The question of Israel

[holysmoke]

So what I am thinking is, you know when a pedophile moves into your neighborhood you are sent a notice that the guy is living there. And a team of psychologists, social workers, doctors and probation officer are assigned to review his case.

I think, if a known race hater joins this forum a similar team should be assigned to review his case. He could be given appropriate medication and psychological counseling. Perhaps a frontal lobatomy ?

Avi, are you Jewish? It is my experience that if anyone hates what I believe and express in public forums about Israel it is Jewish people who are the first ones to try to shut me up. Anti-Zionists are branded as Nazis and worse yet what we are are people who are standing up for native people's right not to be invaded, occupied and oppressed by foreign invaders.

The more this continues to happen as it does the more I become convinced the Jewish Cult produces mental illness in the form of paranoia of Gentiles, a paranoia that follows the Jewish mindset wherever it goes, e.g. even here in America where Jews have never been singled out for persecution in over 230 years of America's existence as a homeland for people persecuted for their religious or political beliefs in their own homelands. In other words, your paranoia of me is very inappropriate behavior and is leading you to vilification of me without you really knowing what my beliefs are as Brian has attempted to tell you.

I have to repeat this again and again because it seems to never sink into Zionist Jewish minds that non-Jews are not under any moral obligation to like Judaism or Zionism. It is not hatred of Jews that I feel when I criticize Judaism or Israel, it is my expressing dislike for the tenets of Judaism and the behavior of Israeli Jews. Do you like every religion, say, Santaria or Scientology or Neo-Paganism? We don't have to like other religious paths and not liking some of them is no reflection of bigotry or hatred, just discernment between choices. I choose Christian beliefs because they resonate with my spiritual experiences, Judaism, which I could have chosen, does not.

Actually I wouldn't criticize Judaism so heavily if, 1) I were not of Jewish descent, (your insight about being harder on one's own kind being true) 2) if modern Israel didn't exist, and 3) if I were not a prophesy bearer bearing new spiritual information that confirms the reasons why Jesus, another Jew, had to renounce ties to his fellow religionists. Jews didn't, still don't know, who or what God is. Jesus did and I believe those who follow Jesus know too.

 

[holysmoke]

I can't recall the member in question being a "race-hater", as much as having some rather gestalt ideas relating to Christianity, Gnosticism, Judaism, and beyond. I've read parts of his website and nothing here or there has ever struck out as being specifically anti-Semitic - perhaps anti-establishment, if anything. To be honest, I find some of his ideas quite interesting, but it's been the dictatorial self-promotional manner previously used on the site that has gotten him banned before. He also does state a Jewish surname on his website.

The couple of Neo Nazis we've had around were far more subtle, far more devious, and far more disciplined. Nothing at first, just little hints as they slowly opened up, raising questions about the legitimacy of the Jews as a people, historical evils and atrocities committed by Jews (usually literal extrapolations from events in the Torah), then proceeding to the rational logic of eugenics. QED.

We couldn't cope with a Neo Nazi on this site, because most members of our community wouldn't put up with it. We'd lose an interfaith community, and end up with a pro-fascist platform with an active membership of one. That does not seem an end result worth supporting.

Thank you, Brian, for at least showing some objectivity about my beliefs although being me, I do have to question your remark, "dictatorial self-promotion" referring to me. We have gone round and round about "proselytizing" and one of these days you will get it that while I do make what seem to be outrageous claims of prophet status and do have a new Gospel to impart to the world, I am a Gnostic Christian and therefore believe with all my heart, mind and soul, that NO ONE on earth, including me, can tell another person what and how to believe in God. No one. Only God can do that and as you probably gather by now, Jesus Christ of the Gospels is the face and voice of God to me as I recognize Him as a Spiritual Being, a human conceptualization of God come to earth by magnifying the legends and teachings of an earthly and historical "Jesus", Yeishu ben Pantera.

Getting back to proselytizing..If one has no organized religion to offer or sell membership in how does one go about proselytizing or getting people to join? What are they joining? Do you "join" an author who's writings you greatly respect or do you place such people in another category of acceptance? I write theological essays and do have a "book" and a Gospel to share with others but it is important for you and others who read my stuff to know that I do not claim any right to demand adherence to my particular Gnostic Christian beliefs. I want to be treated like any other author of new ideas, i.e., we don't glorify Darwin or Einstein and put them on pedestals to bow down to their notions, we read their works and make up our own minds. This is how prophesy should be treated as well instead of glorifying prophets as somehow way more special than Joe Blow down the street who helps bring Meals on Wheels to senior citizens. I think the fact that I am so full of human foibles is a reason why God wants to use me to bring new spiritual information about the Son of Man role in revealing God's will. God is overthrowing idolization of religious figures and getting human beings to look at humanity as the instrument of God.

