juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Ah, I get it now. Does "do not eat of the tree of knowledge lest you surely die" move from the figurative to the literal...right?
Morals not an option?
- Thread starter Postmaster
- Start date
Ah, I get it now. Does "do not eat of the tree of knowledge lest you surely die" move from the figurative to the literal...right?
TheKhan
All Natural
- Messages
- 346
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
First I think bringing God into this conversation is dumb. Knowing that we understand only what we are capable of understanding, with regards to this I think it is better to leave the conversation on why we do the things we do, and likely answers would be found around us and within us.
We can ask God why 1+1 is 2 and I don`t think he`s gonna care that much. What he may do is make us suffer maybe through nature, if we do things that he doesn`t like, anyones call if it is an act of God. As he doesn`t speak to anyone I know, I`d think its absurd to try to reason the details by thinking about what God thinks.
While juantoo, you may wish that there is no "us" and "them", and I too would like it to be the way you note, but unfortunately I must inform you that it is not that way yet, as we are still bound by our society instincts or practices. Just look around where ever you are, and if its not a racist world triggered mainly by the way women select men according to their preferences I`ll consider moving to where you live. I`m an outsider where ever I am in the end so I know. But to note for me there is no "us" and "them" unless I`m surrounded by small town people who clearly don`t like foreign objects..
I`ve been in places where people would spit at where I walk (only to regret later), around the globe, I asked a local on the spot to find out if that was anti-social behavior, they told me yes, and I brought hell (one of the things I`m good at world-wide). What I would like to get is an antenna for recognizing monkeys wearing the skin of humans in both sexes, I`ll get there soon enough so that I don`t have to go near them and those particular pieces of land.
Dude, this is by far the most ignorant statement I have ever heard from you man, are you in a slump? If you`re interested, you need to spend more time in the eastern section. Everything east of India is rooted in buddhist India, thats a fact. Noone will deny that except for maybe some Muslims who may want to change that fact eventually (some of them are working on it clearly..), but Muslims are severely new kids on the block in Asia. And I wish good luck to them.
The glyphs are likely to be originated from China, but just ask anyone from Asia about how their culture was influenced by India, and you`ll likely get the same answers from everyone, except from maybe a Mulsim.
If you asked any European or from one who is from a European descended culture, they should all say that their culture is rooted in Babylon, but unfortunately while every European is exposed to concepts rooted in Babylon every day like driving past churches, they have a hard time coming to grips with that question. Some may say Greek, some may say Rome, some may say Spain.. IMO, it`s ridiculous. It all came from the Middle-east as far as everything west of India is concerned. Only after that can we begin to talk about India and Babylon, and how there is a possible root language. But its not there yet, because of Zionism IMO.
Another thing to note that I think you might want to really think about is, knowledge does flow from the new to the old. Like we have MacDonalds in Europe. Like how America doesn`t revolve around Europe. Like why we speak English and not Latin. And sometimes the ancients are just gone, except for maybe Babylon, and the world simply does not revolve around what is the oldest otherwise we`d all be saying we`re Africans, which we are in a sense.
Simply put, unlike Europe (this is just pride and egos clashing IMO), in Asia Japan 2000 years, Korea 3000 years, China 4000 years old, all influenced by Buddhist India because at the time Buddhism was the most civilized civilization in the world. Just like how Christianity was like that relative to all the European countries, but buddhism wasn`t forced incessively like Christianity to the masses mostly. FYI, Japanese does have something like alphabets, its like a mix of alphabets and glyphs, pronounced and grammar like Latin. So Spanish/Portuguese can speak Japanese in a year if they really tried and vise versa, surprise huh! (Japanese is way more simple than Korean or Chinese, btw, in that sense it is the new language of the far east on a island much like English is the new language of the far west of Europe). UK and Japan roughly have around 2000 years of history too. Just look it up, and you`ll likely find what I`m saying.
Whether Sanskrit is the mother of all languages is going to be hottly debated for times to come, maybe thanks to Zionism.
TK
We can ask God why 1+1 is 2 and I don`t think he`s gonna care that much. What he may do is make us suffer maybe through nature, if we do things that he doesn`t like, anyones call if it is an act of God. As he doesn`t speak to anyone I know, I`d think its absurd to try to reason the details by thinking about what God thinks.
