Dor
Bible Thumper
So we finally get to the bottom line and that is you think that the Bible and Christianity has to adjust to you?
What do you believe about End Times?
- Thread starter quakeyjase
- Start date
Dream
Well-Known Member
You pointed me to Ezekiel 38, so I looked it up in Zondervan & Hal Lindsey's Late Great Planet Earth in the section called 'Russia is a Gogue'. The idea that this is Russia launching nukes likely came from US citizens worried about nuclear engagement with Russia. There are many who feel that Ezekiel 38:2 is about Russia attacking Israel, although I don't feel convinced.
Using the concordance: In Ezekiel 38:2 There seems a play on the meaning of the words 'Meshec' and 'Tubal', which mean 'Drawing out' and 'Thou shall be brought' respectively. The entire chapter is sprinkled with references to bringing out, bringing back, etc. Ezekiel 38:2-3 has overtones something like (concordance transcription) "Adam, face the mountain in the land, the land of God, the chief captain drawing out you shall be brought prophesy speaks LORD God, chief of the drawing out--the thou shalt be brought." This connects into the official (and much better) translation of the next verse: "And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:" 'Gog' by itself could mean 'Mountain' and 'Land of Magog' means 'Land of God' or perhaps 'eretz land of God'. Ez 38 does talk about people of the north, but it may not be about Russia.
What is interesting to me is the mountain, or 'Gogue' and the descriptions of bringing out, gathering in, etc; all of which hum to the Bible's basic themes. The message of John the Baptist (and Jesus) is that 'Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low' (Isaiah 40:4), and I remember Jesus saying "...if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done."(mat 21:21) These are messages of freedom in Christ and destruction of false religious authority, but they are not uniquely from the ministry of John and Jesus. The message amounting to freedom of religion comes from Deut 4:7 "7 For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as the LORD our God is to us, whenever we call upon him?".
Dream
Well-Known Member
See any similarities between the following verses?
- Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, On that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
- Rev. 6:12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
- Ezekiel 38:20 the fish of the sea, and the birds of the air, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the cliffs shall fall, and every wall shall tumble to the ground.
- Colossians 1:23 ...not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
- Revelation 6:16 calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb;
- Ezekiel 38:21 I will summon every kind of terror against Gog, says the Lord GOD; every man's sword will be against his brother.
- Matthew 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring
peace, but a sword.
S
sonoman
Guest
So we finally get to the bottom line and that is you think that the Bible and Christianity has to adjust to you?
Christianity is blessed in my opinion with a profound lack of monotheistic doctrine. There has never been one single "Christianity". Gnosticism can be traced fairly easily to prior JC with John the Baptist followers, one sect of such still exists, Mandeans in Iraq, and their baptist theology is classical gnosticism.
Because of the lack of uniformity in Christian beliefs that existed right from the beginning, Paul too testifies to major differences in Christian doctrines, as does Revelation, every Christian believer must choose to believe a "Jesus Christ" and a "Christianity" that they were led to, by whatever means. Many intellectual Christians past and present, choose to follow Jesus with their minds matching their hearts and that requires knowledge of God, i.e., "gnosis". It's the path I follow and it's not traditional (Pauline) Christianity, but what is "traditional" when one's intellectual Christian roots were cut off at an early stage and only now return? You just can't expect such people to stay within "tradition" when "tradition" killed their traditions.
M
mee
Guest
REV 6;12-13
Literal earthquakes are often preceded by seismic disturbances that cause dogs to bark or act skittishly and excite other animals and fish, though humans may be unsuspecting until the actual quake strikes.
So when it comes to the symbolic earthquake spoken of in the book of revelation , there sure have been lots of disturbances going on .
Literal and figurative quakings of the earth are mentioned a number of times in the Bible.
In his great prophecy about the sign of his presence in Kingdom power, Jesus forecast "earthquakes in one place after another." These would be part of "a beginning of pangs of distress."
Since 1914, with earth’s population exploding into the thousands of millions, literal temblors have contributed significantly to the distresses of our times. (Matthew 24:3, 7, 8)
Nevertheless, even though they fulfill prophecy, those earthquakes have been natural, physical disasters.
They are preliminary to the great symbolic earthquake of Revelation 6:12. This, indeed, comes as the devastating finale to a series of advance tremors that shake Satan’s human earthly system of things to its foundations.
yes since 1914 much has happened , and many tremors in human society have have been felt in more ways than one .
stock-market crashs ,
the Great Depression, ect, ect. its all happening in the last days
Literal earthquakes are often preceded by seismic disturbances that cause dogs to bark or act skittishly and excite other animals and fish, though humans may be unsuspecting until the actual quake strikes.