So, Brian, I do appreciate your tolerance of me this time around and hope you will understand that while, yes, I am a religious extremist as one has to be to when assigned prophesy bearing duty, I am not about to force or demand anyone become just like me, holding beliefs just like me. I just am another religious book writer and God will either further or squelch my beliefs shared to the world or God will bury them in obscurity. I just do what I must in order to serve God's will. I hope you can understand my position better now. Strong opinions do not mean strong-arm demands for adherence.

 

[Avi]

It took me less than 5 minutes to find 5 posts that are highly offensive quotes by holysmoke and I would say race hating or race baiting:

- you may think its my ties to my Aryan Nation inmates here helping me with the big words in the Protocols.

- only Jews have made theirs THE HOLOCAUST, even making a business out of holocaust museums

- I believe the historical Jesus to be Yeishu ben Pantera who was killed by Jewish authorities in the Jewish manner: he was stoned to death and then his body hung on a tree which Paul refers to in Gal 3:13.

- Yup. Yeishu and I think his five disciples also were stoned to death as per Jewish law for blasphemy.

- How can we talk about the reasons why Jesus was so opposed to Pharaisic Judaism for example if no one here is allowed to diss Judaism.

And at least one completely delusional:

- Actually I wouldn't criticize Judaism so heavily if I were not a prophesy bearer bearing new spiritual information

If anyone wants to see more insightful quotes like this I will be glad to keep looking under one or more of the pseudonyms.​

I am pretty new to this forum, so you might not realize that I do not easily call someone a race hater. But this guy is a race hater.

 

[Avi]

Happened to me that way. I was a Christian for 28 years but in all that time I never once had a personal experience of Jesus. Not once. God, oh yes, God for sure, lot's of astonishing revelations sent into my mind by this Something that told me all about Jesus and why He was sent into the world but no Jesus. God even sent a guiding angel my way but no Jesus. Coupled with a Christian theology that wasn't anywhere near orthodox to begin with it was difficult to claim myself a "Christian" yet I knew I was even without experiencing Jesus personally in my life. Ah, but then, last year towards the end about a month before facing prostate cancer surgery, the illness that I had been dealing with all through 2007, I decided to put the obvious question to the test: I asked God, "Are You Jesus?"

Yes.

Asked It seven times, seven received God's answer "Yes" seven times. It was the first time ever for me that God had spoken to me personally. Never got any direct God talk before--just ideas and concepts planted in my mind, sometimes a slogan but never real conversation. Now, that's what I have and I tell you the truth I have backed way off asking God about things because He answers! and He's already turned 28 years of my beliefs inside out.

Reading some of your back posts is rather enlightening, Sonoman.

I am very sorry to learn that you are a cancer patient. I suspected that you are a sick young man, and now I understand.

Please see a good oncologist and psychologist and please do not let your anger cast a shadow on what is otherwise a good interfaith forum.

Peace to you and G-d bless you.

 

[bananabrain]

Sorry to pull your chain by using a German word most Americans know. Guess it's my German Jewish heritage showing through although you may think its my ties to my Aryan Nation inmates here helping me with the big words in the Protocols..

i know what it means. it doesn't "pull my chain", that doesn't need doing, especially by you. i think i know what you mean by it though.

Get a grip, wil, I was poking fun at Jewish paranoia. And I have the right, being of Jewish descent.

it's not about having the right. ethnicity does not confer free speech on given subjects. and nobody could accuse me of paranoia with any justification. this sort of rude "have you quit beating your wife" kind of innuendo is of no assistance to anyone. you've made up your mind, so why don't you go and share your lack of insight with people who will nod along.

having now read the rest of these posts, i feel bound to inform you that we aren't recruiting new prophets at the moment. when elijah returns, please apply to him if you meet the criteria for prophecy under hilkhot melakhim. however, i am bound to tell you that a) you're not right about ben pantera, there were a lot of people with the same name at that time and he's about 150 years too early to be jesus and b) jesus wasn't a prophet either according to us, although it is always possible he had ruah ha-qodesh, a lesser order of prophetic insight. you're not coming across as likely to make any converts here, particularly on the judaism board, as we take a pretty dim view of that sort of thing. so, in the nicest possible way, please take it elsewhere.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Tao_Equus]

as we take a pretty dim view of that sort of thing. so, in the nicest possible way, please take it elsewhere.

b'shalom

bananabrain

OMG! If you had said that to me I would be telling you, in the nicest possible way, to take a hike.