While juantoo, you may wish that there is no "us" and "them", and I too would like it to be the way you note, but unfortunately I must inform you that it is not that way yet, as we are still bound by our society instincts or practices. Just look around where ever you are, and if its not a racist world triggered mainly by the way women select men according to their preferences I`ll consider moving to where you live. I`m an outsider where ever I am in the end so I know. But to note for me there is no "us" and "them" unless I`m surrounded by small town people who clearly don`t like foreign objects..
I`ve been in places where people would spit at where I walk (only to regret later), around the globe, I asked a local on the spot to find out if that was anti-social behavior, they told me yes, and I brought hell (one of the things I`m good at world-wide). What I would like to get is an antenna for recognizing monkeys wearing the skin of humans in both sexes, I`ll get there soon enough so that I don`t have to go near them and those particular pieces of land.
Dude, this is by far the most ignorant statement I have ever heard from you man, are you in a slump? If you`re interested, you need to spend more time in the eastern section. Everything east of India is rooted in buddhist India, thats a fact. Noone will deny that except for maybe some Muslims who may want to change that fact eventually (some of them are working on it clearly..), but Muslims are severely new kids on the block in Asia. And I wish good luck to them.
The glyphs are likely to be originated from China, but just ask anyone from Asia about how their culture was influenced by India, and you`ll likely get the same answers from everyone, except from maybe a Mulsim.
If you asked any European or from one who is from a European descended culture, they should all say that their culture is rooted in Babylon, but unfortunately while every European is exposed to concepts rooted in Babylon every day like driving past churches, they have a hard time coming to grips with that question. Some may say Greek, some may say Rome, some may say Spain.. IMO, it`s ridiculous. It all came from the Middle-east as far as everything west of India is concerned. Only after that can we begin to talk about India and Babylon, and how there is a possible root language. But its not there yet, because of Zionism IMO.
Another thing to note that I think you might want to really think about is, knowledge does flow from the new to the old. Like we have MacDonalds in Europe. Like how America doesn`t revolve around Europe. Like why we speak English and not Latin. And sometimes the ancients are just gone, except for maybe Babylon, and the world simply does not revolve around what is the oldest otherwise we`d all be saying we`re Africans, which we are in a sense.
Simply put, unlike Europe (this is just pride and egos clashing IMO), in Asia Japan 2000 years, Korea 3000 years, China 4000 years old, all influenced by Buddhist India because at the time Buddhism was the most civilized civilization in the world. Just like how Christianity was like that relative to all the European countries, but buddhism wasn`t forced incessively like Christianity to the masses mostly. FYI, Japanese does have something like alphabets, its like a mix of alphabets and glyphs, pronounced and grammar like Latin. So Spanish/Portuguese can speak Japanese in a year if they really tried and vise versa, surprise huh! (Japanese is way more simple than Korean or Chinese, btw, in that sense it is the new language of the far east on a island much like English is the new language of the far west of Europe). UK and Japan roughly have around 2000 years of history too. Just look it up, and you`ll likely find what I`m saying.
Whether Sanskrit is the mother of all languages is going to be hottly debated for times to come, maybe thanks to Zionism.
TK
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Yup, the whole of the religious meme is control through fear, at least untill you move past the exoteric into the esoteric. At least then it would be "Those who love me obey me" The mystics of every religion adhere to a moral code because they see it to be unthinkable to do otherwise, they are touched by the divine in a sense.
If we study the development of consciousness through the historical development of man we see religion arises along with a moral sense. To divorce the two would just be moot.
TheKhan
All Natural
- Messages
- 346
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
I don`t mean to be too argumentative, but I would like to note that a bulk of the morals that we are used to today was brought about by religion that are roughly 2000 years old (e.g. Christianity, Buddhism). Where IMO, much emphasis was put on "Thou shalt not kill" was introduced.
Before that it was roughly OK to sacrifice people in some instances in the name of god, although many have not caught on, IMO.