So when it comes to the symbolic earthquake spoken of in the book of revelation , there sure have been lots of disturbances going on .
Literal and figurative quakings of the earth are mentioned a number of times in the Bible.
In his great prophecy about the sign of his presence in Kingdom power, Jesus forecast "earthquakes in one place after another." These would be part of "a beginning of pangs of distress."
Since 1914, with earth’s population exploding into the thousands of millions, literal temblors have contributed significantly to the distresses of our times. (Matthew 24:3, 7, 8)
Nevertheless, even though they fulfill prophecy, those earthquakes have been natural, physical disasters.
They are preliminary to the great symbolic earthquake of Revelation 6:12. This, indeed, comes as the devastating finale to a series of advance tremors that shake Satan’s human earthly system of things to its foundations.
yes since 1914 much has happened , and many tremors in human society have have been felt in more ways than one .
In 1980 statesman Harold Macmillan, reflecting on the peaceful start of the 20th century, said: "Everything would get better and better. This was the world I was born in. . . . Suddenly, unexpectedly, one morning in 1914 the whole thing came to an end." thats what he said
also World War II brought another wave of upheavals.
And smaller wars along with international terrorism continue to shake the earth.
The fearful threat of terrorists or states using weapons of mass destruction has many people wondering.
Other things besides wars, though, have shaken human society to its foundations since 1914.
yes upheavals and upheavals also World War II brought another wave of upheavals.
And smaller wars along with international terrorism continue to shake the earth.
The fearful threat of terrorists or states using weapons of mass destruction has many people wondering.
Other things besides wars, though, have shaken human society to its foundations since 1914.
stock-market crashs ,
the Great Depression, ect, ect. its all happening in the last days
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
That's a really interesting point. I often think the same about Celtic Christianity, though it seems to have had a bit more influence (at least among the Anglican church) than gnosticism did.
S
sonoman
Guest
The first shall be last and the last shall be first.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Ive been giving a whole lot of thought about this whole wrathful God thing. Let me put this into its proper context for the purpose of reflection from how I see it.
God who is the creator of all that is... created everything perfect to His will. Add into that mix one prideful over the top angel that thought he should me more than what he was who did everything that he could to mess up this perfect creation. Now God created mankind to love Him and worship Him and have a relationship with Him. He created US to NEED HIM. But... the world went bad and the world worshiped everything and everyone but Him. Except for one family He found that loved Him... for those He provided an escape plan...
So He destroyed the World and none believed He would. So He started over with a fresh new clean world and promised to never destroy it the same way again.. Now time goes on and He gives His Son for this world to SAVE this world from itself and from the enemy that wants to destroy it. He wanted there to be an open door to Him so that those that chose to Love Him and His Son could have that open door for a personal relationship to a God that had only before been forever separated by Sin.
So now theres an Escape Plan.. but once again we have a world that is loving and worshiping everyone and everything except Him and He says that once and for all he will start over but remember He plainly offers an Escape Plan and gives the world thousands of years to accept that Escape by accepting His son Jesus Christ. Now you can either believe Him and what He said in the Bible. Or you not believe Him but whose fault would it be when He does destroy this world and the world still refuss that Escape Plan that He offers freely to everyone...
It seems to me that a wrathful God isnt so hard to accept under the circumstances... I would never call Him a pushover... So the world would have to accept the odds considering the condition of it and the prophecies that continue to come true... that He might be telling the truth. A refusal to accept it and shutting eyes tight in the dark to avoid the bad thing doesnt mean the bad thing goes away.
But... this is not a salvation issue.. to believe a wrathful God might be an aspect He has is not implausible for myself... After all He created us in His image. He created emotions in us that Im sure He has Himself. I have felt my share of wrath thats for sure.
So one can certainly have accepted that Escape Plan which is our Lord Jesus Christ and not believe that God might destroy His creation.. so its ok.
Im just putting something up for discussion.
God who is the creator of all that is... created everything perfect to His will. Add into that mix one prideful over the top angel that thought he should me more than what he was who did everything that he could to mess up this perfect creation. Now God created mankind to love Him and worship Him and have a relationship with Him. He created US to NEED HIM. But... the world went bad and the world worshiped everything and everyone but Him. Except for one family He found that loved Him... for those He provided an escape plan...
So He destroyed the World and none believed He would. So He started over with a fresh new clean world and promised to never destroy it the same way again.. Now time goes on and He gives His Son for this world to SAVE this world from itself and from the enemy that wants to destroy it. He wanted there to be an open door to Him so that those that chose to Love Him and His Son could have that open door for a personal relationship to a God that had only before been forever separated by Sin.
