Religion of not knowing

garro

garro

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I am new to the forum and just happened upon this site from a random web search. I would say that I’ve always been a bit of a spiritual person. I grew up in a Catholic country (Ireland) but have lived in a Buddhist country (Thailand) for well over a decade. For most of my adult life I would have classified myself as a Buddhist. My thinking is still grounded in Buddhism but my thought processes have taking a strange turning in the last few months. I’ve reached a point in my life where I just have to say that life is all just one big mystery that can’t be solved. The strange thing is that it just feels so right to take this new path. It is like the more I admit to not knowing the more I feel at peace.

I suppose it would be possible to say that I’ve become an agnostic but that doesn’t feel right. I have this strong sense that there is something more to the world than the material. For many years I’ve felt driven to look for spiritual answers that will allow me to transcend my current life. Now I’m starting to suspect that such a yearning is a big ungrateful. After all, if the universe is putting on this wonderful show the least I can do is enjoy it without having to know how it all works. I now strongly suspect that nobody really knows what is going on, and that is about as good as it gets.

I sort of feel a bit excited by new religion – the religion of not knowing. As I say in many ways I’m still in the Buddhist camp, but...

I wonder is there other people who have taken on not knowing as the key to their belief system? Is it possible to not know and still be considered a spiritual person? Where would I find fellow believers? I’m looking for a group of people who dismiss any claims of knowing for sure how the world works (that would include claims made by atheists). People who are willing to except the mystery for what it is. Does such a group of people exist?
 
garro said:
I am new to the forum and just happened upon this site from a random web search. I would say that I’ve always been a bit of a spiritual person. I grew up in a Catholic country (Ireland) but have lived in a Buddhist country (Thailand) for well over a decade. For most of my adult life I would have classified myself as a Buddhist. My thinking is still grounded in Buddhism but my thought processes have taking a strange turning in the last few months. I’ve reached a point in my life where I just have to say that life is all just one big mystery that can’t be solved. The strange thing is that it just feels so right to take this new path. It is like the more I admit to not knowing the more I feel at peace.

I suppose it would be possible to say that I’ve become an agnostic but that doesn’t feel right. I have this strong sense that there is something more to the world than the material. For many years I’ve felt driven to look for spiritual answers that will allow me to transcend my current life. Now I’m starting to suspect that such a yearning is a big ungrateful. After all, if the universe is putting on this wonderful show the least I can do is enjoy it without having to know how it all works. I now strongly suspect that nobody really knows what is going on, and that is about as good as it gets.

I sort of feel a bit excited by new religion – the religion of not knowing. As I say in many ways I’m still in the Buddhist camp, but...

I wonder is there other people who have taken on not knowing as the key to their belief system? Is it possible to not know and still be considered a spiritual person? Where would I find fellow believers? I’m looking for a group of people who dismiss any claims of knowing for sure how the world works (that would include claims made by atheists). People who are willing to except the mystery for what it is. Does such a group of people exist?
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Welcome to IO, garro. :)

This thread should be right up your alley:

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/tao-te-ching-chapter-20-a-14708.html
 
Thanks Seattlegal, I do like the idea of empty mind. I wonder how people experience such a way of living. I would imagine that it is easy for people to slip into the habit of thiking they know things again.
 
Knowing that we don't know and being comfortable with that is a very comfortable place. I catch grief around here for knowing what I do know, and knowing the line for what I don't know.

But it is my understanding that in Bhuddism there is quite a bit of acceptable unknowing, and non believing.... as answers from within are often criptic or at least not very translatable in our language?
 
IowaGuy said:
Hi Garro, this thread might also be of interest if you haven't read it yet:
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Thanks IowaGuy, I did find that thread earlier and it does sound interesting. From reading about it I wasn't sure if Spiritual Naturalist maintains a skeptical attitude towards science - acknowledging at least the possibility that science could be taking us up a blind alley because the truth might be unknowable.
 
wil said:
Knowing that we don't know and being comfortable with that is a very comfortable place. I catch grief around here for knowing what I do know, and knowing the line for what I don't know.