 

[bananabrain]

what do you want from me, tao? the guy thinks he's a prophet, thinks jews are trying to shut him up and wants to convert us to christianity. he's on a hiding to nothing, has already been banned several times and just won't quit. what is one to do with such people? you're presumably familiar with the idea that "bad money drives out good", right? well, bad discussion drives out good too. i don't come on here to have unproductive fights with dogmatic pinheads.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Tao_Equus]

what do you want from me, tao? the guy thinks he's a prophet, thinks jews are trying to shut him up and wants to convert us to christianity. he's on a hiding to nothing, has already been banned several times and just won't quit. what is one to do with such people? you're presumably familiar with the idea that "bad money drives out good", right? well, bad discussion drives out good too. i don't come on here to have unproductive fights with dogmatic pinheads.

b'shalom

bananabrain

Want from You? Nothing.

He thinks Jews are trying to shut him up? You mean like this "please take it elsewhere" ?
Nice of you to unilaterally decidewho is or is not presenting good or bad discussions. Even if I agree with you that he talks a lot of nonsense you are using your typical bullying tactics. Like your sh1t smells of roses. Not that I do not enjoy your style but if you do not want to engage with him you have the option of blocking or simply ignoring him. Telling him to go away however, in my opinion, is a step too far.

 

[bananabrain]

"typical bullying tactics"? what, pointing out that someone is talking utter bilge? i am here for interfaith dialogue, that is what this board is about. not to be preached at by some delusional egomaniac. as a moderator, too, i have the responsibility of maintaining an environment, as far as possible, where people feel they can learn stuff rather than arrive armed to the teeth with ill-digested opinions and fight to the bitter end over, oh, i don't know, birth certificate legislation. that would put me right off. i learn things here every day. look at that "Torah base 7" thread just below there, that's news to me.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Tao_Equus]

"typical bullying tactics"? what, pointing out that someone is talking utter bilge? i am here for interfaith dialogue, that is what this board is about. not to be preached at by some delusional egomaniac. as a moderator, too, i have the responsibility of maintaining an environment, as far as possible, where people feel they can learn stuff rather than arrive armed to the teeth with ill-digested opinions and fight to the bitter end over, oh, i don't know, birth certificate legislation. that would put me right off. i learn things here every day. look at that "Torah base 7" thread just below there, that's news to me.

b'shalom

bananabrain

None of this deals with my point.

 

[iBrian]

Okay, let's calm it down a little - you really wouldn't want me to have to ask for a "group hug".

 

[Tao_Equus]

Okay, let's calm it down a little - you really wouldn't want me to have to ask for a "group hug".

I just made some 3 cheese, spinach and olive filo parcels, anybody want one?
(Filo in Greek means friend )

 

[bananabrain]

None of this deals with my point.

which is what, exactly?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[iBrian]

Tao, I think BB's rightly concerned that someone may be trying to tip the boat over in the Judaism board.

I think it's fair to say our Jewish members have gone through a rough time on the boards of late: not least the round condemnation of Israel's invasion of Gaza, but also the resulting erroneous association of Israel=Judaism; plus we've had the resurgence of a Neo Nazi on the forums; and now someone who has had a whole string of aliases banned has returned and started out in such a way that more recent Jewish members think he could be a Neo Nazi as well. IO has even been accused a few times over the past week of having a Jewish bias. If I were Jewish, I'd probably feel twitchy.

And the Judaism board has, so far, been a jewel in terms of faith dialogue, with some great discussions between BB and Dauer on intra-Jewish issues, plus some great additional feedback from interested persons such as Bob X (see the recent Base 7 counting thread - brief, but extremely interesting). It's exactly the sort of thing that underlines the forums best founding intentions.

So the idea that we're going to see Jewish members potentially hounded on the Judaism board, with blanket assertions that Judaism is all wrong, is probably not going to sit well, and a reason in my mind why concerns are being raised, especially with the above context.

Hopefully I'll be able to sort something out.

 

[iBrian]

I do have to question your remark, "dictatorial self-promotion" referring to me.

