we may have thus far discovered -- and understood one.

Some might want to simply toss this bone to the religious-minded, or to the "speculations of philosophers," as we like to say, but this is the kind of buck-passing which the scientist should not be permitted. Science, just as politics, economics and religion, has a responsibility to the greater whole ... and sometimes the hard questions must be addressed head-on. We cannot let vital questions about human origins be kicked back and forth like a soccer ball, each team apparently oblivious to the fact that that little orb actually veils (quite innocently, but necessarily) all the answers to the debate at hand -- plus the potential realization that that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The number five is a factor here, as it has everything to do with Intellect, or Mind ... and as I would have to argue that human evolution has been as carefully guided, nurtured, nourished and monitored as a set of loving parents -- of any nationality, any vocation and any religion -- would surely do the same for their newborn infant, premature for the purposes of the present example and thus temporarily supported by the miraculous invention of the incubator. Oh wait, animals have always had incubators. But you get the idea ...

Intelligent Design, Intelligent Guidance and a continued Intelligent Presence (both singular and plural at the same time) ... and furthermore a Loving One, with definite Purpose, and a Plan for working that Purpose out though the vehicle of expression of a planet. Every, single individual, and even every, single lifeform on this beautiful blue planet counts ... and that's affirmed in the Biblical statement of the Lord's awareness of a fallen sparrow, and further that the hairs on our head are numbered (Matthew 10:30).

Is there proof of such statements? Of course there is. But how can such things be shared in one fell swoop, when we argue over trifling little things like dinosaur bones. The absurdity of what we have heard does make you want to roll your eyes, on the one hand, but what about the indignation which the person of faith (be that Christian, Muslim, Pagan or non-specified) must suffer when the die-hard skeptic, the materialist and reductivist steps into the arena?

With a few choice words, the reverential atmosphere, the very aura of both mystery and knowing, familiarity and awe seems to vanish, parodied and rendered superfluous, childish and absurd, by the oh-so-superior and supposedly obvious conclusions of our senses, and "rational mind."

-- There is no invisible man in the sky, there are no magical winged creatures flitting about doing good deeds as bells ring, and surely when we look at the enormity of it all, the sheer complexity of what nature has produced, and reconcile the many successes with the equally staggering number and variety of failures ... clearly there is no room to entertain an unsupported & undefensible blind faiith in a method to all the madness?

The last, desperate cry of the materialist being the most ironic, as he himself knows, deep down, that he cannot fail to see the ever-present pattern, and Order behind all of nature, anywhere and everywhere he might happen to look!

Am I bored on a Sunday afternoon? Or does the lawn really just need mowing? Hmmm. Both.

God practices Eugenics, and I'm afraid if we caught an inner glimpse of the guidance we've received (and resisted, even rejected and revolted against) over the past several million years, we might wonder that we still have a planet at all. Why have we been permitted this wonderful and some say undeserved Blessing? Undeserved, yes, but we should remember that all life is created for a Purpose -- not to blindly fight it out, despite that this often appears to be the case, and certainly seems to result. The world, as much as we are able to reflect the Divine Order, is just, and fair, and in balance or harmony, each part with the other, all parts with the whole. Where this is not the case, we can look no further than ourselves for the blame, and either we are all in this together ... or there is nothing worth fighting, living, dying or loving for -- and the sooner we put our hands together, and release this towel we seem to have, the better.

The simple version is, yes, evolution has been guided to the greatest extent without our direct assistance, up to this point. Now, that is beginning to change. And in some ways, though we might be tempted to say small ways -- they are small, but are of critical importance -- in some small ways at least, we cannot move much further until we DO take responsibility for our place and part in the pageant of life. Science has its Achilles Heel just as do the other disciplines, and perhaps it is the easier for the religious-minded to spot it ... yet a similar weakness manifests in the refusal to bring the many tales and morality plays of Sacred Scripture into the light of modern scientific discovery -- and in many cases, Reason Itself.

We are like the residents of the Cave, doin' fine watchin' shadows on the wall ... and the lunatic raving about the Sunlight is mad as a march hare. He's nothing new. They come and go, and disturb our ways ... but eventually they leave us in peace, and let us go on with -- hmmm
 
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