The question of Israel

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As a Christian of Jewish heritage I have questioned many Jews on the subject of Israel over the years and have to admit I have not found a single Zionist Jew who believes in the human rights of Palestinians when it comes to Israel. All sorts of excuses are given to rationalize what is clearly the last vestiges of European colonialism in the world, the European and European-American forcing of millions of European and European-American Jews upon the indigenous Palestinian population via European and America's Security Council's control of the then brand-new U.N. in 1947-48. Never does one hear Zionists cop to the completely immoral and undemocratic way Israel was founded without a single Palestinian voice in the matter.

As a former anthropology student I don't know of any other ethnic group on earth who has tried to make a claim to lands they've left for whatever reasons hundreds of years ago. It's over a thousand years for Jews and yet we see Jewish people from Europe, Ashkenazim, with only the barest traces of Semitic ancestry left in them, clammering for Israel as if they had every right in the world to oust the indigenous peoples there who have been there for well over a thousand years, far longer than any ancient Israel nation ever existed and besides that, what about all the non-Jewish descendants of the Canaanite confederation kingdoms? They just "disappear"?

Using the apartment ownership model, the owners of the apartment who lived there for all their lives and all the lives of their parents and grandparents and great-grandparents, have the moral right to defend their apartment against home invasion and yet Zionist label such people fighting Jewish invasion and occupation, "terrorists"..go figure :rolleyes:..

Oh, well, Europe and America have their Jewish colony in the Middle East armed to the teeth to protect Western oil interests so that's all that matters to most of them.
 
Holysmoke, I am not sure where to start with your post. :eek:

Do you realize that this is an interfaith forum ? That means we are supposed to try to understand each others faiths.
 
Avi1223 said:
Holysmoke, I am not sure where to start with your post. :eek:

Do you realize that this is an interfaith forum ? That means we are supposed to try to understand each others faiths.
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Why don't you start with this: My Jewish heritage is on my mother's and her mother's side so I could claim myself Jewish but it is the Jewish man, Jesus, who I follow which, because he opposed Pharaisic Judaism, the foundation of modern rabbinical Judaism, makes me Christian. I even have Mizraim ancestry so will you allow me to post my opinions or do you not recognize my right to have an opinion here?

I have been to Israel and also a bit into Palestine and seen for myself what the faith I could have chosen has brought into being as the nationalization of the Jewish religion. I came away with profound sadness at the way Zionists have destroyed the heart and soul of their own religion by becoming everything God warned Jews not to emulate in Gentiles. The question here is do you even care to understand me and my faith? Or is asking or posting opinions of anti-Zionist Jews and Jewish Christians verboten?
 
Muslimwoman said:
Hi guys, can you help me with an answer to a question that I was asked this morning .. I don't want to take an uneducated guess so thought I would ask you.

It was the usual argument about Israel and who has rights to be on that land.

The analogy put to me is that if someone steals my apartment and gives it to his brother does it belong to his brother?

I argued for ages about the Ottoman Empire, England and France, etc but they always come back to the moral standpoint above.

Why they ask does someone living in US, UK, Russia or wherever think they have a right to up sticks and move to land that was taken from the people that lived there (in fairness they talked about everyone that lived there not just the Muslims).

Also why do people who know an area of land not designated as Israel that has recently been taken and the people moved off and then used as a settlement think it's ok to move there? What moral right do they feel they have, as ordinary human beings, to do that.

I'm a bit stumped for an answer I'm afraid :eek:
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maybe ask the Queen next time you see her.
England had no compunctions about throwing Natives onto crappy little reserves, treating them like POW's for a long long time and giving them a comprador class of overseer's who have been screwing em ever since, plus a whole lot more, whilst taking whatsoever was there to be taken and giving back ......what in return?????? Make them stand in line and beg for scraps. How noble.

I see a huge parallel here.
They still have the gall to call the holdings here "crown" land which is owned by....the Queen.
How did she acquire said land?
She stole it by force of arms.
Well, actually not her, but as figurehead she stands responsible for the crimes of her forebears.

and to add a bit maybe look into this article
Triple Cross: How Britain Created the Arab-Israel Conflict


American Thinker: Triple Cross: How Britain Created the Arab-Israel Conflict
 
Holysmoke holysmoke,

Let me see, you've demanded the right to unequivically state that Jesus is the only way to heaven...and now dance into the judaic board picking fights, all whilst complaining that your desire is an unbiased interfaith board...