Most forums tend to have a strict policy on self-promotion, especially by newer members, plus your enthusiasm to promote your website and ideas came across as far to aggressive previously - ie, directly challenging other people's views, rather than simply introducing your viewpoint.

I see you doing much more of the latter now, which is why I didn't try and restrict your posting when you rejoined - I'm giving you a chance because you are showing aptitude for being part of the community at present.

You don't have to drop your ideas at the door - I just expect people to appreciate that accepting others will disagree, and have a right to their own ideas and thoughts, is perfectly understandable. You can say what you believe, and leave it like that.

The trouble with the New Age Prophets we get is that they usually don't - they claim Divine Authority to be right, everybody else is wrong, and have an overbearing attitude of LISTEN TO ME! It tends not to go down well in a community environment, and, yes, I've seen a string of self-styled prophets and even someone claiming to be Jesus returned on my times admin'ing forums.

All I ask is that everyone plays by the same rules, you're showing that you can so far, so I'm not taking action on the basis of past history. As a sign of good faith, I've also just removed your website from the forum censors.

 

[Faithfulservant]

Personally.. I wish the Christian forum was run as clean and tight as the Judaism board. I think bb does a wonderful job keeping the haters and the people trying to subvert thier beliefs in check. Noone likes to be disrespected or have their faith be disrespected.

 

[nativeastral]

Personally.. I wish the Christian forum was run as clean and tight as the Judaism board. I think bb does a wonderful job keeping the haters and the people trying to subvert thier beliefs in check. Noone likes to be disrespected or have their faith be disrespected.

if by disrespect you mean questioning held fast beliefs then surely ones faith is not strong enough to withstand such scratching or 'subversion'; interfaith dialogue means just that and doubt is the other side of certainty so you cannot have one without a little bit of the other. I would agree elsewhere mentioned that one feels one is on eggshells here even more so than on the christianity one, which has historically dissected its theology no less than judaism [compared to the 'newer' abrahamic muslim sanction against any speculation].

back to the question of Israel :

'that which is hateful to you, do not do onto your neighbour. That is the torah, everything else is commentary. Go and study it'. rabbi hillel

cant comment, cant study here when we are gagged because of personal insults? Why not list a set of prohibitions then so we know what and what we are not allowed to discuss because l do not want to inadvertenty offend anyone anywhere but even the above quote may with regard to the OP so may as well stay away and this forum stay within the ambit and control of jews only?

'further when we are not made aware that institutions are patterns of behaviour over time and constructed by previous humans, they take on a kind of inevitability which,Berger says, seem like our own inner voices..they provide a kind of 'institutional imperative' which we more often than not blindly follow.
Thus in absence of this awareness institutions involve a large degree of deception..what is in fact voluntary and historical seems like it is necessary and given. Believing this is what Berger calls bad faith'. from P.Berger page

 

[Faithfulservant]

if by disrespect you mean questioning held fast beliefs then surely ones faith is not strong enough to withstand such scratching or 'subversion'; interfaith dialogue means just that and doubt is the other side of certainty so you cannot have one without a little bit of the other. I would agree elsewhere mentioned that one feels one is on eggshells here even more so than on the christianity one, which has historically dissected its theology no less than judaism [compared to the 'newer' abrahamic muslim sanction against any speculation].

You can respectfully questions someones beliefs.. You dont have to make fun mock or scorn them.

 

[nativeastral]

You can respectfully questions someones beliefs.. You dont have to make fun mock or scorn them.

l agree totally which is why l am considered not too humorous in that most jokes play on the put down of another [which l have to say is a more male dominated activity therefore one upmanship?]; jokes perpetuate stereotypes which we really need to extinquish and stop treating like its not serious, its only a joke, but at the expense of another, a group, a nation, a mother in law! but who has been mocking or scorning here, really badly? might as well just have intra faith dialogue then if questioning the 'truth' of 'reality' of each 'religion' is disallowed.

 

[iBrian]

I think the issue by comparison to the Christianity board is that there's little real sense of community or brotherhood among Christians of different denominations.

If you ever read Dauer and Bananabrain's exchanges, there can be a gulf of disagreement about the most profound matters, and yet both show great respect to each other because of their realised bond. Or, how I read as such, anyway.

Judaism seems to me to be a very communal religion which actively encourages the exploration of different philosophical viewpoints - whereas Christianity is split among denominations, which little tolerate each other.

Jews who disagree usually still recognise one another as Jewish - Christians who disagree often condemn each other as heretics.

2c.