Discovery of a Cup

I know where you are headed with this, Andrew. But keep in mind that the word "Christ" is the Greek word for Jewish term "Messiah". It is a title, not a name. And since Hellenistic Judaism developed around the 3rd century B.C., and with the subsequent publication of the Septuagent, the term "Christ" would have been common in the late 2nd century/early 1st century B.C. Couple this with the advent of an expectation of the Messiah during that time, and a slew of false Messiahs who rose and fell, this cup could have been anyone's guess.
 
Dondi said:
I know where you are headed with this, Andrew. But keep in mind that the word "Christ" is the Greek word for Jewish term "Messiah". It is a title, not a name. And since Hellenistic Judaism developed around the 3rd century B.C., and with the subsequent publication of the Septuagent, the term "Christ" would have been common in the late 2nd century/early 1st century B.C. Couple this with the advent of an expectation of the Messiah during that time, and a slew of false Messiahs who rose and fell, this cup could have been anyone's guess.
Click to expand...
Namaste Dondi,

two things.

first, you say it was common, yet the article claims this is the earliest reference ever found, still intriguing.

second, can anyone presuppose they know where Andrew is going with anything?

Andrew, love ya brother,

namaskar
 
wil said:
Namaste Dondi,

two things.

first, you say it was common, yet the article claims this is the earliest reference ever found, still intriguing.

second, can anyone presuppose they know where Andrew is going with anything?

Andrew, love ya brother,

namaskar
Click to expand...

That is the earliest that the word "Christ" has been found? Maybe archeologically. But the Septuagint was widely use as the Hebrew lasped into disfavor in the rise of the Greek culture, where "Christ" does appear, notably in Daniel 9:25-26:

και γνωση και συνησεις απο εξοδου λογου του αποκριθηναι και
του οικοδομησαι Ιερουσαλημ εως χριστου ηγουμενου εβδομαδες επτα και εβδομαδες
εξηκοντα δυο και επιστρεψει και οικοδομηθησεται πλατεια και τειχος και
εκκενωθησονται οι καιροι


και μετα τας εβδομαδας τας εξηκοντα δυο εξολεθρευθησεται χρισμα και
κριμα ουκ εστιν εν αυτω και την πολιν και το
αγιον διαφθερει συν τω ηγουμενω τω ερχομενω και εκκοπησονται εν
κατακλυσμω και εως τελους πολεμου συντετμημενου ταξει αφανισμοις

As far as anticipating Andrew, I happen to remember in his past posts that he expressed a belief that Jesus Christ was born circa 100 B.C., rather than the traditional 4 B.C., so naturally this discovery would hold a great interest to him.

Still, it is an interesting find.
 
You might find this paper interesting too, Dondi.

It is precisely when individuals rush forward so quickly and so zealously to squelch alternate interpretations and fresh investigations ... that we know something is amiss. So vigorous a defense of the status quo only suggests that there is something to hide. Further, it communicates the message, "We don't care what you discover, what you believe, what future evidence may indicate -- OUR minds are already made up!"

And this kind of attitude is why the bumper sticker was created that reads:
Minds are like parachutes; they only function when they're OPEN.
​
From Wiktionary:
closed-minded - unreceptive to new ideas or information
​
 
AndrewX said:
It is precisely when individuals rush forward so quickly and so zealously to squelch alternate interpretations and fresh investigations ... that we know something is amiss. So vigorous a defense of the status quo only suggests that there is something to hide.
Click to expand...
Vigorous defense of the status quo? Ha ha ha ha!!!! Somebody dared recognize your post in a friendly way and you backstabbed him for it -- case closed. But not having read all twenty four volumes of Theosophy makes him closed minded. If only he could read fast enough to see your point of view, so that he would never be closed minded again. Dondi, you embarrass us all with your flagrant closed mind. Open your ears, man and be put right!
 
