Easter Pagan
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Nisan and Rosh Chodesh Nisan - In Relation to Other Months of the Yeardidymus said:I give, when is it?
1 Nisan (30 days - Rosh Chodesh always 1 day)
2 Iyar (29 days)
3Sivan
4 Tammuz
5 Av
6 Elul
7 Tishrei
8 Cheshvan
9 Kislev
10 Tevet
11 Shevat
12 Adar (29 days - "Adar" preceding Nisan (I or II) always only 29)
Ask me what all that means and I'm going to smack you Didymus...
v/r
Q
well you can put your dukes down Q, i wasn't going to ask you. I am not very familiar with these months and dates. the information i receive is from jewish scholars. They claim there is a clear issue with Jesus being crucified and tried during a passover feast and holiday. they believe this never would have transpired as told in the gospels for this reason. I don't claim to be well versed in this area but have read some of their books. it's an interesting point.
Scarlet Pimpernel
demned elusive
Wandering for a moment back to the OP, German also uses a related term (Ostern) - not surprising, as she was a Teutonic goddess. What might be an odder question is why while two Germanic languages use a Germanic term, the others I am familiar with use a word derived from the Hebrew (Danish paaske, Dutch Pasen).gluadys said:
We now return you to your regularly scheduled tangent.
If you would like to know the Jewish date, check out this site:
http://www.jewfaq.org/current.htm
The Gregorian calendar differs from the Jewish one so the date's not the same every year.
http://www.jewfaq.org/current.htm
The Gregorian calendar differs from the Jewish one so the date's not the same every year.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, all!
Thank you for the great participation!
Many cultures from the period of time in question, the beginning of the institution of Passover, and even later, began their New Year at the Spring Equinox. I have heard the concept in general called “Judicial Astrology”, but one could also call it applied astronomy. The camp of the Israelites was oriented by the cardinal points; North, South, East and West. When the sun rose directly East, on the day of equal length day and night, it marked the beginning of the New Year. Using solar reckoning, Nisan 1 was the Spring Equinox. In the Temple period, as I recall, the New Year was marked by the sun rising directly framed by the East Gate of the city wall and entering the Temple through the Eastern door. This only happened perfectly at that specific time of year, and again at the Autumnal Equinox. Passover, originally was reckoned from the Spring Equinox. I am open to correction by a more learned Jewish person, but that is my understanding.
The traditional Jewish calendar now in use is a lunar calendar, but my understanding is that prior to the Babylonian captivity, this was not so. Again, I could stand correction, but this is my understanding.
A question I have for you, dauer, is: when and why is the Jewish New Year now in September?
Thank you for the great participation!
I just spent a little time in my Strong’s trying to look it up, and all of the key words have so many references I can’t find the one I’m looking for right now. It’s really late and I just finished a double shift, so I’m going to have to go by memory. It’s been a long time, so I am open to correction.Didymus said:
Many cultures from the period of time in question, the beginning of the institution of Passover, and even later, began their New Year at the Spring Equinox. I have heard the concept in general called “Judicial Astrology”, but one could also call it applied astronomy. The camp of the Israelites was oriented by the cardinal points; North, South, East and West. When the sun rose directly East, on the day of equal length day and night, it marked the beginning of the New Year. Using solar reckoning, Nisan 1 was the Spring Equinox. In the Temple period, as I recall, the New Year was marked by the sun rising directly framed by the East Gate of the city wall and entering the Temple through the Eastern door. This only happened perfectly at that specific time of year, and again at the Autumnal Equinox. Passover, originally was reckoned from the Spring Equinox. I am open to correction by a more learned Jewish person, but that is my understanding.
