B
One Way: the reason why Christian ecumenicalism is impossible
- Thread starter holysmoke
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I am a Christian and do not think Gandhi is burning in hell (did you know he vehememently refused being called Mahatma?) note nor do I believe in hell other than that of human creation.
Nor do I think Christianity or Jesus is anti-ecumenical. Some denominations may be, some people may be, but I surely can't lump all Christians into either of those statements.
Nick the Pilot
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Wil,
Do you think that Jesus is the only way to Heaven?
Do you agree that Gandhi chose not to accept Jesus as his personal savior? (I am begining to wonder if you think he did. I suppose this issue is up to a person's personal interpretation.)
Where do you think Gandhi is right now, or what he is doing?
It is fascinating that I believe in Hell while you, a Christian, do not. Is this some kind of reverse synchronicity...?
If a person believes that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus, then I don't see how such a person could be ecumenical. I guess it depends on one's defintion of the word ecumenical. (Such a definition is key to this thread.) Feel free to share your definition.
Do you think that Jesus is the only way to Heaven?
Do you agree that Gandhi chose not to accept Jesus as his personal savior? (I am begining to wonder if you think he did. I suppose this issue is up to a person's personal interpretation.)
Where do you think Gandhi is right now, or what he is doing?
It is fascinating that I believe in Hell while you, a Christian, do not. Is this some kind of reverse synchronicity...?
If a person believes that the only way to Heaven is through Jesus, then I don't see how such a person could be ecumenical. I guess it depends on one's defintion of the word ecumenical. (Such a definition is key to this thread.) Feel free to share your definition.
citizenzen
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Where does this notion of a personal agenda come from?
Everybody has a viewpoint. But an agenda?
How does that work in an anonymous forum?
I come here to engage and exchange. What else is there to be attained?
NOTE TO SELF: Need to rethink scheme to turn other forum members into zombie slaves now that element of surprise has been lost. Must resort instead to Plan B.
No, thru putting on the mind of Christ.
I know many Hindus and Hindu priests who believe in Jesus Christ, who have his picture on their walls and in their temples. I don't know about him.
I don't know anything regarding existence past this one. I believe he was probably close to his last incarnation, he could be my neighbor or yours or be posting here as HolySmoke.
I don't believe in a physical place of fire and brimstone and souls greiving forever, but again I have no personal knowledge of existence past this one. I do believe two people can be in the exact same situation and one percieive to be in hell and one in heaven (the kid that finished his book report last week and the one that hasn't read the book sitting at their desks as the teachers asks them to get out their papers and read them to the class)It is fascinating that I believe in Hell while you, a Christian, do not. Is this some kind of reverse synchronicity...?
Christ understood I and the father are one. Once we do, once we completely understand that, I believe we are ready for the next class.
I'll keep studying though, don't want to be caught not ready to give a report when asked.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Mind if I join in? I just wanted to say that thinking Christ is the only way to the Father says nothing about Heaven or a need to accept Jesus as personal savior.
Just my 2 cents. As Wil describes, I believe it is going through the Christ (that is, walking through that union of divinity and humanity) that brings one face to face with God.
I guess people can define Christian any way they want and then shove those of us who are more moderate-liberal out of that fold, which is convenient to shore up their own position. But it is not true to the diversity that was in the early church or the diversity Christianity encompasses now. A Quaker has a very different worldview from a Dominionist, but they claim the same scriptures and they both claim to follow Christ.
I'd also agree with Wil. I have no idea and I see no purpose in trying to figure out other people's (or my own, for that matter) afterlife scenarios.
It is fascinating that I believe in Hell while you, a Christian, do not. Is this some kind of reverse synchronicity...?
I don't believe in hell either. Actually, a lot of Christians don't believe in a literal hell.
I found the dictionary definition most unhelpful:
If ecumenicalism is promotion of worldwide Christian unity or cooperation, I fail to see how Christianity could be anti-ecumenical by believing Christ is the way to God.
Are we really talking about interfaith tolerance, believing salvation is capable outside of being Christian or ???
G'wan Nick! never miss a chance to pump out the old propaganda! Lord, we Catholics must have you guys running scared!