So now theres an Escape Plan.. but once again we have a world that is loving and worshiping everyone and everything except Him and He says that once and for all he will start over but remember He plainly offers an Escape Plan and gives the world thousands of years to accept that Escape by accepting His son Jesus Christ. Now you can either believe Him and what He said in the Bible. Or you not believe Him but whose fault would it be when He does destroy this world and the world still refuss that Escape Plan that He offers freely to everyone...
It seems to me that a wrathful God isnt so hard to accept under the circumstances... I would never call Him a pushover... So the world would have to accept the odds considering the condition of it and the prophecies that continue to come true... that He might be telling the truth. A refusal to accept it and shutting eyes tight in the dark to avoid the bad thing doesnt mean the bad thing goes away.
But... this is not a salvation issue.. to believe a wrathful God might be an aspect He has is not implausible for myself... After all He created us in His image. He created emotions in us that Im sure He has Himself. I have felt my share of wrath thats for sure.
So one can certainly have accepted that Escape Plan which is our Lord Jesus Christ and not believe that God might destroy His creation.. so its ok.
Im just putting something up for discussion.
Gnosticism can also be called Free Mason, or Rosicrucian, since both think the same way about Christ's importance, and think they precede the Redeemer. That is why gnosticism never flew within Christianity.
If one knows all, what is the purpose of Christ to begin with?
Ah, yes. An ornament as a baby to hang on a tananboum during winter fest...
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Is it wrath, or euthanasia?
Faithful, I have a question about your explanation above. I thought that angels did not have free will, so I always wondered how Satan could choose to disobey God.
As far as I can discern, the story of the Fall does not really explain where the imperfection came from that allowed the temptation of Eve to occur in the first place. It just kind of pushes the question back a step by saying there already existed a tempter in the Garden.
And as for the Revelation of St. John being part of the Bible, I think it is interesting that it is placed at the end of the Bible, closing out the overarching theme of the Bible: Creation, Sin, Judgement, Repentence, and Redemption. The same pattern is seen in small cycles and larger ones spanning the the whole OT and the whole Bible as we have it as Christians.
My thoughts on the topic are that we really don't know, on one hand, why sin and alienation came to be part of the lot of humanity, although God cares enough that He does pay attention (judge), expect more, and offer rescue. On the other hand, looking at it from the POV of a scientist who accepts the ToE, it's easy to see how we came to be so self-centered. It is a survival strategy. I suppose that's another objection one could have against evolution, in that it is a brutal, heartless manner by which to create.
However, I think difference and struggle are part and parcel of existence and growth. I agree with the idea that 'being' is better than non-being, and to have self-conciousness of being requires separation and a sense of other. So, creation must have imbalance and separateness as part of it. If it was perfect then it too would be God, eternal and non-changing.
I don't know if this is a perfectly Christian idea, but it seems to me that in order to create, God chose to limit Himself in creation. Thus, imperfection is a necessary by-product of creation (created good, very good, but not perfect, so goodness does not equal perfection), but that in itself does not mean evil must occur. God gave up some control of the matter so that we could exist, and love.
2 rambling c
Faithful, I have a question about your explanation above. I thought that angels did not have free will, so I always wondered how Satan could choose to disobey God.
As far as I can discern, the story of the Fall does not really explain where the imperfection came from that allowed the temptation of Eve to occur in the first place. It just kind of pushes the question back a step by saying there already existed a tempter in the Garden.
And as for the Revelation of St. John being part of the Bible, I think it is interesting that it is placed at the end of the Bible, closing out the overarching theme of the Bible: Creation, Sin, Judgement, Repentence, and Redemption. The same pattern is seen in small cycles and larger ones spanning the the whole OT and the whole Bible as we have it as Christians.
My thoughts on the topic are that we really don't know, on one hand, why sin and alienation came to be part of the lot of humanity, although God cares enough that He does pay attention (judge), expect more, and offer rescue. On the other hand, looking at it from the POV of a scientist who accepts the ToE, it's easy to see how we came to be so self-centered. It is a survival strategy. I suppose that's another objection one could have against evolution, in that it is a brutal, heartless manner by which to create.
However, I think difference and struggle are part and parcel of existence and growth. I agree with the idea that 'being' is better than non-being, and to have self-conciousness of being requires separation and a sense of other. So, creation must have imbalance and separateness as part of it. If it was perfect then it too would be God, eternal and non-changing.
I don't know if this is a perfectly Christian idea, but it seems to me that in order to create, God chose to limit Himself in creation. Thus, imperfection is a necessary by-product of creation (created good, very good, but not perfect, so goodness does not equal perfection), but that in itself does not mean evil must occur. God gave up some control of the matter so that we could exist, and love.