But it is my understanding that in Bhuddism there is quite a bit of acceptable unknowing, and non believing.... as answers from within are often criptic or at least not very translatable in our language?
Click to expand...


[FONT=&quot]Thanks Wii, I do think that it is acceptable to keep an attitude of unknowing in Buddhism. The problem I have with this is that there is a tendency (at least with me anyway) to use this attitude of not knowing as a means to get something; the hope that if I develop an attitude of ‘not knowing’ it will lead to enlightenment. I'm thinking about not knowing as the end of the path, and not a tool to get further along the path - if you know what I mean.[/FONT]
 
garro said:
I wasn't sure if Spiritual Naturalist maintains a skeptical attitude towards science - acknowledging at least the possibility that science could be taking us up a blind alley because the truth might be unknowable.
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garro - most scientists themselves would argue that there are no "absolute truths" in science. (truth is unknowable as you say)

For example, what is the "true" value of Hubble's constant? We will never know...

Have you read any of Einstein's writings on science/religion?
 
IowaGuy said:
garro - most scientists themselves would argue that there are no "absolute truths" in science. (truth is unknowable as you say)

For example, what is the "true" value of Hubble's constant? We will never know...
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Thanks IowaGuy, I suppose that my problem here is that it is so easy for people to become blinded by science. It has proved to be so successful that there is the temptation to grasp it as an absolute truth. I notice that there are those who are scientifically minded who squirm and get irritated when there is any mention of the non-material world; the idea that if it can't be proved by science then it is almost distasteful to mention it.


I haven't read enough of Einstein's writings; mabye I should investigate him more.
 
garro said:
[FONT=&quot]Thanks Wii, I do think that it is acceptable to keep an attitude of unknowing in Buddhism. The problem I have with this is that there is a tendency (at least with me anyway) to use this attitude of not knowing as a means to get something; the hope that if I develop an attitude of ‘not knowing’ it will lead to enlightenment. I'm thinking about not knowing as the end of the path, and not a tool to get further along the path - if you know what I mean.[/FONT]
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Welcome to the boards, garro! I'm of the mind that there is no end of the path, but rather a continual journey of discovery. I think when we stop searching for knowledge and understanding, we become complacent. I personally enjoy mental stimulation, but at the same time I understand that there are many things that remain largely unknown. I think knowing that you don't know keeps a person motivated to pursue further understanding.


With that being said, do you have a desire to gain further insight the more you live and learn, or would you prefer allowing yourself to idle? I prefer living and learning as I continue this journey of discovery. Knowing that I do not know enables me to keep an open mind, just as it provides a means for further growth. On one hand, I think it wise to empty one's self of the mental clutter, but on the other hand I think it wise to allow ourselves to think for ourselves and discover new things.


For instance, I personally view God to be reality/life/existence, and that we are on a continual journey within existence, forever learning and growing as we move forward in life as a people. I liken it to be a never ending quest to understand God as life, our reality. We've made great strides as a people in this quest to better understand life, and I am enjoying the ride for one, just as I enjoy the search for understanding and truth.


In light of how I view God, I think scientists may have a better understanding of God than many who are religious. Scientist base their views on reality (life/existence) instead of on ancient and supernatural systems of religious belief. Religion serves its purpose, however, and continues to fill the needs of its adherents, but in my opinion, science is the ultimate tool to truly understand God.


Most scientists would scoff at this idea, however. Even so, if God is truly life/existence/reality (as I believe) then I think science is the best tool to date through which we are able to better understand our Creator. That is why I suggest that we allow ourselves to further our knowledge base, as it ultimately brings humanity closer to understanding God (at least the material aspects of God). Where science falls short, perhaps religion fills the gap, or at least attempts to. The non material world is largely undiscovered as far as I can tell.
 