If you mean ecumenism in the sense of pretending there aren't any differences, then yes, both he and I, following reason and logic, rather than sentimentalism, reject that rather silly and soppy notion.
I learned a profound lesson in true ecumenism when, as a teenager, I said to a very close black friend, someone I had grown up with "I don't see you as coloured at all" ... to which she replied, "that's a shame, because I am black, and I am proud of my heritage."
+++
Please be precise. I assume you mean some fundamentalist outfits? Not us Catholics, that's for sure.
For a thinking man, you do talk utterly superstitious nonsense at times.
No, you are usurping this forum to punt your tired old propaganda, which is a bad purpose, and shame on you. But it's your karma, not mine.
Oh, by the way, d'you know Gandhi and the Catholic Church's views on marriage, sexual morality, contraception, are the same ... for that alone, we reckon him one of the good guys!
Thomas
Netti-Netti
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Romans 6:23 says that eternal life is through Christ Jesus. Also, Acts 4:12 says "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” Sounds like a pretty exclusive arrangement.
“No one comes to the Father if not through me.” (John 14:6) ok, so I looked up the term "way" in the Greek Lexicon. The passage in John ("I am the way, the Truth, and the Life). The Greek term for way is "Hodos." The passage in question has been interpreted as indicating a particularizing claim (e.g., there's no other means to salvation). Interestingly, in the New American Standard Bible, use of the term Hodos apparently makes no distinction about singular or plural: "highways, journey, path, paths, road, roads, streets, way, ways."
Moreover, the metaphorical definition of the term is given as "a course of conduct" and "a way (i.e. manner) of thinking, feeling, deciding." If Christ Jesus is seen as the embodiment of a realization of sanctity, then the statement "I am the way" could be interpreted to mean that "an attitude of faith/love/obedience is the way."
holysmoke
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And I accuse you of being a toady. If Brian cannot accept criticism of his forum then I think he needs to let it go to those who can. I started a forum once because I found so many of these internet forums are run by heavily biased individuals or groups but found I didn't have the money or interest actually to promote my site and very few found it and joined. When a glitch happened so that I couldn't access my own forum administration and I couldn't get help fixing the problem from the free forum people, (Simple Machines Forum) I let it go. But I still want to be part of a forum to express my opinions and thereby warp other minds to my own ideology, like all the rest of you.
I do desire to see some forum ownership that isn't heavily biased but maybe that's like asking for the moon. It seems those who start these forums have a strong tendency to be control freaks who want to control other peoples communication of their ideas and who will not tolerate others criticizing their forum management methods or forum ideologies. I guess I just miss the old Lycos boards which were the very best ones ever--censorship was done only to the very obvious hate and slander posts and Lycos people formed lasting friendships for years after the Lycos forums closed down. I think these lasting friendships evolved naturally because members could post their real beliefs without fear of monitor or forum owner interference. I was about the only Gnostic Christian poster in the Lycos Christianity boards and when I first started posting of course traditional Christians there jumped all over my heretical views. But you know what? After about 3 months of getting to know each others beliefs we all started accepting the fact that dispite major differences our common ethics held us together so that in the end we had made strong friendships between Evangelicals, Catholics, an Israeli Jew, and two muslims. Now that was to me real interfaith forum dialogue because it was arrived at without any sort of compulsion to squelch our differences.
Then if you don't have the time, energy, money or wherwithal to create your own or find something better...and those lasting interfaith friendships are gone...then you'll have to deal with the likes of us.And I accuse you of being a toady. If Brian cannot accept criticism of his forum then I think he needs to let it go to those who can. I started a forum once because I found so many of these internet forums are run by heavily biased individuals or groups but found I didn't have the money or interest actually to promote my site and very few found it and joined. When a glitch happened so that I couldn't access my own forum administration and I couldn't get help fixing the problem from the free forum people, (Simple Machines Forum) I let it go. But I still want to be part of a forum to express my opinions and thereby warp other minds to my own ideology, like all the rest of you.