2 rambling c
Revelation was a final choice during the first Vatican council. The arguement for and against adding it to the biblia was about fifty/fifty. In the end, the vote for adding it was recorded at 55 percent, and it became the last book. But it was not without hard feelings, or uneasiness.Is it wrath, or euthanasia?
Faithful, I have a question about your explanation above. I thought that angels did not have free will, so I always wondered how Satan could choose to disobey God.
As far as I can discern, the story of the Fall does not really explain where the imperfection came from that allowed the temptation of Eve to occur in the first place. It just kind of pushes the question back a step by saying there already existed a tempter in the Garden.
And as for the Revelation of St. John being part of the Bible, I think it is interesting that it is placed at the end of the Bible, closing out the overarching theme of the Bible: Creation, Sin, Judgement, Repentence, and Redemption. The same pattern is seen in small cycles and larger ones spanning the the whole OT and the whole Bible as we have it as Christians.
My thoughts on the topic are that we really don't know, on one hand, why sin and alienation came to be part of the lot of humanity, although God cares enough that He does pay attention (judge), expect more, and offer rescue. On the other hand, looking at it from the POV of a scientist who accepts the ToE, it's easy to see how we came to be so self-centered. It is a survival strategy. I suppose that's another objection one could have against evolution, in that it is a brutal, heartless manner by which to create.
However, I think difference and struggle are part and parcel of existence and growth. I agree with the idea that 'being' is better than non-being, and to have self-conciousness of being requires separation and a sense of other. So, creation must have imbalance and separateness as part of it. If it was perfect then it too would be God, eternal and non-changing.
I don't know if this is a perfectly Christian idea, but it seems to me that in order to create, God chose to limit Himself in creation. Thus, imperfection is a necessary by-product of creation (created good, very good, but not perfect, so goodness does not equal perfection), but that in itself does not mean evil must occur. God gave up some control of the matter so that we could exist, and love.
2 rambling c
However John's revelation was not the only one being considered. There was also Peter's version, Matthew's version, and a bevy of others...
To their credit though, the Vatican made no changes in the original manuscript. What you see is what you get.
If you want to see the other versions, look up the apocrypha.
v/r
Q
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Um, no where does it say in the bible that angels do not have free will. It simply states that man was made a little lower than angels...
now back to our regularly scheduled program...
Thank you Josh. Not sure where I heard that. Perhaps it is more part of Jewish angeology?
S
sonoman
Guest
Gnosticism did fly within the Christian community. To me, the Gospel of John is a gnostic text, one that expresses the Good News in terms of a mystical relationship that you really do need spiritual knowledge to comprehend. To me and to others John's Gospel is an answer to Thomas' and the gnostic Christians who were going with the blind Demiurge and screwed up Creation gnostic ideology one finds in "classical" gnosticism. Once you know that Creation and God are good and the reasons why they are good, then the classical Gnostic position is false doctrine, teaching the wrong message about the world and humanity's role in it.
See? The bible has something for everyone...
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
Hi Luna
In response to your post. I have never heard that angels do not have free will... All I know is that they certainly had the choice over God and satan hence the ones that were cast down. We can also read in Job that satan was in heaven having dialogue with God over how much he could affect poor Jobs life and God having bragged like a proud father over His beloved and righteous Job. satan tore this mans life apart as much as the Almighty would let him. But there had to be some choice there to my thinking.
I take Revelation to be the in the right place because Genesis is the beginning and Revelation is the end preluding to the new beginning. We as humans being created the way we are tend to think along the lines of beginning and ending. We do not have an understanding of a beginning without an end.. does that make sense? So I think God in His infinite wisdom gave us what we could understand. The story of the beginning the middle and the story of the end. Because the end could not be Jesus dying and ascending to heaven ... then all His disciples dying martyrs deaths. Right?
In response to your post. I have never heard that angels do not have free will... All I know is that they certainly had the choice over God and satan hence the ones that were cast down. We can also read in Job that satan was in heaven having dialogue with God over how much he could affect poor Jobs life and God having bragged like a proud father over His beloved and righteous Job. satan tore this mans life apart as much as the Almighty would let him. But there had to be some choice there to my thinking.