Dream said:
Vigorous defense of the status quo? Ha ha ha ha!!!! Somebody dared recognize your post in a friendly way and you backstabbed him for it -- case closed. But not having read all twenty four volumes of Theosophy makes him closed minded. If only he could read fast enough to see your point of view, so that he would never be closed minded again. Dondi, you embarrass us all with your flagrant closed mind. Open your ears, man and be put right!
Click to expand...
Fall in, friend. I hear they need more wooden soldiers on the front lines ...

And no, what makes a person closed-minded should be obvious from the above definition. Care to say a few words about which stamped ideas are in your head, Dream?

Regardless, what will you do when the Truth comes along?

A question we might ask ourself each and every day ...
 
I would share this ...

the table that we prepare for another, is the table that we prepare for ourself

There is no way around that.

In preparing a feast, it never hurts to think of Who is being honored, and why.

A feast of friends, ALIVE she cried ... waitin for me - OUTSIDE

Just because I do not subscribe, doesn't mean that gazette doesn't bring the News. Do you recognize this same truth about your brother?

If you can't read my paper and find the standard, then by all means, stick to your own sources ...

But if we cannot move past a question of dates, or past matters of etiquette and proper courtesy, then we will never be able to discuss chrestos - christos - Christos ... and so forth?

I think that's a noble defense of Dondi, and if I was a bit rude, then I will challenge you to show me your Christian spirit - and seek to forgive, to understand, to look to be charitable and to show amity.

If you can do this as a Christian, then good for you. If you can do it as a Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan or atheist, then good for you. If you cannot do it at all, then it's time to learn. Maybe that's part of why I'm here?

And you? Will you show yourself a Christian, a Buddhist, an agnostic? It really doesn't matter what we believe, in many respects, so much as what we do with what we believe. If we can agree upon this truth, then we can learn to look past each other's mistakes, and even point out when there is room for improvement -- and the friction that is created can be quickly minimized, or otherwise put to productive use even without some of us even noticing, sometimes.

I hope you can see all of this, it's usefulness - and why it is so vital. Even if I do not fully honor it (and these are God's Laws, at least somewhat expressed, in simple terms), or Them, then at least I will uplift the Standard, and do my best to bear it. If you will not carry that flag, then tell me of a Standard you will bear.

I cannot always communicate as clearly or efficiently as I might wish. And there are so many ways to respond if such a situation arises.

When I post something about a new discovery, something very important and useful as new information for anyone interested in the early history of Christianity - not just as a faith, but on historical and archaeological evidence - then I would at least expect to see room created for discussion.

In Dondi's post, I do not see doors being opened. I do not see a warm reception, but then, I'm not sure Truth, or even change, is customarily greeted in such fashion ... yet. Much less those whom we have already learned to label, and whose ideas we have already set ourself against - as if the purpose of ideas was to sharpen them and use them for battle.

If you cannot lift your head and prick up your ears to hear the bells tolling, and affirm the TRUTH of Isiah 2:4 ...
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
​
... then do not be so quick to take an eye for eye.

All this talk of end times, and I wonder, do people understand just what these times are actually an end of?

If you do, then join me in affirming, "Let it start with me."

Namaskara ... In Light and Love,

Andrew
 
AndrewX said:
You might find this paper interesting too, Dondi.
Click to expand...

I hardly find the Jewish Gemarra, particularly the Sepher Toldos Jeshu, particularly since it was a specifically Jewish attempt to counter the new Christian movement. It attempts to *******ize Christ's legitimacy, and serves to discredit Jesus, something I would think that Theosophists, in attempt to exalt Jesus as some kind of Initiate, would try to avoid. Besides, it was written no earlier than the 3rd century A.D., and is admittedly mixed with rabbinical discussions, debates, diagreements, and hypothesises. Certainly not something one ought to base historical fact upon.

It is precisely when individuals rush forward so quickly and so zealously to squelch alternate interpretations and fresh investigations ... that we know something is amiss. So vigorous a defense of the status quo only suggests that there is something to hide. Further, it communicates the message, "We don't care what you discover, what you believe, what future evidence may indicate -- OUR minds are already made up!"

