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juantoo3 said:
I like those stories that leave warm fuzzy feelings... Thanks.
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I have a question. If one archeologist claims a temple before man could even make pottery or stone tools (11,000 year ago), and another claims tools found with burial mounds that are hundreds of thousands of years old, and Plato insisted that Atlantis was a city of lightening and wonder, indoor plumbing and night time lights throughout the city (40,000 years ago)...who is right?
 
Quahom1 said:
I have a question. If one archeologist claims a temple before man could even make pottery or stone tools (11,000 year ago), and another claims tools found with burial mounds that are hundreds of thousands of years old, and Plato insisted that Atlantis was a city of lightening and wonder, indoor plumbing and night time lights throughout the city (40,000 years ago)...who is right?
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Hi, Q!

I suppose an archeologist can claim anything they like, but usually when one makes claims that don't fit in the "established" order of things, other archeologists are likely to present some serious challenges and non-supportive critiques. For instance, it is well established that stone tools have been around longer than 11000 years...a lot longer. And this is supported and reinforced across many multiple examples examined by many and varied archeologists and anthropologists. On the other hand, I guess it would depend which burial mounds one is referencing...I believe the ones in Ohio and Indiana for example are dated at least 5 thousand years ago and probably more, but the Mound Builder culture is still a bit of a mystery, and seems (much like the Anasazi) to have ended rather abruptly. By contrast, the burial mounds in Ireland are comparatively more recent.

"(H)undreds of thousands of years old" implies to me at least 2 hundred thousand years, and the established train of thought at this time in archeology as I understand it, modern humans (including H. Neandertalensis, H. Erectus and H. Heidelbergensis) were using fire and exceedingly primitive tools (unworked bone, stone and sticks) right at 200 thousand years ago.

http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/species.htm

Atlantis is a mystery that makes for a good bedtime story. I admit to some intriguing possibilities and I have long wanted to see evidence of Atlantis...but so far there is nothing in the archeological record to support it (other than some tantalizing linguistic cues from Central America). If there were some highly advanced civilization long before our own, there would be some kind of evidence laying about. We haven't found their trash dumps yet, and I hope we never find their nuclear waste "facilities."

The oldest indoor plumbing I have read about is the 10 thousand year old restroom facilities in the Orkney Islands.

This looks like an interesting anthropological resource:

http://www.archaeologyinfo.com/
 
juantoo3 said:
Hi, Q!

I suppose an archeologist can claim anything they like, but usually when one makes claims that don't fit in the "established" order of things, other archeologists are likely to present some serious challenges and non-supportive critiques. For instance, it is well established that stone tools have been around longer than 11000 years...a lot longer. And this is supported and reinforced across many multiple examples examined by many and varied archeologists and anthropologists. On the other hand, I guess it would depend which burial mounds one is referencing...I believe the ones in Ohio and Indiana for example are dated at least 5 thousand years ago and probably more, but the Mound Builder culture is still a bit of a mystery, and seems (much like the Anasazi) to have ended rather abruptly. By contrast, the burial mounds in Ireland are comparatively more recent.

"(H)undreds of thousands of years old" implies to me at least 2 hundred thousand years, and the established train of thought at this time in archeology as I understand it, modern humans (including H. Neandertalensis, H. Erectus and H. Heidelbergensis) were using fire and exceedingly primitive tools (unworked bone, stone and sticks) right at 200 thousand years ago.

Human evolution - A look at human origins through species profiles and hominid imagery

Atlantis is a mystery that makes for a good bedtime story. I admit to some intriguing possibilities and I have long wanted to see evidence of Atlantis...but so far there is nothing in the archeological record to support it (other than some tantalizing linguistic cues from Central America). If there were some highly advanced civilization long before our own, there would be some kind of evidence laying about. We haven't found their trash dumps yet, and I hope we never find their nuclear waste "facilities."

The oldest indoor plumbing I have read about is the 10 thousand year old restroom facilities in the Orkney Islands.

This looks like an interesting anthropological resource:

Human Evolution Archaeology human origins hominid species images
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Hmm, perhaps not Juan. I was watching TLC/History Channel and their program about life after man. They pointed out the fact that the farther a society evolves and becomes technically advanced, the more refined and economically minded their structures become, which means the easier it is to reclaim man's work back to the basic elements, if man is not there to maintain said structures.

Case in point: The Romans used concrete that was without reinforcement (rebarb as you know), but was denser than the concrete used today. Iron rebarb will not rust as long as the alkaline in the concrete protects it, but after 50 years concrete today, loses its alkaline, and the rebarb begins to rust, which destroys the cohesiveness of the surrounding concrete...down comes our sky scrapers and bridges and such.