I think you'll have to enter a non parallel universe of your own creation to have your demands met.

Great start at freindly introductions though....
 
bananabrain said:
why do you use the word "verboten", particularly?

you seem to have made up your mind what you think on a number of issues, so i don't see why you're asking us.

b'shalom

bananabrain
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Sorry to pull your chain by using a German word most Americans know. Guess it's my German Jewish heritage showing through although you may think its my ties to my Aryan Nation inmates here helping me with the big words in the Protocols..
 
holysmoke said:
Sorry to pull your chain by using a German word most Americans know. Guess it's my German Jewish heritage showing through although you may think its my ties to my Aryan Nation inmates here helping me with the big words in the Protocols..
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Holysmoke holysmoke surely you are not now referencing the protocols of zion as valid. Something written by anti semites to inflame their brethren.

A piece of work you are. I'm beginning to wonder what your next login name will be.
 
wil said:
Holysmoke holysmoke surely you are not now referencing the protocols of zion as valid. Something written by anti semites to inflame their brethren.

A piece of work you are. I'm beginning to wonder what your next login name will be.
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Get a grip, wil, I was poking fun at Jewish paranoia. And I have the right, being of Jewish descent. I have worked for well over a decade with a local tribe which is composed of the descendants of survivors of several tribes wiped out in their very real holocaust that happened in 1860 here when white settlers decided to go on genocidal raids to rid the valuable land around here wanted by settlers of Native Americans. These people lost everything. Not only most of their tribal ancestors but all their tribal culture including languages. They had no back-up reserves like Jewish culture did so their holocaust experience was in a way much more severe including the ways in which they died, e.g. women and children hacked to death with axes, children drowned in our rivers in sacks like kittens, ndns pushed overboard to drown off the coast, and of course rapes and murders galore. At our local university one can find a Jewish memorial to the Jewish holocaust on display in the library but not a single mention of the local NA holocaust. So many ethnic groups have experienced holocaust but only Jews have made theirs THE HOLOCAUST, even making a business out of holocaust museums, it's a sick mindset in my opinion and I for one will point to the other ethnic groups and their holocaust experiences whenever I encounter the Jewish paranoid mindset such as here to help correct the moral balance. The Jewish holocaust fear is especially inappropriate behavior here in America in which in our 230+ years of existence there has never been a Jewish pogrom and Jews have been accepted as Americans along with every other ethnic group coming here for religious and political freedom. Prejudice against Jews here was never any more prevalent than what the Irish experienced and certainly nowhere near the level of bigotry blacks and Native Americans experienced. Time to examine the Jewish mental state that continues to fear Gentiles.
 
I have a question for the Admins. of this forum. Reading earlier posts, my understanding is that this poster, holysmoke, was a member of this forum earlier as sonoman, and was apparently banned.

Can you please confirm this ? I assume this can be confirmed by comparing IP numbers, is that how you know ?

If so, could you please explain what actions he did which resulted in his being banned ?

Thanks.
 
So what I am thinking is, you know when a pedophile moves into your neighborhood you are sent a notice that the guy is living there. And a team of psychologists, social workers, doctors and probation officer are assigned to review his case.

I think, if a known race hater joins this forum a similar team should be assigned to review his case. He could be given appropriate medication and psychological counseling. Perhaps a frontal lobatomy ? :D
 
Avi, holysmoke has had a few incarnations, but the key concern has been one of self promotion, not least of his self-missionary website. He is being allowed to post at present on the grounds that he seems to be primarily engaging in discussion, rather than self-promotion.

I try to avoid explaining moderator actions in public, but I will say this - we have a zero tolerance approach to neo-fascism here, and have removed a couple of people previously for this.

However, holysmoke isn't someone I recall being associated with promotion of Neo Nazi ideals, but instead has an extremely esoteric view of Christianity and Judaism.
 
I said:
Avi, holysmoke has had a few incarnations, but the key concern has been one of self promotion, not least of his self-missionary website. He is being allowed to post at present on the grounds that he seems to be primarily engaging in discussion, rather than self-promotion.