TK
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Yes, well, then there's that. 
c0de
Vassal
- Messages
- 2,237
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 0
That is a misconception actually. Throughout history, fear is a property
that has been abused and manipulated by both the mainstream and
esoteric branches. While one exaggerates it, the other nullifies it. Both
end up by corrupting their religion.
In religion, fear is only one half of the equation. Fear is supposed to keep a
man away from sin, it is a self regulating quality. And thus, by itself, it is
only good for paralyzing action, but it is not good for motivating it.
This is where the other part: Hope/Love comes in. Hope in God and love
of Him, is what makes a man/woman take action, this fuels the desire to
actually put his religion into practice (acts of charity etc.) You absolutely
need to have both, in traditional religion.
When mainstream sects use fear, they do it to gain control over their
recruits because of its paralyzing qualities. But when some of the esoteric
branches nullify fear, they do it to make the unlawful things lawful. Both
end up as polar opposites, corrupting and manipulating religion to suit their
own desires.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
男は、これはるかに私人を、ある暴落のあなたがあなたから聞いたあることが最も知らない声明であるか。 興味があるに関して`、東セクションのより多くの時間を使う必要があれば。 インドの東のすべては仏教のインド、それでである事実定着する。 多分結局事実こと変わりたいと思う場合もある何人かのイスラム教を除いてことを誰も否定しない(そのうちのいくつかはそれで。はっきり動作している。)、しかしイスラム教はアジアのブロックのひどく新しい子供である。 そして私はそれらに幸運を望む。
Japanese.
멋쟁이는, 이것 훨씬 나 이제까지 남자가, 인 폭락에서 당신은 당신에게서 들린 것이 가장 무지한 계산서인가? 당신이 흥미있는 다시 `, 당신 동부쪽 단면도에 있는 시간을 더 소요할 필요가 있는 경우에. 인도의 동쪽 모두는 불교 인도, 그것에서 이다 사실 뿌리박는다. 아무도는 어쩌면 결국 사실 변화하고 싶을 수도 있는 몇몇 이슬람교도를 제외하면 부정할 것이다 (그중 몇몇은 그것에 명확하게 작동하고 있다.), 그러나 이슬람교도는 아시아에 있는 구획에 가혹하게 새로운 아이이다. 그리고 나는 그(것)들 행운을 빕니다를 바란다.
Korean.
花花公子，这显然是我从您听见了人，是您暴跌的最无知的声明？ 如果您关于感兴趣的`您需要花费在东部部分的更多时间。 一切在印度东边在佛教印度，那根源是事实。 没人否认除了可能也许想要改变的有些穆斯林最后事实(有些明显地运作对此。)，但是穆斯林是严厉地在块的新的孩子在亚洲。 并且我祝愿好运对他们。
Chinese, simplified.
If you notice, they even share some characters. Not many, but a few. None of these languages use alphabets in the same sense others from India westward do.
I would love nothing better than to show *all* the world's languages coming from a singular "Tower of Babel" source...but the linguistic fact is just not there when it comes to the Oriental languages. My reference to Egyptian glyphs was not that the Oriental languages came from Egyptian, but that they are all similarly formed by ideogramatic glyphs. If Chomsky fails to understand this it is not my issue, linguists around the world understand it.
BTW, you give far too much credit to Indian influence in China and further east. Buddhism *only* dates to 500 BC +/-, and China is *far* more ancient than that. Taoism alone is shown to be in China before 2000 BC, a full 1500 years *before* Indian Buddhism even was born. Taoism *might* (emphasis on extreme possiblity) even predate the Hindi Vedas, and guaging by the extreme differences in context and application, I would really hesistate to suggest any association between those two.
Zionism has absolutely *nothing* to do with any of this.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
You are welcome to think what you wish to think. As for myself, I find it difficult to divorce G-d from morality. From my perspective the two go hand-in-hand.
This to me says that how you define G-d is quite different from how I define G-d. I do not know the mind of G-d any more than you admit to.
