Nisan and Rosh Chodesh Nisan - In Relation to Other Months of the Yeardidymus said:I give, when is it?![]()
Wandering for a moment back to the OP, German also uses a related term (Ostern) - not surprising, as she was a Teutonic goddess. What might be an odder question is why while two Germanic languages use a Germanic term, the others I am familiar with use a word derived from the Hebrew (Danish paaske, Dutch Pasen).gluadys said:What is more of a puzzle is why, when most European languages use a form of the Hebrew term for passover as the name of the Christian festival (Fr. Paques, Ital. Pascua, etc.) English ended up using the name of a pagan goddess.
I just spent a little time in my Strong’s trying to look it up, and all of the key words have so many references I can’t find the one I’m looking for right now. It’s really late and I just finished a double shift, so I’m going to have to go by memory. It’s been a long time, so I am open to correction.Didymus said:I give, when is it?
Now, first I have to qualify by saying I am not much more versed than the rest of you here, but I do have a bit to add. This, by my understanding, is the lunar reckoning still in use today, but not originally. Count 12 times 29 (moon cycles from new moon to new moon), plus one (Rosh Chodesh), and you get 349 days. The problem is there are 365.25 days (approx) to a solar year, leaving a shortfall of 16.25 days. Which is why, I presume, that the lunar calendar wanders all over the place compared to the solar calendar. This is also why every so often a 13th month is added to "catch up" so to speak. Islam uses the same or similar method, but the beginning date is from the time of Mohammed.Quahom1 said:Nisan and Rosh Chodesh Nisan - In Relation to Other Months of the Year
1 Nisan (30 days - Rosh Chodesh always 1 day)
2 Iyar (29 days)
3Sivan
4 Tammuz
5 Av
6 Elul
7 Tishrei
8 Cheshvan
9 Kislev
10 Tevet
11 Shevat
12 Adar (29 days - "Adar" preceding Nisan (I or II) always only 29)
Right they are to take issue with the assumption that Christ was crucified on Passover. The Torah gives explicit instructions pertaining to the proper observance, including not being defiled (made unclean) by the body of a dead person. Which is why I have never thought Christ died on Passover, he died as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the afternoon before Passover. Jesus’ uncle Joseph was in a hurry to claim the body and have it buried properly in time to be legitimately observant.Didymus said:They claim there is a clear issue with Jesus being crucified and tried during a passover feast and holiday. they believe this never would have transpired as told in the gospels for this reason.
Actually, this was brought up by another earlier:Scarlet Pimpernel said:Wandering for a moment back to the OP, German also uses a related term (Ostern) - not surprising, as she was a Teutonic goddess. What might be an odder question is why while two Germanic languages use a Germanic term, the others I am familiar with use a word derived from the Hebrew (Danish paaske, Dutch Pasen).
And it does raise some interesting issues. I have heard some scholars suggest that the Saxons derived their name from “Isaac’s sons”, a reference to at least some of the lost tribes. While the Germanic tribes may likely have descended from the (disowned) tribe of Dan, evidenced by many of the Teutonic place names throughout Europe, such as Danmark and the Danube River.Gluadys said:What is more of a puzzle is why, when most European languages use a form of the Hebrew term for passover as the name of the Christian festival (Fr. Paques, Ital. Pascua, etc.) English ended up using the name of a pagan goddess.
Yes, but the Gregorian calendar is a correction of the Julian calendar. When Pope Gregory gave the “go-ahead” for the calendrical correction calculated by the Jesuit Monk Christopher Clavius, it called for (as I recall) something like ten days being removed from the calendar. I don’t have my notes handy, but I seem to recall this took place in the Catholic countries in the mid-1500’s. England was a bit slow adopting the correction, but came around in the 1700’s. It was almost 1900 before Russia finally adopted the Gregorian correction.Dauer said:The Gregorian calendar differs from the Jewish one so the date's not the same every year.
Well, that sounds fine, but in lots of European languages the Danube is called something very un-Dan-like: Donau (German), Dounavis (Greek), Dunav (Serbian), to name a few. I really don't think Danube is a Teutonic place name at all, but the French version of an eastern European one, borrowed by English-speakers.juantoo3 said:While the Germanic tribes may likely have descended from the (disowned) tribe of Dan, evidenced by many of the Teutonic place names throughout Europe, such as Danmark and the Danube River.
So then what do you make of the discrepancy in the Bible. Synoptics claim he was crucified on the 15 Nisan. Gospel of John says Nisan 14. If it was indeed on Nisan 14 wouldn't this rule out the last supper as a passover meal?juantoo3 said:Right they are to take issue with the assumption that Christ was crucified on Passover. The Torah gives explicit instructions pertaining to the proper observance, including not being defiled (made unclean) by the body of a dead person. Which is why I have never thought Christ died on Passover, he died as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the afternoon before Passover. Jesus’ uncle Joseph was in a hurry to claim the body and have it buried properly in time to be legitimately observant.