Gatekeeper said:
Welcome to the boards, garro! I'm of the mind that there is no end of the path, but rather a continual journey of discovery. I think when we stop searching for knowledge and understanding, we become complacent. I personally enjoy mental stimulation, but at the same time I understand that there are many things that remain largely unknown. I think knowing that you don't know keeps a person motivated to pursue further understanding.


With that being said, do you have a desire to gain further insight the more you live and learn, or would you prefer allowing yourself to idle? I prefer living and learning as I continue this journey of discovery. Knowing that I do not know enables me to keep an open mind, just as it provides a means for further growth. On one hand, I think it wise to empty one's self of the mental clutter, but on the other hand I think it wise to allow ourselves to think for ourselves and discover new things.


For instance, I personally view God to be reality/life/existence, and that we are on a continual journey within existence, forever learning and growing as we move forward in life as a people. I liken it to be a never ending quest to understand God as life, our reality. We've made great strides as a people in this quest to better understand life, and I am enjoying the ride for one, just as I enjoy the search for understanding and truth.


In light of how I view God, I think scientists may have a better understanding of God than many who are religious. Scientist base their views on reality (life/existence) instead of on ancient and supernatural systems of religious belief. Religion serves its purpose, however, and continues to fill the needs of its adherents, but in my opinion, science is the ultimate tool to truly understand God.


Most scientists would scoff at this idea, however. Even so, if God is truly life/existence/reality (as I believe) then I think science is the best tool to date through which we are able to better understand our Creator. That is why I suggest that we allow ourselves to further our knowledge base, as it ultimately brings humanity closer to understanding God (at least the material aspects of God). Where science falls short, perhaps religion fills the gap, or at least attempts to. The non material world is largely undiscovered as far as I can tell.
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Hi gatekeeper, one of my favorite quotes (no idea who originally said it) at the moment is that 'life is a mystery to be lived and not a problem to be solved'. I want to stop seeking and just enjoy the show for what it is. Picking up knowledge can be fun but I no longer believe that it can take me anywhere. Perhaps this really is as good as it gets. I suppose this means treating the claims of science and religion equally - they both sound interesting but ultimately I just don't know.


I hope this doesn’t sound like I’m advocating nihilism or denying life – I want to more fully embrace the idea that life is an unknowable mystery and this is what makes it so wonderful. I want to enjoy the magic show without insisting that the magician explains the tricks to me. I just have developed this deep certainty that this approach is the way for me to go in life.
 
garro said:
Hi gatekeeper, one of my favorite quotes (no idea who originally said it) at the moment is that 'life is a mystery to be lived and not a problem to be solved'. I want to stop seeking and just enjoy the show for what it is. Picking up knowledge can be fun but I no longer believe that it can take me anywhere. Perhaps this really is as good as it gets. I suppose this means treating the claims of science and religion equally - they both sound interesting but ultimately I just don't know.


I hope this doesn’t sound like I’m advocating nihilism or denying life – I want to more fully embrace the idea that life is an unknowable mystery and this is what makes it so wonderful. I want to enjoy the magic show without insisting that the magician explains the tricks to me. I just have developed this deep certainty that this approach is the way for me to go in life.
Click to expand...


Awesome may to look at life! Living each moment to the fullest, no questions, no need to understand the way stuff works, etc. It sounds like a wonderful way to approach life, actually. You'll not see me trying to convince you to live any other way, garro.


Enjoy the ride! :D
 
Gatekeeper said:
Awesome may to look at life! Living each moment to the fullest, no questions, no need to understand the way stuff works, etc. It sounds like a wonderful way to approach life, actually. You'll not see me trying to convince you to live any other way, garro.