While your experience with prejudice is unfortunate, it does not change my view a bit. Racism is not hardwired. If that were so, people *could not* unlearn it. And people do find ways to get past racism and prejudicial attitudes. FWIW, I face prejudice myself everyday, and I have caught myself behaving prejudicially towards others. Just because prejudice is culturally engrained and widespread does not make it hard-wired. I also know to watch for it in my own behavior and have found ways to either end it or work around it...I can and have changed my tendency to prejudice in spite of my nurturing training...so by experience I can attest that prejudice is not hard wired or I could not have changed my attitudes.
Why would a European point to Babylon? Christian roots?
Now, there may be a grain of truth in pointing to the Sumerian Fertile Crescent. That does seem to be the general vicinity where agriculture appears to have begun, at least in the west of the Old World. I am seeing more and more hints that agriculture may have begun independently in China, and there are one or two suggestions that there may have been some early independent agriculture in some odd spot in the Americas. India no doubt has made huge contributions to the world, especially the Old World. But I also think they tend to think a bit more highly of themselves than the evidence warrants.
We *are* all Africans, according to genetics and anthropology.
You do realize Buddism is *only* 2500 years old whereas in the case of the Ainu of Japan their civilization is more than 10,000 years old? Buddhism is no older than Roman civilization, and Greecian civilization is older still. Rome and Greece being major influences in the west. No argument that Buddhist civilization is to be admired for its contributions, but at the expense of Rome and Greece betrays a rather pointed and narrow view of the historical facts. It is hardly condusive to scholarship to exchange one set of political blindedness for another. I can grant that the east is all too often ignored in the west, but to ignore the west in order to triumphalize the east is just more of the same. I mean no offense in so saying, but it truly is no scholastic approach to do so. The facts do not support the premise.
Christianity overcame Europe at the point of Charlemagne's sword, and by far the preponderance of that conversion was no more than lip service. Europe until a thousand years ago was predominantly Pagan, and there is a huge sympathy and resurgence to Paganism going on even now. Buddhism brags about its non-violent means of overthrow, and fails to mention its little martial tendencies. Buddhism may not be *as* prone to war as Christianity or Islam, but that does not mean they have not conducted war when it was in their interest to do so. May I remind...who brought the martial arts to the world? I don't know how you came to see Japanese as having some mixed alphabet, but I showed where that is not the case. Plug anything you wish into Babelfish and what you will get out is Japanese ideograms. Now, the *Chinese* do use the English / Latin characters to teach *pronunciation* to schoolkids, and we call this Pinyin English (sometimes perverted to "Pidgeon English), but this is an informal use of an alphabet to teach the formal linguistics. My wife is Chinese, and I spent a little time in Beijing a couple years back and had the opportunity to observe this in action. Japanese history is a great deal older than you give credit.
Among linguists it is pretty well established, but there are always those who doubt.
Last edited:
B
Bandit
Guest
None of the above proves people are hardwired for racism.
Racism exists in both small and large towns and all countries, not just small towns. Everyone has a preference of the kind of person they want to be with and everyone should have the right to choose in mutual agreement for a relationship. Racism is triggered in part by a superior mentality and attitude, social and economic status and is learned behavior. No one is born that way and not every racist gets that way from a previous generation teaching it to them.
Sucks to be you.
Everyone goes through things like that. It does not make you special.
Just because it is natural for you or a few others to be a racist does not mean it is for everyone. I have hired & have working for me... african, chinese, polish, german, jewish, italian and I am american indian. There is no group territorial attribute or hardwiring.
B
Bandit
Guest
N
Nick_A
Guest
She's right. No amount of platitudes can change human nature. Change is only possible through the help of grace.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Could you expand on this a bit? And does this include, say, Sufism?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
There was obviously a transition point when religion transited from the individual to the institution and from the shaman to the priest. It was then I think or perhaps "shortly" after that the religious institutions were co-opted by government (king) for the sake of exercise of political power and control. That day had to have been a very sad day.
"Meme" seems to me to usually carry such a pejorative aura. When I use it I don't usually interject the negativity. From where I sit one can hold the religious meme of an individual pursuit of the Divine, or one can hold an institutional religious meme (which would be the one Dawkins so maligns). Both are memes, but their applications and outlooks are vastly different.