I try to avoid explaining moderator actions in public, but I will say this - we have a zero tolerance approach to neo-fascism here, and have removed a couple of people previously for this.

However, holysmoke isn't someone I recall being associated with promotion of Neo Nazi ideals, but instead has an extremely esoteric view of Christianity and Judaism.
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Hi Brian, thanks for the explanation.

Out of curiousity, what defines a neo-fascist ? Is it someone who hates Jews, even if he claims to be one himself ? By the way, claiming partial Jewish heritage is one of the oldest tricks in the book for anti-semites. Hitler claimed to have some Jewish heritage.

I actually hope you do not have to ban this race hater. What better way for us to understand the evil that we are dealing with than when he is right here in our midst to see and listen to.

Oh, and thanks for creating a unique environment to learn about other faiths in :)
 
Muslimwoman said:
The analogy put to me is that if someone steals my apartment and gives it to his brother does it belong to his brother?
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If the brother keeps living there, and leaves the place to his grandchildren, is it theirs? After how many generations does a statute of limitations kick in? There is no question that originally it was all the Jews' property.
 
BB + Holysmoke



@ BB


Dude, I almost missed your reply on this thread completely. Its been a while since I asked those questions. I have to say, your responses are very informative. To tell you the truth, its actually good that I read them now (rather then before) because I just finished a Pol Sci course on Israeli Identity. When you say that the idea of a religious-state is a very controversial one, I know what you mean now...



@ Holysmoke

I think you are going too far in your criticism of the Jewish side of this equation. The Palestinians are of course victims, but what have the Arabs done to ease their pain other then exacerbate the problem? (Because a victimized Palestine actually suits their own agendas). Also, whatever the Jews have done, or are doing, is not any worse then the crimes of any other people in history.

So its okay to offer due criticism, but lets not go overboard. Every people when they were given the chance took exactly the same route towards tyranny, and the Israelis are no different then the Muslims in Armenia or the Christians Imperialists, or the Communistic athiests in this... This is why Palestine, is a tragedy of humanity as a whole.

That said, I will say that if you are of a Jewish heritage yourself, I can understand why you may feel more critical of Israel and Jews. I myself am very harsh with regards to Muslims and especially, my home country of Pakistan... Whenever I get involved in a discussion with other Muslims or Pakistanis, I am usually more critical then I need to be, just because I am more emotionally attached to the issue, I guess.
 
Avi1223 said:
Hi Brian, thanks for the explanation.

Out of curiousity, what defines a neo-fascist ? Is it someone who hates Jews, even if he claims to be one himself ? By the way, claiming partial Jewish heritage is one of the oldest tricks in the book for anti-semites. Hitler claimed to have some Jewish heritage.

I actually hope you do not have to ban this race hater. What better way for us to understand the evil that we are dealing with than when he is right here in our midst to see and listen to.

Oh, and thanks for creating a unique environment to learn about other faiths in :)
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I can't recall the member in question being a "race-hater", as much as having some rather gestalt ideas relating to Christianity, Gnosticism, Judaism, and beyond. I've read parts of his website and nothing here or there has ever struck out as being specifically anti-Semitic - perhaps anti-establishment, if anything. To be honest, I find some of his ideas quite interesting, but it's been the dictatorial self-promotional manner previously used on the site that has gotten him banned before. He also does state a Jewish surname on his website.

The couple of Neo Nazis we've had around were far more subtle, far more devious, and far more disciplined. Nothing at first, just little hints as they slowly opened up, raising questions about the legitimacy of the Jews as a people, historical evils and atrocities committed by Jews (usually literal extrapolations from events in the Torah), then proceeding to the rational logic of eugenics. QED.

We couldn't cope with a Neo Nazi on this site, because most members of our community wouldn't put up with it. We'd lose an interfaith community, and end up with a pro-fascist platform with an active membership of one. That does not seem an end result worth supporting.
 
bob x said:
There is no question that originally it was all the Jews' property.
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lol...what a lot of bollox. Why dont you get the hell out of America then and leave all your property to the Indians? Jews, of the native variety, and the muslim and christian individuals of the region have shared geneology that stretches back 1000s of years. The problem is not with native, or incoming, Jews but with the expansionist ideaology of a few ultrazionists who stay rich and powerful by making sure peace does not break out.
 
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