GlorytoGod
There is a River
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nice post Nick, as yet I have found no contradictions in the Bible just things that I dont yet understand.
Is Jesus the only way to God
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nice post Nick, as yet I have found no contradictions in the Bible just things that I dont yet understand.
Netti-Netti
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The fact of our imperfection does not absolve us of religious and moral duties.
My old friend Bob, who is in Heaven now, once said "Knowledge implies responsibility." In light of that observation, I note that the next verse in the Gospel of John after "I am the way..." reads as follows: "If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him." (John 14:7)
Philip continues his query about what it is to know Christ's nature. Jesus responds by describing the incarnation and then explains to Philip how its meaning will be known to the faithful:
"He who has my commandments, and keeps them, it is he who loves me; and he who loves me, shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will show myself to him."
To my way of thinking, this is the concept that is being developed here: a new potentiality for Being opens up to us through loving obedience to the heavenly Father. The life of Jesus was a living symbol for that. He made the meaning of obedience visible. His life was the embodiment of the way and the truth. Our lives can be, as well.
The loving obedience is in any choice we make and any action we take in the direction of "absolute letting be" (Karl Barth's term). My sense is that this "letting be" is nonsectarian and nondenominational. G-d doesn't have a religion.
Pico
Well-Known Member
I don't know about anything about your god, but the God of the Bible is a god who perfect and holy. No matter how many good things a person does doesn't change the fact that they sinned. God is so perfect and holy that he can not even look upon sin, none the less let sinners into his perfect home in heaven (for it wouldn't be perfect anymore).
God punishes sin, because He is righteous. Jesus died and paid the penalty for my sin and everyone else's. He saved me from my sin. I couldn't do that on my own. That's why we need him.
Hmmm...always interesting these statements. First line to me implies there are other G!ds, I don't understand this from a monotheist. As for the third line I don't see G!d as being able to see sin, an all powerful G!d would surely be able to look upon sin, but a righteous G!d would be able to see our perfection and not the sin. (as for the part in the quotes, this is exactly what one astronomer was executed for by the early church, he and five monks recorded a super nova, when he said it was a new star, it was herecy as it implied heaven was imperfect, shame such judgement still occurs today)
Forgive seventy times seven someone said, and someone else said he was the Christ and someone else, the Son of G!d and others say he was G!d. Seventy times seven indicates that G!d will provide every opportunity for us all to get into heaven...of course if you read it otherwise...no one will be there as no one can pick up the first stone....can ya?
Marsh
Disagreeable By Nature
Actually, as a Christian, I quite liked Dharmaatmaa's post, and I think (perhaps accidentally) he's pointed out something very important to the meaning of this passage: That it can't be understood unless we separate Jesus from church and, indeed, the posers that are part of it. Not that all, or even most Christians are posers but come on, guys, we all know that not everyone who we see on Sunday is there because they want to humble themselves in the sight of the LORD.
Bob, I disagree with your take on the Gospel of John, because I really don't think anyone except John could have written it because it's just too personal. If it was conjured up by church fathers, it would have been a lot more like the Old Testament: a lot drier, and official-sounding, and bleak! (sorry, church fathers, but it's true) To me, the Gospel of John is the starting point to knowing Jesus because it is so personal, and because it's so uplifting.
The verse in question, by the way, is uplifting, and not meant to throw into the faces of non-Christians and say, "Ah ha! This proves you're damned!"
From what I can see, to a large extent Dharmaatmaa's assertion is true: Churches are not fulfilling the spiritual needs of an educated public, or any public for that matter. Not all churches, mind you, but I've seen a lot of churches in my short life, and would describe none as fulfilling. That's fine, though; I don't want church be fulfilling, because if it was then there would be no room left for Jesus. I submit that if anyone was to meet Jesus, at least two things would immediately happen:
1. They would absolutely fall in love with the guy, because he's so incredibly cool and kind and amazing;
2. They would understand more about God in five minutes than they would in an entire life of studying out of books and listening to sermons-- in any religion.