Now, first I have to qualify by saying I am not much more versed than the rest of you here, but I do have a bit to add. This, by my understanding, is the lunar reckoning still in use today, but not originally. Count 12 times 29 (moon cycles from new moon to new moon), plus one (Rosh Chodesh), and you get 349 days. The problem is there are 365.25 days (approx) to a solar year, leaving a shortfall of 16.25 days. Which is why, I presume, that the lunar calendar wanders all over the place compared to the solar calendar. This is also why every so often a 13th month is added to "catch up" so to speak. Islam uses the same or similar method, but the beginning date is from the time of Mohammed.Quahom1 said:
Right they are to take issue with the assumption that Christ was crucified on Passover. The Torah gives explicit instructions pertaining to the proper observance, including not being defiled (made unclean) by the body of a dead person. Which is why I have never thought Christ died on Passover, he died as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the afternoon before Passover. Jesus’ uncle Joseph was in a hurry to claim the body and have it buried properly in time to be legitimately observant.Didymus said:
Actually, this was brought up by another earlier:Scarlet Pimpernel said:
And it does raise some interesting issues. I have heard some scholars suggest that the Saxons derived their name from “Isaac’s sons”, a reference to at least some of the lost tribes. While the Germanic tribes may likely have descended from the (disowned) tribe of Dan, evidenced by many of the Teutonic place names throughout Europe, such as Danmark and the Danube River.Gluadys said:
Yes, but the Gregorian calendar is a correction of the Julian calendar. When Pope Gregory gave the “go-ahead” for the calendrical correction calculated by the Jesuit Monk Christopher Clavius, it called for (as I recall) something like ten days being removed from the calendar. I don’t have my notes handy, but I seem to recall this took place in the Catholic countries in the mid-1500’s. England was a bit slow adopting the correction, but came around in the 1700’s. It was almost 1900 before Russia finally adopted the Gregorian correction.Dauer said:
The traditional Jewish calendar now in use is a lunar calendar, but my understanding is that prior to the Babylonian captivity, this was not so. Again, I could stand correction, but this is my understanding.
A question I have for you, dauer, is: when and why is the Jewish New Year now in September?
Scarlet Pimpernel
demned elusive
Well, that sounds fine, but in lots of European languages the Danube is called something very un-Dan-like: Donau (German), Dounavis (Greek), Dunav (Serbian), to name a few. I really don't think Danube is a Teutonic place name at all, but the French version of an eastern European one, borrowed by English-speakers.juantoo3 said:
So then what do you make of the discrepancy in the Bible. Synoptics claim he was crucified on the 15 Nisan. Gospel of John says Nisan 14. If it was indeed on Nisan 14 wouldn't this rule out the last supper as a passover meal?juantoo3 said:
This is a little complicated because the calendar that was in use is unusual in that it did not have a fixed date for the beginning of the year. It was defined by the barley growth, whenever that happened. It stopped during the Babylonian Exile and the names of the months on the Jewish calendar now are actually Babylonian. Tamuz is the name of one month. The most information you will find on that online I think is from the Karaites, who returned to the system of sighting the barley. But they can also be very polemical at times. I don't remember which site is very polemical and which site is a little less. If you explore their site you can find out a little more about Rosh Hashanah changing too, although it might be a bit slanted.
http://www.karaite-korner.org/abib.shtml
The calendar in use now is both lunar and solar. I'm not sure if it was always that way or not.
When exactly? The sages said many days were new years, just for different things like the new year for kings and festivals, the new year for tithing animals, the new year for the year, the new year for trees. There was apparently a Babylonian coronation festival at the same time of year and that could be what made this new year so important. But what I found on an Orthodox site I will quote:
http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=86
But I think it was something that developed gradually from what was happening in the time of the Torah, to the time of Ezra, and then forward. If there was a specific reason for the change, I'm not familiar with it.
Dauer
I read somewhere that the word used for bread relating to the last supper refers to regular bread and not unleavened bread, and while this could be a translational error, I wonder if this might also suggest it was the day before Pesach? Maybe they were trying to get rid of the leftover hametz before Pesach?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Scarlet Pimpernel! Oh yes, welcome to CR!
I do need to qualify myself, because I am not a linguist. Having said this, my information does come from a couple of different linguists, specifically Rev. Alexander Hyslop in his book "The Two Babylons," (who is supported in his conclusions by a host of noted anthropologists), and the teaching of Dr. Arnold Murray. Transliteration, the transfer of a name into another language by modifying it to the mechanics of the adopted language, would show that your point against me is actually in my favor. Take a look at the names you list, and allow for the fact that vowel sounds are very frequently assigned different values in other languages, and what you have is: D - (vowel) - N. These still point to Dan.