The traditional Jewish calendar now in use is a lunar calendar, but my understanding is that prior to the Babylonian captivity, this was not so. Again, I could stand correction, but this is my understanding.
A question I have for you, dauer, is: when and why is the Jewish New Year now in September?
The year begins on different dates for different purposes: in Nisan, for dating a king's reign; in Elul, for giving tithes from cattle; in Tishrei, for numbering the years and for giving tithes from crops; in Shevat, for giving tithes from the fruit of trees (Mishnah Rosh Ha-Shanah 1:1). We number the months of the year from Nisan, but the number of the year itself changes in Tishrei. The fact that Nisan is the first month is explicit in the written Torah (Ex. 12:2), and the fact that the years are counted from Tishrei is in the oral Torah (an undisputed statement in the Mishnah).
Thank you for the thoughtful reply.Scarlet Pimpernel said:Well, that sounds fine, but in lots of European languages the Danube is called something very un-Dan-like: Donau (German), Dounavis (Greek), Dunav (Serbian), to name a few. I really don't think Danube is a Teutonic place name at all, but the French version of an eastern European one, borrowed by English-speakers.
Ah, discrepencies! We could bring in a whole lot of angles and arguments and eventually get nowhere, all the while never finding the factual truth. The Last Supper was not a Passover meal, it took place during the evening before, the period of time I understand is called the preparation. Christ is our Passover not because of the meal, which was a representation or figure of what was to come, but because he was sacrificed for us at the same time the lambs were being ritually sacrificed. Communion, of which the Last Supper is considered to be the first, is done in remembrance of His sacrifice.didymus said:So then what do you make of the discrepancy in the Bible. Synoptics claim he was crucified on the 15 Nisan. Gospel of John says Nisan 14. If it was indeed on Nisan 14 wouldn't this rule out the last supper as a passover meal?
dauer said:This is a little complicated because the calendar that was in use is unusual in that it did not have a fixed date for the beginning of the year. It was defined by the barley growth, whenever that happened. It stopped during the Babylonian Exile and the names of the months on the Jewish calendar now are actually Babylonian. Tamuz is the name of one month. The most information you will find on that online I think is from the Karaites, who returned to the system of sighting the barley.
http://www.karaite-korner.org/abib.shtml
The calendar in use now is both lunar and solar. I'm not sure if it was always that way or not.
When exactly? The sages said many days were new years, just for different things like the new year for kings and festivals, the new year for tithing animals, the new year for the year, the new year for trees. There was apparently a Babylonian coronation festival at the same time of year and that could be what made this new year so important. But what I found on an Orthodox site I will quote:
http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=86
But I think it was something that developed gradually from what was happening in the time of the Torah, to the time of Ezra, and then forward. If there was a specific reason for the change, I'm not familiar with it.
I read somewhere that the word used for bread relating to the last supper refers to regular bread and not unleavened bread, and while this could be a translational error, I wonder if this might also suggest it was the day before Pesach? Maybe they were trying to get rid of the leftover hametz before Pesach?
juantoo3 said:Thank you for the link, it was helpful. It reminds me of an old farmer's adage of not planting corn until "the leaves on the oaks are the size of a squirrel's ears." The lunar cycle does play an important role in how the cycle of nature unfolds, and I suspect that is a fundamental tenet in nature based religions such as the Babylonians would have had. Perhaps this was somehow instituted into the Jewish calculations, but that would be speculation on my part.
I haven't had the time to look deeper into the Torah to look for the passages I learned from, perhaps soon, but it looks to be an involved study. And it became evident to me as I made my last post that the consideration of the sun rise being framed by the eastern entrance to the Temple could not have been in the Torah, more likely it is found in Chronicles or Kings.
the thing is its not in the bible,(easter) its the traditions of the church , its nothing to do with the bible ,if a person follows the bible it does not have any of these pagan influences attached to its worship, the churches have got a lot to answer for in the coming judgement(great tribulation)so for me i am going to stay right away from mixing pagan with true worship .and not celebrate easter. only the memorial of jesus death is what jesus said to keep doing in memorial of him.mosherosh said:Oh, delicious hot-cross buns, raisin cakes for the Goddess..oops, the Grain God who has died in winter only to be resurrected in Spring as the new "Bread of Life".
It's nearly funny to see believers swallowing myths taken as real history, nearly funny except for the tragic history of the Abrahamics who act on their myths. Judaism creates its own Spring time celebration supposedly not that awful Pagan stuff by fabricating the myth of Moses and the Exodus, and then Christians come along and recreate another supposedly un-Pagan celebration but tip their hand by calling it "Easter" after Ishtar who's 3 day journey into the Abyss to rescue Marduk matches Jesus 3 day descent into hell. Try as monotheistic Abrahamics may, they just cannot undo the Pagan influences within both Judaism and Christianity. In fact, if all the pagan references and influences were stripped from the Bible, it would look like it had gone through a shredder.
Hooray for Spring! Whatever way we celebrate it!