Jesus himself holds the truth about God, because he came to Earth from Heaven and because he is one in spirit with God. Know him, and you will know God, and in your mind, heart, and spirit you will come to your Father. There is no other way to know God this completely-- not in any religion, not even in Christianity as a religion, because the relationship must be personal, and religions are formal. Dharmaatmaa, you're right when you say that people are unfulfilled these days, but don't be mistaken in thinking that Buddhism or any other religion is going to fulfill people's spiritual needs, because they just won't. People who find fulfillment in Buddhism may also be the same people who find fulfillment in a new plasma TV with surround sound; they'll dive right in because it's new, and then after a while they'll become bored and move on to something else. Nobody who finds Jesus, if they truly have found him, will ever want to move on; Jesus is where our (everybody's) wandering ends.
BlaznFattyz
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Ultimately, there is no way to God except thru Jesus. Those who are not hidden in Christ will be judged and will have to stand before Him and give an account, and all will bow to Him and proclaim that Jesus is Lord, the Father has promised this.
bob x
Well-Known Member
I could not disagree with you more strongly. It reads like propaganda, not even slightly like anyone talking about his own experiences.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
It's propaganda if it furthers the cause of some political system. The question of whether the author was writing propaganda, then, depends on whether he was serving a political system, or whether he was writing from the heart.
I believe it depends on your interpretation and I have no problem with people having different interpretations of the Gospel of John. Make of it what you will. I am an individual. You are an individual. Nobody is the absolute judge with regards to interpretation and we're all entitled to our own little fanciful theories on this.
I don't have to answer to anyone on this, just myself and God, and it's the same with you and everyone else. Thus, I appreciate the sentiments of everyone, positive, negative, optimist or cynical. For me personally, I am not cynical about it and I believe that the author spoke his mind, the account was personal and the author didn't care about the cause of any political system, only that he was able to express his own feelings.
As for people who read it, they may, indeed be servants of a political system. This is propaganda for those people. It is propaganda to people who read it and feel that it serves the cause of a political system.
But for those of us who don't care about any political system when reading it, but our own, personal relationship with God, it is not propaganda. It is a story of a spiritual leader who said and did memorable and meaningful things. We care only about what it means to us, not the cause of any political system. If we ever feel that we are serving some political system, that is where we need to take care.
Most of the time, the "political system" of churches comes in the form of a "group identity" or "group mentality." It's not that I want to detract from the importance of community, but sometimes we forget that we're supposed to be people devoted to God, and lean more towards being instruments of a group identity, group mentality or political system, than being individuals seeking God.
A combination of the original author, the scribes who rewrote it, the translators, the interpeters and your experiences have allowed you to perceive thru your faith that you believe this to be true. Of course you may also perceive a personal promise.
By the same reasoning tis the nature of the Christ. Paul asks us to put mind of Christ in me. To die daily, die to the old self and arise as closer to the understanding of the Christ. It is thru developing a connection a oneness with G!d that we save ourselves. And this to me does not require one to even have heard of Jesus, one could even reject Christianity, but if one's nature follows the nature of the Christ one has found the path.thomas from another thread said:
Of course a combination of the original author, the scribes who rewrote it, the translators, the interpeters and my experiences have allowed me to perceive thru my faith to believe this to be true.
And on this Thanksgiving day I give thanx for all perspectives, Viva la differance!