I do appreciate your point, because these you brought forward were unfamiliar to me. It is entirely possible I have the Teutonic connection mistaken, but the connection with Dan is pretty evident from a linguistic standpoint.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.Scarlet Pimpernel said:
I do need to qualify myself, because I am not a linguist. Having said this, my information does come from a couple of different linguists, specifically Rev. Alexander Hyslop in his book "The Two Babylons," (who is supported in his conclusions by a host of noted anthropologists), and the teaching of Dr. Arnold Murray. Transliteration, the transfer of a name into another language by modifying it to the mechanics of the adopted language, would show that your point against me is actually in my favor. Take a look at the names you list, and allow for the fact that vowel sounds are very frequently assigned different values in other languages, and what you have is: D - (vowel) - N. These still point to Dan.
I do appreciate your point, because these you brought forward were unfamiliar to me. It is entirely possible I have the Teutonic connection mistaken, but the connection with Dan is pretty evident from a linguistic standpoint.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Didymus!
Thank you for your post!
Thank you for your post!
Ah, discrepencies! We could bring in a whole lot of angles and arguments and eventually get nowhere, all the while never finding the factual truth. The Last Supper was not a Passover meal, it took place during the evening before, the period of time I understand is called the preparation. Christ is our Passover not because of the meal, which was a representation or figure of what was to come, but because he was sacrificed for us at the same time the lambs were being ritually sacrificed. Communion, of which the Last Supper is considered to be the first, is done in remembrance of His sacrifice.didymus said:
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, dauer!
Thank you for the thoughtful post!
Thank you for the link, it was helpful. It reminds me of an old farmer's adage of not planting corn until "the leaves on the oaks are the size of a squirrel's ears." The lunar cycle does play an important role in how the cycle of nature unfolds, and I suspect that is a fundamental tenet in nature based religions such as the Babylonians would have had. Perhaps this was somehow instituted into the Jewish calculations, but that would be speculation on my part.
I haven't had the time to look deeper into the Torah to look for the passages I learned from, perhaps soon, but it looks to be an involved study. And it became evident to me as I made my last post that the consideration of the sun rise being framed by the eastern entrance to the Temple could not have been in the Torah, more likely it is found in Chronicles or Kings.
This helps explain a few things I have long had questions about. Thanks.
Very interesting! I took a moment with my Interlinear and Strong's and looked at Luke 22. Verse 7 mentions the coming days of unleavened bread (easily understood as Didymus sees this, but I stand by my POV that the days were approaching, as in "festival season" as it were). Yet later in the same chapter, when Jesus breaks the loaf with the disciples, it is a raised loaf, sometimes called shewbread. A raised loaf would not be allowed in the house during the Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread. This reaffirms my POV. Thanks. I did not look into the other Gospels for comparison, too strapped for time.
Thank you for the thoughtful post!
dauer said:
Thank you for the link, it was helpful. It reminds me of an old farmer's adage of not planting corn until "the leaves on the oaks are the size of a squirrel's ears." The lunar cycle does play an important role in how the cycle of nature unfolds, and I suspect that is a fundamental tenet in nature based religions such as the Babylonians would have had. Perhaps this was somehow instituted into the Jewish calculations, but that would be speculation on my part.
I haven't had the time to look deeper into the Torah to look for the passages I learned from, perhaps soon, but it looks to be an involved study. And it became evident to me as I made my last post that the consideration of the sun rise being framed by the eastern entrance to the Temple could not have been in the Torah, more likely it is found in Chronicles or Kings.
This helps explain a few things I have long had questions about. Thanks.
Very interesting! I took a moment with my Interlinear and Strong's and looked at Luke 22. Verse 7 mentions the coming days of unleavened bread (easily understood as Didymus sees this, but I stand by my POV that the days were approaching, as in "festival season" as it were). Yet later in the same chapter, when Jesus breaks the loaf with the disciples, it is a raised loaf, sometimes called shewbread. A raised loaf would not be allowed in the house during the Passover and Feast of Unleavened bread. This reaffirms my POV. Thanks. I did not look into the other Gospels for comparison, too strapped for time.
Ah, discrepencies! We could bring in a whole lot of angles and arguments and eventually get nowhere, all the while never finding the factual truth. The Last Supper was not a Passover meal, it took place during the evening before, the period of time I understand is called the preparation. Christ is our Passover not because of the meal, which was a representation or figure of what was to come, but because he was sacrificed for us at the same time the lambs were being ritually sacrificed. Communion, of which the Last Supper is considered to be the first, is done in remembrance of His sacrificice.
Juantoo3
Point well taken. Are you aware that the synoptics state that the last meal was indeed a passover meal?