Enjoy the ride! :D
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Thanks Gatekeeper, I hope this is a way of looking at life that I can maintain because it certainly simplifies things:)
 
garro said:
Thanks Gatekeeper, I hope this is a way of looking at life that I can maintain because it certainly simplifies things:)
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It will be difficult not to pick up a bit more understanding, but if you don't overly concern yourself with knowing, you'll probably pull it off just fine. Good luck to ya! :)
 
Gatekeeper said:
It will be difficult not to pick up a bit more understanding, but if you don't overly concern yourself with knowing, you'll probably pull it off just fine. Good luck to ya! :)
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Yeah, I've no problem with learning new things - in fact I love it. As you say, I just don't want to mistake learning with knowing.
 
garro said:
Yeah, I've no problem with learning new things - in fact I love it. As you say, I just don't want to mistake learning with knowing.
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Yup, I think continual learning knocks the socks off thinking we know all day long. When it comes to issues of faith, what the bleep do we know anyway? I like your attitude and your approach, garro. I hope life keeps you in awe! It almost reminds of when I was a child and how life looked to me then. It was full of magic and wonder, brilliant and colorful, but the older I became, the less magical life seemed to be. :sigh:
 
Gatekeeper said:
Yup, I think continual learning knocks the socks off thinking we know all day long. When it comes to issues of faith, what the bleep do we know anyway? I like your attitude and your approach, garro. I hope life keeps you in awe! It almost reminds of when I was a child and how life looked to me then. It was full of magic and wonder, brilliant and colorful, but the older I became, the less magical life seemed to be. :sigh:
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It is that magical childlike wonder that is the payoff for my approach. My life was just so much more enjoyable when I didn't have opinions about everything. It has felt that with each new opinion there was something new to feel angry about – that no longer feels like progress to me. I can remember a time when life was just life, people were just people, and I didn’t feel obligated to try and change any of it. I now want that back.
 
garro said:
It is that magical childlike wonder that is the payoff for my approach. My life was just so much more enjoyable when I didn't have opinions about everything. It has felt that with each new opinion there was something new to feel angry about – that no longer feels like progress to me. I can remember a time when life was just life, people were just people, and I didn’t feel obligated to try and change any of it. I now want that back.
Click to expand...


Yes, I know where you're coming from. Opinions lead to judgments, which often times lead to anger, etc. Why is it so difficult to just let others be? Why is it so difficult to simply live and let live? Sometimes I think we think we are sooo darn righteous and smart that it's o.k. to ridicule, criticize, and judge those who don't share our "opinions". I absolutely love the thought of returning to a child like mindset, one where we are once again able live our lives in awe of this magical world.
 
It is beautiful, it is the only true knowing: that you can't know anything.

It is very good, you are trusting existence, and ego is subsiding. Still there is a little clinging to the urge of mind to assert, but as you see that it is good you will know it is fine to stop this need to still steer... this is why you are questioning the change.

There will be some rocky waters ahead probably, just understand it is not happening to you, only the false need fear, but the false is very loud. Simply continue trusting, it is good.
 
Lunitik said:
It is beautiful, it is the only true knowing: that you can't know anything.

It is very good, you are trusting existence, and ego is subsiding. Still there is a little clinging to the urge of mind to assert, but as you see that it is good you will know it is fine to stop this need to still steer... this is why you are questioning the change.

There will be some rocky waters ahead probably, just understand it is not happening to you, only the false need fear, but the false is very loud. Simply continue trusting, it is good.
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Thanks Lunitik, it is amazing how such a simple change in my outlook makes the world appear so different. It is like by just admitting that " I don't know" the seeking has stopped. It seems too simple to be true, but that's what is happening.



I'm a big fan of mindfulness, but I've completely misunderstood what this is all about. I would sit there mindfully waiting for something special to happen - not realizing that something special is always happening.I've heard pepole talk about this before, but I just never really understood what they meant.


I suspect you are right about rocky days ahead, but I don’t mind this. It is like I’ve finally found the right path after being lost for so long. The funny thing is that this path isn’t going anywhere and that's pefectly fine :)
 
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