Marsh
Disagreeable By Nature
Propaganda? Hmmmmm... to me, it feels more like memoirs. Propaganda is in its nature self-serving, and the gospel of John is one book that I don't get this from. Now, I don't imagine that the prolonged speech from 13 to 17, which includes a prayer (and Jesus tended to pray alone) is a word for word recount of an actual speech, but to me it feels like a summary of the things Jesus taught his disciples, and that John was just looking for a means to get it down on paper before he either forgot about it, or died. Now, I agree that the content of this gospel has been and is used by Christians in a self-serving way, but if you can distance the content from the Christian I think you may just find that this book is uplifting, and even beautiful. Without looking it up, here are a few things that stick with me from this gospel:
1. God doesn't want us to feel like orphans
2. God wants us to know him, and even more, to be one with him in spirit
3. God wants to take our pain and suffering away
4. God listens to us, and cares about us
I'm running a little short on time, so I'll have to leave it at that for now. Thanks for your reply, though, Bob.
Namaste Q,
I am a Christian, please note the title and location, this is a discussion amongst Christians as you indicate. What fun it would be to have a discussion where everyone agrees about everything.
It seems so obvious as to be irrefutable, from the data of Scripture, that we cannot save ourselves. The best we can do is co-operate, and by that all we can do is assent, and live according to that which is required of us.
I think man's desire to determine and manage the process of his own salvation is and has always been the problem, from Eden on. Man assumes he has choices and options — this is a delusion — and the situation's worse now than it has ever been, the cult of the individual, the self-determined importance of me and the idea of autonomy as all important, is an assumed but actually false position.
Nowhere does Scripture say "Do your own thing" ... everywhere it says quite the opposite.
You can't reject the truth and find the path of truth.
+++
Quite right ... but then one might argue that the nature of 'paradise' will be according to the good of a given nature: Thus those who are good by virtue on conscience will experience a paradisical state according to that nature.
If one engages with the supernatural however, thus transcending the natural order, then one's experience of 'paradise' might well reflect that, in that there are other modes of being, beyond one's own natural perfection, open to one.
So I'm suggesting there's a natural state of beatitude, for which no directly knowledge of Christ is necessary, and a supernatural state of beatitude, for which a direct knowing — which is gnosis in its Christian context (being rather than knowing) — is necessary.
Thomas
bob x
Well-Known Member
It is creating the system of "Christendom", in which people are controlled by being told they can have no salvation except through Christ, and can have no knowledge of Christ except through the Church. As propaganda it was quite effective; the system controlled many millions of people over thousands of years.
Not the church...the bible...
Marsh
Disagreeable By Nature
You sound like one of the many children who were brought up in a Christian family and forced through church, only to become angry and resentful as a teenager, and to ultimately reject church and everything associated with it... That is to say, you sound like me.
Again, Bob, separate Christ from the Christians and you will see that he is wonderful, and knowable. I agree wholeheartedly with your representation of church history-- even more. I'm a student of history, and I understand how power works. Nevertheless, I believe that Jesus himself (not the church) is the path to knowing God, and there is no other path by which one can come to such a complete understanding. This does not mean that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is damned; on the contrary, Jesus never damned anybody, did he? Didn't he forgive the woman caught in adultery? Didn't he forgive the soldiers who crucified him?
This, my friend, is the big problem and the basis for your objection, no? That people use Jesus as a weapon, and threaten others into belief by saying that this passage states that anyone who does not believe in Jesus will be thrown into hell. That idea smacks with the thirst for power, indeed. Separate Jesus from the theology surrounding him, and a much different picture emerges: that of a liberator, rather than a conqueror.
And he will liberate all those who have, over those thousands of years you refered to, been conquered by ambitious Christians as well...
You're preaching to the wrong choir...
Professor Bob knows Christ. He saw Christ in action...in family, and he was definitely included, and he enjoyed it as much as he was enjoyed.
bob x
Well-Known Member
Utterly incorrect. My parents never had any particular religion, I never went to church, I see Christianity from outside, and just never found it attractive.
Certainly. Burn the gospel of John, and you get a much more picture of who Jesus was.
Of course not. This teaching of exclusivity is just a means of control.
Is PI the only way to extrapolate the circumference and area of a circle?
And if your answer is yes, can you define PI to the last decimal?...
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Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
I never thought of that one.
But I have to be suspicious and skeptical. Is this propaganda?