The Eiffel Tower (made of wrough iron) must be painted every seven years, to protect it's integrity. Without that upkeep, the iron in the tower would dissolve within 150 years, resulting in total collapse.

Ashphalt roads without a concrete base, would dissolve within 200 years.

Sky scrapers may look like they are made of glass (which can last for ever), but their skeletons are made of steel...200 years.

CDs are good for 100 years.
magnetic tape is good for 10 years.
Library books-100 years in a dry environment (acid in the paper)
plastic-1000 years, but not in any condition that one would recognize.
brick (reclaimed brick), about 500 years.
Cars, 50 years, their steel frames 150 years.

The only reason we have a history and knowledge of folks like the Mayans and Egyptians, is because they carved it in stone...

In fact, the only thing that an observer from 10,000 years from now would see and wonder about in the US would be in the Black hills of South Dakota...and they would have no idea who's faces they were looking at, nor would they be able to discern the details of the faces there.
 
Quahom1 said:
Hmm, perhaps not Juan. I was watching TLC/History Channel and their program about life after man. They pointed out the fact that the farther a society evolves and becomes technically advanced, the more refined and economically minded their structures become, which means the easier it is to reclaim man's work back to the basic elements, if man is not there to maintain said structures.

The only reason we have a history and knowledge of folks like the Mayans and Egyptians, is because they carved it in stone...

In fact, the only thing that an observer from 10,000 years from now would see and wonder about in the US would be in the Black hills of South Dakota...and they would have no idea who's faces they were looking at, nor would they be able to discern the details of the faces there.
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I think I saw that program.

And like the grade school explanation of evolution, it leaves out a lot of "contradictory" detail. You're an engineer, you know what I'm about to say:

Environment plays a factor...in hot humid acidic environments you are right, most everything "rusts." But in hot dry alkyline environments, or cold environments (especially relatively dry cold environments) and in anaerobic environments the decay mechanisms can be substantially reduced and even eliminated. Disposable diapers full of baby poop will last 500 years in a landfill! 500 years is nothing to an archeologist, but it should say something about how non-challant (sp?) we are of polluting our environment for our grandchildren's grandchildren.

Even if the Eiffel Tower were to crumble, there would be evidence of its remains for many thousands of years.

Sure, a lot of evidence of our existance would simply corrode and vanish and leave little or no trace. But I would be willing to bet there will be millions of coffee mugs and tea cups scattered across the realm of modern civilization. And glass, from plate glass and table tops, to auto windshields, to beer bottles.

And gold, silver, and platinum jewellery with every manner of gemstones, including "man-made" ones (not sure about zircons, but cultured rubies, sapphires, emeralds and diamonds..you bet!) will still be around if not exactly abundant. Coins too, even if unrecognizable.

And human bones. I wouldn't be surprized if...because of modern mortuary practices and embalming...in addition to the wide consumption of preservatives in prepared and packaged food...that there will be an ample supply of "mummies" left behind by us here now.


And in extremely arid and extremely cold places, there will be a lot that remains, plenty to give clues about us.

Oh, and about Mt. Rushmore...George's face would have fallen off for sure. It's hanging on by a thread right now, and has been for some time. Stone Mountain in Georgia might stand a bit better chance, harder stone...
 
juantoo3 said:
I think I saw that program.

...
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Good points all. The History channel should check with engineers before siding with theoretical scienists.

I stand corrected. Thanks Juan, you took my pessimistic thought of the future and turned it. :D

v/r

Josh

p.s. but then, that is one of the reasons you, are here for.
 
I mean, could you imagine a few thousand years out stumbling on a mummy of an American man buried in a stainless steel coffin in the late '70's or early '80's in a polyester bell bottom suit? I can hear that anthropologist now saying, "what on earth were they thinking???"
 
Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine said:
something that might make up for the last one I posted: Obsession with Naked Women Dates Back 35,000 Years - Yahoo! News

Phyllis Sidhe_Uaine
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LOL! Why Phyllis, I didn't know you had it in you to consider prehistoric porno!

Just goes to show, some things never change... ;)

I think the one that surprized me was the Egyptian hieroglyphs that were clearly pornographic...I mean what else can you call an oversized phallus wielding hieroglyph parading for the world to see on the inside wall of some temple somewhere?

I was too shocked (it was in my more prudish days) to even try to remember any of the details... :D
 
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