And this kind of attitude is why the bumper sticker was created that reads:
Minds are like parachutes; they only function when they're OPEN.
​
From Wiktionary:
closed-minded - unreceptive to new ideas or information
​
Click to expand...

I am not so closed minded as to think that this cup absolutely has to be an actual cup used by Jesus. I merely pointed out that one ought to proceed with caution before coming to such a conclusion. That, in fact, there may be alternate explanations.

On the other hand, if it had an inscription 'IESOUS' on it, you would have my full attention.
 
AndrewX said:
I will challenge you to show me your Christian spirit - and seek to forgive, to understand, to look to be charitable and to show amity.
Click to expand...
I have forgiven the Theosophists even for their unforgivable attempts to manipulate religion. I must also thrive on forgiveness, but I don't have to accept your bull about being open minded. Your movement has made so many destructive generation destroying mistakes, tinkering with the DNA of people's faith, presuming to speed up what you see as the evolution of the soul. At the same time, you insist we are evolving slowly and cannot change ourselves -- but we must embrace change as it comes from you! You go so far as to claim you work on Jewish principles, but you cannot even keep your own. No one is open minded, and anyone who claims they are is clearly misguided.
 
Dream said:
I have forgiven the Theosophists even for their unforgivable attempts to manipulate religion. I must also thrive on forgiveness, but I don't have to accept your bull about being open minded. Your movement has made so many destructive generation destroying mistakes, tinkering with the DNA of people's faith, presuming to speed up what you see as the evolution of the soul. At the same time, you insist we are evolving slowly and cannot change ourselves -- but we must embrace change as it comes from you! You go so far as to claim you work on Jewish principles, but you cannot even keep your own. No one is open minded, and anyone who claims they are is clearly misguided.
Click to expand...
Enough with the bitterness, prejudice and jaded attitude already. You understand zilch about Theosophy. If I am not a good exponent, then consider those who are instead of judging an entire movement by a lone bad apple.

I do not consider all of Christendom a failure, just because a tremendous portion of adherents are hypocrites and utterly mistaken about the facts, as I understand them. If anyone's to blame it's the power-hungry clergy, and various outspoken faux `authorities,' many of whom made their dent in Christ's Gospel some 1500 years ago.

My bone of contention runs deeper, far deeper than your prejudices and bitterness, Dream. I make the same mistakes, submit to the same human, personality weaknesses, and transgress just as you do when I judge others and fail to practice what I preach. I started this thread with a simple post about a cup that was discovered. No one bothered to ask me what my own thoughts were about it, but perhaps I was too quick to speak out when Dondi chose to reply ... as he did.

My challenge is to try and evoke a recognition, somehow, of the Universality of Christ. If your effort is to try and either demonstrate, or create some sort of exclusivity ... a `member's only club,' then I think you might want to question your motivations.

I can only imagine what it might be like on a planet, and in a society where every knee shall bow to Him, and every tongue shall confess. Again, you and Isaiah just don't wan't to get along. Ahh, those pesky Old Testament prophets.

Don't take it up with me, buddy. I didn't write those books. I just affirm the importance of rescusing the Bible from fundamentalism ... and bringing the Light of Intellect to bear, so that genuine, personal INSIGHTS might be had, for each of us, regarding the signficance of Gospel.

Insight may proceed from beyond the human intellect, but even MIND is an attribute, nay a Quality, an ASPECT of the Divine. From God's image were we created, and I'd say it's a pretty safe bet we aren't supposed to ignore the importance of Intelligence in seeking to understand God and interpret Sacred texts.

Dondi's discussion is at least focused along scholarly lines, and addresses the subject of the meaning of the word `christos.' Care to add something alone those lines, something about the subject of the OP, or do you want to just hang around and chew someone out because - like others - you find it easier to tear down, criticize and judge ... than to be positive, build up and heal?