You may be on to something with "religion arises along with a moral sense." The tendency to morality may well be an artifact of evolution, but the awareness of being moral...and more important in my view an awareness of the *need* to be moral require consciousness. I think it is fair to say other creatures are self-aware, but I wonder how profound and acute our awareness is and how that may play into consciousness? I still think an awareness of time, particularly forward time, must play a role. From that awareness we can determine consequence. "If I do this, that will happen. Maybe I shouldn't do this if I don't want that to happen..." From here we go into guilt trips and heaven/hell and all sorts of tangents that over time become second nature thoughts that are seldom rechecked for error.
Just thinking in type...
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
I rather like the work "meme" too bad it was Dawkins who coined it and therefore spoiled it for those of a religious bent. Perhaps "Zeitgeitst"would work instead? I would have to do some work on this to get a feel for the development of the moral sense and the development of organized religion.
There is a theory of the bi-cameral mind (Jaynes?) and how it became unitive because of the complexity of society. Perhaps there is something there?
There is a theory of the bi-cameral mind (Jaynes?) and how it became unitive because of the complexity of society. Perhaps there is something there?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
I would agree in concept, but I doubt you would get those who participated to agree that it was "G-d" as an old white beard sitting on a cloud being sacrificed to. Pagans were still sacrificing in effigy a couple of hundred years ago in Europe, but that was to invoke the forces of nature. I wouldn't wonder to hear that such still takes place among some of the smaller out of the way tribes say in south America or the Polynesian islands. New Guinea still had headhunters eating the bodies of their enemies as recently as WW2, not so much to appease G-d as a form of respect. Human sacrifice has had a variety of applications and implied meanings attached, so it is more than a little difficult to simply say these sacrifices were just offered to "G-d." A lot depends on what one means by the term "G-d."
c0de
Vassal
- Messages
- 2,237
- Reaction score
- 1
- Points
- 0
Sufism is not as homogeneous as people think. And a lot of the
branches of sufism (like the dervishes etc.) are rejected
by mainline sufis. In Islam, all the sects that have developed have
modified (manipulated) the concepts of fear and love for their own
purposes. Even mainline sufism, as far as I can see it, is just another
institutionalization of this. They say that they are just trying to
get closer to God.... but then why do they require a sort of membership?
You have to be guided, by a sufi teacher who is higher in rank then you...
But the whole point of Islam is to destroy the barriers between man
and God, so why do these teachers come in the picture in the first place?
A lot of "esoteric" movements in all religions share these same ideas.
They lure people in with the promise of some secret hidden knowledge,
(kabbala) or "gnosis" (Gnostics) and then assign a "teacher" to the
new "student", who by this time is just another recruit into the ranks.
They are given a set of trials as an initiation ritual (the sufis have this)
and when the trials are completed (almost like the 12 step program in
AA) the recruit is made fit for advancement... The only purpose behind
these tests is to commit the recruit's membership and build a sense of
belonging and loyalty to the sect/cult/group.
The fact of the matter is this: real religion does not need to be
divided into "esoteric" and "exoteric". Religion, if properly understood
already has a balance between these, and that balance exists for a
reason. The idea that anyone needs guidance from some
teacher who is supposed to be "higher" in rank (implying that
he is closer to God) is completely absurd. The whole point of
a personal God, is that if He wants to guide you, then He will do it
personally. The only prerequisite is for the seeker to place total
faith in God alone, and in His words.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
Thanks Code thats pretty comprehensive. Guess I hit a tripwire here. Actually I was talking about the exoteric and esoteric sides of the same coin as are you I suspect. I think about the individual (if indeed a thing like that actually exists) who practices a religion deeply but is drawn inexorably into a (for lack of a better term) higher aspect of his practice resulting in what Maslow would call a "peak experience"
Here I'm thinking Rumi, Tabriz, St. John of the Cross, St. Theresa of Avila, Thomas Merton, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj etc..
Here I'm thinking Rumi, Tabriz, St. John of the Cross, St. Theresa of Avila, Thomas Merton, Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj etc..
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Like Paladin, I think I'm with you up to the last paragraph. Would you expand on this?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
& sadly racism does.
go figure.
Yep. You got it.
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Change also needs will. No amount of grace can overcome an obstinate will. A person has to want to change, or change will never occur.