And on the first day of the unleavened Bread, when they sacraficed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"... And the disciples...prepared the Passover. And when it was evening he came with the 12. And,...they were at the table eating... (Mark 14:12-17, Matt 26:17-21, Luke 22:7-14)
Juantoo3
Point well taken. Are you aware that the synoptics state that the last meal was indeed a passover meal?
And on the first day of the unleavened Bread, when they sacraficed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"... And the disciples...prepared the Passover. And when it was evening he came with the 12. And,...they were at the table eating... (Mark 14:12-17, Matt 26:17-21, Luke 22:7-14)
juantoo3 said:
Actually, the earlier Jewish religion was very earth-based. Pesach in the spring is a time of not only freedom but as seen cyclically on the Jewish calendar, re-freedom when coming out of the darkness of winter and entering now into the spring. Shavuot was a harvest festival. Sukkot was also a harvest festival for the fall this time. It has been suggested the portable huts were used by workers in the fields originally. Shemini Ateret comes just before the winter, and the rains pour down.
The months were always lunar. That's actually why the Karaites spot the moon. They reject the oral Torah and accept only the written Torah. You can read what they say about it here:
http://www.karaite-korner.org/new_moon.shtml
Originally this too was not exact. New moon meant the first sighting of the moon. At some point this became regulated in Jerusalem and other walled cities. The other people would be alerted by lighting bonfires along the hilltops. But at a time of sectarian unrest another group, perhaps samaritans, began lighting their own bonfires to confuse people and the time was switched to the astronomical new moon and intercalated.
I think the popular theory is that the original religion was nature based and cyclical. Later, the sacred history was combined with pre-existing holidays. While the sukkah took on the linear meaning of wandering in the desert, it retained its cyclical connection to nature and the harvest. In addition, the very idea of the sukkah could be seen as preparation for the winter months ahead. I think it is really exile that has made Judaism less of a nature religion. The distance from the land and also many urban environments.
A book that explores the connections between nature and the Jewish calendar is Seasons of our Joy. It also covers the origins of the holidays based on popular scholarly opinion. But it isn't primarily a book of scholarship and also talks about practice today and other things as well.
I'd be interested in seeing that if you find it.
Dauer
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Didymus!
I think if you will look at my response to Dauer, you will see that I did take a moment to look at Luke. I'm pressed for time just now, hopefully soon I can return to this a little better prepared. I would like you to consider the quote you made, "...prepare for you to eat the Passover?" This does not necessarily mean the Passover meal itself, although I think in the minds of the disciples that were getting ready to hunker down for a few days and enjoy the season. This was the evening of preparation for the Passover. The preparation, as a good Jew could tell you better than I, is when the house is cleared of hametz, of leaven. ALL leaven from all sources is to be removed from the house, in accord with ths instructions for observance in the Torah (Exodus I think, is the primary source, but my quick check last night included reference in Deuteronomy and Numbers). Consider that it was leavened bread (*greek "artos", #740 in the Strong's) that was broken and offered, at least in Luke, which would not be present if this were the actual Passover meal. Also consider a whole host of other considerations leading up to and including Jesus' trial, conviction, being sent before Pilate, the execution, the hastening of the malefactor's deaths by breaking their legs (it was not unusual to leave the condemned hanging from the cross for days before their eventual death), and the hurried burial of Jesus by Joseph. All of these, and there are a great many, point to a hurried trial, conviction, execution and burial before the High Holy Day of Passover. The Sanhedrin were strict legalists if nothing else, to perform this civil legal act on the day of Passover was absolutely not acceptable. (They wouldn't even walk through a field of grain on an ordinary Sabbath for fear of catching grains in their hems, and thus being considered guilty of working on the Sabbath! How much less they would "work" on the High Holy Day!) There are books available that address these things far better than I, although right now I am at a loss to remember the titles and authors. Hope this helps.