Revelation ain't just a book in the Bible. But then, I do think it comes back to parachutes ...
 
I agree with your Theosophical article 7 volume 24 where it says that Christ means 'The Way', or 'Halacha' which is important in relation to the inscription on the cup. If the word 'GOISTAIS' means 'Magician' (as in a diviner), then the inscription may break the 10 commandments. The Oxford commentary on Deuteronomy says that one of the 10 commandments (the one that says not to use the LORD's name in vain) is possibly a prohibition against using the LORD's name in divination. If correct, that would make putting 'Christ' and 'Magician' together a big no-no, especially if the cup is for use in magical rites.

I think the article about the cup is very interesting, and the words on the cup made me think on first impulse that it was a communion cup. One of the people who commented, Bert Smith of Oxford University, disagreed on the translation thinking it might be a dedication to someone named Chrestos, which goes against my first impulse. On the other hand, the acheaologist discoverer suggests the inscription means 'Christ the magician'. I don't know Greek but searched for the Greek 'GOISTAIS' in the NT and the LXX. Couldn't find it unfortunately, and thats the limit of my Greek search facilities so no help there. I doubt the inscription refers to a 'Chrestos' like Smith suggests, when the first word is spelled like 'Christ'. Very interesting, possibly very important, discovery.
 
Thank you very much for your thoughts and comments, Dream.

What do you think about the idea of Christ as White Magician, where `magician' refers to anyone who seeks to create, Intelligently and Lovingly, in cooperation with God's Plan for the Earth ... and beyond?

In this sense, my understanding of Christ is that He is Supreme White Magician for our planet, as well as THE Hierophant of the Mysteries. In this way, Christ's words make sense to me when He states unequivocally, "No man comes to the Father except by (through) me."

The importance of the chalice or cup in the mystery tradition is long standing. In the Arthurian legend the symbolism is almost lost in the literal pursuit of an (supposed) actual vessel that Jesus of Nazareth might have used. For the esotericist, the chalice is the Soul, and our earthly incarnations are the gradual preparation to receive all that God offers to pour into us.

Christ says that His cup runneth over, He assures the Apostles that He is with them - even unto the end of the era ... and He also gives them clear indication of how they should proceed when they once again recognize His coming (see Luke 22:10 and Mark 14:13).

The cup in the article is an interesting discovery to me, no matter what its date of origin, possible ownership or the actual significance of the inscription. It is a symbol to me of the unearthing - and Restoration - of the Mysteries, which Christ promises as coinciding with His Reappearance.

Theosophists also believe that He cometh not alone, as in the dawning era we shall bear witness to His Teachers in every land, among every people and within every religion. Great disciples such as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mother Teresa have already served to reinvigorate, or pump fresh blood into the heart of Christianity. Or, since Christ is the heart, maybe we should say that these forerunners have served to oxygenate the blood.

At any rate, one symbol of the disciple seeking to serve could be seen as the individual with the prepared chalice raised overhead - to receive and distribute the Living Waters that are being poured forth ... which Christ says "runneth over." The priest, reverend or pastor during Communion or Eucharist still raises the cup for Benediction, in recognition of this living symbolism.

Much of the teaching I have studied is 20th Century esotericism, with its roots in 19th Century Theosophy as the modern revival of the Ancient yet Ageless Wisdom. The emphasis in recent decades has been especially upon the preparing of the Chalice, since the idea is that we are literally building the Temple (both individually and as a planet) that will be suitable for receiving the coming King.

I have a feeling many more discoveries are on the horizon for us, some as archaeolgoical artifacts, others a bit more interior. Either way, I hope that each can bring some positive meaning and useful revelation to us.

Namaskar,

~andrew
 
I admit I have not researched the workings of Theosophists or traced the roots of religious changes that are supposedly attributed to them and similar groups, and I know zilch about Theosophy.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top