I take Revelation to be the in the right place because Genesis is the beginning and Revelation is the end preluding to the new beginning. We as humans being created the way we are tend to think along the lines of beginning and ending. We do not have an understanding of a beginning without an end.. does that make sense? So I think God in His infinite wisdom gave us what we could understand. The story of the beginning the middle and the story of the end. Because the end could not be Jesus dying and ascending to heaven ... then all His disciples dying martyrs deaths. Right?
lunamoth
Episcopalian
Hi Luna
In response to your post. I have never heard that angels do not have free will... All I know is that they certainly had the choice over God and satan hence the ones that were cast down. We can also read in Job that satan was in heaven having dialogue with God over how much he could affect poor Jobs life and God having bragged like a proud father over His beloved and righteous Job. satan tore this mans life apart as much as the Almighty would let him. But there had to be some choice there to my thinking.
I take Revelation to be the in the right place because Genesis is the beginning and Revelation is the end preluding to the new beginning. We as humans being created the way we are tend to think along the lines of beginning and ending. We do not have an understanding of a beginning without an end.. does that make sense? So I think God in His infinite wisdom gave us what we could understand. The story of the beginning the middle and the story of the end. Because the end could not be Jesus dying and ascending to heaven ... then all His disciples dying martyrs deaths. Right?
Thanks Faithful. Now I'm going to go on wondering where I got that idea about angels. Anyway, in Job, at least, it still seems more like Satan is acting as God's asisstant, in the role of prosecuting attorney as I think is part of Jewish belief. He's kind of pointing out to God that if God must bless people for being faithful and good, then it's kind of like people having power over God. So God then goes on to show that 1, He does not have to bless anyone and 2, Job will continue to have faith anyway. It's not quid pro quo in either direction, but a relationship. But that's all off-topic from this thread. I just think Job is interesting.
I agree with you about Rev. being the ending to the story.
Faithfulservant
Well-Known Member
wowz on the Job view.. I never heard of it like that either...
Well I think this is one of those things where we have to wait to ask Him later on face to face? rofl
Well I think this is one of those things where we have to wait to ask Him later on face to face? rofl
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
From what I understand, angels (in the Judaic tradition) did not have free will. This (plus my intuitive experience and the historical changes in concepts of Satan and hell that are proven through historical text and art) is why I believe angels never "fell" and Satan is not who a lot of people think he is.
Jesus was a Jew, speaking to Jews. I have a hard time believing He was talking about a totally different concept of angels and Satan and demons, but without ever explaining the changes they were to make in their beliefs about these things.
From the reading I've done (both in Judaism and from the conservative Christian texts), the Bible does not elaborate on either point of view. Technically, either could be correct interpretations of the relevant passages. However, I choose to believe that the Jews have the best interpretation of their own traditions, and Jesus being Jewish and speaking to Jews at the time, would be speaking from within this tradition. I also have never trusted a historical context in which it is clear that Pan/Cerrunos (the Pagan god of the wilderness and fertility) was made into Satan (horns, goat feet, and all!).
Anyhoo, that was an aside...
Jesus was a Jew, speaking to Jews. I have a hard time believing He was talking about a totally different concept of angels and Satan and demons, but without ever explaining the changes they were to make in their beliefs about these things.
From the reading I've done (both in Judaism and from the conservative Christian texts), the Bible does not elaborate on either point of view. Technically, either could be correct interpretations of the relevant passages. However, I choose to believe that the Jews have the best interpretation of their own traditions, and Jesus being Jewish and speaking to Jews at the time, would be speaking from within this tradition. I also have never trusted a historical context in which it is clear that Pan/Cerrunos (the Pagan god of the wilderness and fertility) was made into Satan (horns, goat feet, and all!).
Anyhoo, that was an aside...
S
sonoman
Guest
Speaking of Pan, and goat-gods, I admit I do get a chuckle out remembering somewhere that I read that the headwaters of the Jordan river and Sea of Galilee are springs dedicated to Baal Hadad I think it was, your basic ancient pagan Pan-goat god and model for the Devil.
Religious wars...now I know about an ancient religious war between Iranian and Hindu Brahmins where Iranian ones worshiped Surya, sun god and surya was the guiding Spirit of God for them, while for Hindu Brahmins it was Devas. So Iranian Brahminism spreads their war against Devas who become "devils" and the Devil when Judaism accepts Iranian dualism into its theology.
Surya does get around. Assyria, Syria, Asher, Asur-Osir, Osiris, the mythical founder of the ancient Egyptian pharaoh linage.
Religious wars...now I know about an ancient religious war between Iranian and Hindu Brahmins where Iranian ones worshiped Surya, sun god and surya was the guiding Spirit of God for them, while for Hindu Brahmins it was Devas. So Iranian Brahminism spreads their war against Devas who become "devils" and the Devil when Judaism accepts Iranian dualism into its theology.
Surya does get around. Assyria, Syria, Asher, Asur-Osir, Osiris, the mythical founder of the ancient Egyptian pharaoh linage.