I think if you will look at my response to Dauer, you will see that I did take a moment to look at Luke. I'm pressed for time just now, hopefully soon I can return to this a little better prepared. I would like you to consider the quote you made, "...prepare for you to eat the Passover?" This does not necessarily mean the Passover meal itself, although I think in the minds of the disciples that were getting ready to hunker down for a few days and enjoy the season. This was the evening of preparation for the Passover. The preparation, as a good Jew could tell you better than I, is when the house is cleared of hametz, of leaven. ALL leaven from all sources is to be removed from the house, in accord with ths instructions for observance in the Torah (Exodus I think, is the primary source, but my quick check last night included reference in Deuteronomy and Numbers). Consider that it was leavened bread (*greek "artos", #740 in the Strong's) that was broken and offered, at least in Luke, which would not be present if this were the actual Passover meal. Also consider a whole host of other considerations leading up to and including Jesus' trial, conviction, being sent before Pilate, the execution, the hastening of the malefactor's deaths by breaking their legs (it was not unusual to leave the condemned hanging from the cross for days before their eventual death), and the hurried burial of Jesus by Joseph. All of these, and there are a great many, point to a hurried trial, conviction, execution and burial before the High Holy Day of Passover. The Sanhedrin were strict legalists if nothing else, to perform this civil legal act on the day of Passover was absolutely not acceptable. (They wouldn't even walk through a field of grain on an ordinary Sabbath for fear of catching grains in their hems, and thus being considered guilty of working on the Sabbath! How much less they would "work" on the High Holy Day!) There are books available that address these things far better than I, although right now I am at a loss to remember the titles and authors. Hope this helps.
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Juantoo3 I reviewed it again and the language seems pretty clear that they ate a passover meal.
Luke 22:14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the 12 apostles with him.15 Then he said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
Mark 14:14........'The Teacher says, "where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with my disciples?"......16...... and they prepared the Passover. 17 In the evening He came with the twelve.18 Now as they sat and ate......
Matthew basically says the same thing. Like I said I am not an expert in this area and therefore can not defend all aspects of this arguement. I obtain my information from the books of Jewish scholars who can argue it from a Jewish perspective. Peace.
Luke 22:14 When the hour had come, He sat down, and the 12 apostles with him.15 Then he said to them, "With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer;
Mark 14:14........'The Teacher says, "where is the guest room in which I may eat the Passover with my disciples?"......16...... and they prepared the Passover. 17 In the evening He came with the twelve.18 Now as they sat and ate......
Matthew basically says the same thing. Like I said I am not an expert in this area and therefore can not defend all aspects of this arguement. I obtain my information from the books of Jewish scholars who can argue it from a Jewish perspective. Peace.
M
mosherosh
Guest
Oh, delicious hot-cross buns, raisin cakes for the Goddess..oops, the Grain God who has died in winter only to be resurrected in Spring as the new "Bread of Life".
It's nearly funny to see believers swallowing myths taken as real history, nearly funny except for the tragic history of the Abrahamics who act on their myths. Judaism creates its own Spring time celebration supposedly not that awful Pagan stuff by fabricating the myth of Moses and the Exodus, and then Christians come along and recreate another supposedly un-Pagan celebration but tip their hand by calling it "Easter" after Ishtar who's 3 day journey into the Abyss to rescue Marduk matches Jesus 3 day descent into hell. Try as monotheistic Abrahamics may, they just cannot undo the Pagan influences within both Judaism and Christianity. In fact, if all the pagan references and influences were stripped from the Bible, it would look like it had gone through a shredder.
Hooray for Spring! Whatever way we celebrate it!
It's nearly funny to see believers swallowing myths taken as real history, nearly funny except for the tragic history of the Abrahamics who act on their myths. Judaism creates its own Spring time celebration supposedly not that awful Pagan stuff by fabricating the myth of Moses and the Exodus, and then Christians come along and recreate another supposedly un-Pagan celebration but tip their hand by calling it "Easter" after Ishtar who's 3 day journey into the Abyss to rescue Marduk matches Jesus 3 day descent into hell. Try as monotheistic Abrahamics may, they just cannot undo the Pagan influences within both Judaism and Christianity. In fact, if all the pagan references and influences were stripped from the Bible, it would look like it had gone through a shredder.
Hooray for Spring! Whatever way we celebrate it!
M
mee
Guest
the thing is its not in the bible,(easter) its the traditions of the church , its nothing to do with the bible ,if a person follows the bible it does not have any of these pagan influences attached to its worship, the churches have got a lot to answer for in the coming judgement(great tribulation)so for me i am going to stay right away from mixing pagan with true worship .and not celebrate easter. only the memorial of jesus death is what jesus said to keep doing in memorial of him.mosherosh said:
C
Conscience
Guest
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law, which the Bible says, "is a precursa of things to come." Chrisitans celebrate Easter, which is a celebration of our risen Lord who rose on first fruits.