I do desire to see some forum ownership that isn't heavily biased but maybe that's like asking for the moon. It seems those who start these forums have a strong tendency to be control freaks who want to control other peoples communication of their ideas and who will not tolerate others criticizing their forum management methods or forum ideologies. I guess I just miss the old Lycos boards which were the very best ones ever--censorship was done only to the very obvious hate and slander posts and Lycos people formed lasting friendships for years after the Lycos forums closed down. I think these lasting friendships evolved naturally because members could post their real beliefs without fear of monitor or forum owner interference. I was about the only Gnostic Christian poster in the Lycos Christianity boards and when I first started posting of course traditional Christians there jumped all over my heretical views. But you know what? After about 3 months of getting to know each others beliefs we all started accepting the fact that dispite major differences our common ethics held us together so that in the end we had made strong friendships between Evangelicals, Catholics, an Israeli Jew, and two muslims. Now that was to me real interfaith forum dialogue because it was arrived at without any sort of compulsion to squelch our differences.
Hint: many here, myself included have paid the piper of time establishing our ground and playing by the rules as wework on our unique aspects of individuality...if you'd like to play it would behoove you to play nice ands take the time to establish yourself as well.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
I think your second part of the discussion pretty much sums up what I think the first part of your discussion means in practice.
That is, it is about transformation of the person, not about choosing a religion.
path_of_one
Embracing the Mystery
Holysmoke- it sounds like you miss your old friends on a different forum, wish we were like them and the forum ran according to your standards, but you can't be bothered to spend any appreciable amount of time or money to build what you seek.
So, if I am understanding you correctly, you don't really want to work that hard at creating what you want, but you'd like to complain about some other person's vision of dialogue until you get what you'd like out of the deal. It's worth it to you to spend time complaining, but not building your own.
As for ignoring differences, I've never ignored differences between my faith and other people's here. I've had debates and often said "I don't agree with this or that." People are censored/banned here for very few reasons: because they promote their websites/books/whatever rather than coming as an individual, because they attack others rather than engage in dialogue, because they resort to name-calling, because they repeatedly and deliberately fail to post in the proper location (which is an indication of prosyletizing- for example, posting in the Islam board that Christianity is the best or whatever).
I've managed to (so far) be polite for years and still debate and be honest about my views, exploring differences and similarities. I haven't squelched any of my views. So I am puzzled as to why you think it is necessary to do so here.
So, if I am understanding you correctly, you don't really want to work that hard at creating what you want, but you'd like to complain about some other person's vision of dialogue until you get what you'd like out of the deal. It's worth it to you to spend time complaining, but not building your own.
As for ignoring differences, I've never ignored differences between my faith and other people's here. I've had debates and often said "I don't agree with this or that." People are censored/banned here for very few reasons: because they promote their websites/books/whatever rather than coming as an individual, because they attack others rather than engage in dialogue, because they resort to name-calling, because they repeatedly and deliberately fail to post in the proper location (which is an indication of prosyletizing- for example, posting in the Islam board that Christianity is the best or whatever).
I've managed to (so far) be polite for years and still debate and be honest about my views, exploring differences and similarities. I haven't squelched any of my views. So I am puzzled as to why you think it is necessary to do so here.
citizenzen
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Hey! HEY! HEY!!!
I'm supposed to be the insulting, bickering button-pusher around here.
You take that to another street corner.
Paladin
Purchased Bewilderment
CZ a toady? Seriously? I always thought he was more gadfly than toady. Why just the other day while he was subtly deriding a post I had just made I thought to myself "Sheesh! Who peed in your cornflakes?" But of course I thought better of actually saying anything about it, you know just in case someone really had.
You miss the point that JPII made. Many paths lead to truth, and regardless of what path one takes to find truth, one will ultimately stand before Christ, and have to acknowledge that revelation...just a matter of time...
I see nothing disengenous about what he was saying. A bit cryptic for some I suppose, but not deceptive or slight of hand.
All roads lead to Rome, all paths lead us home...(I read that somewhere).
citizenzen
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After reading your post I thought to myself...
God must have peed in my cornflakes.
But of course I thought better of actually saying anything about it. I wouldn't want to offend the Christians here. They can be really touchy.
Netti-Netti
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In retrospect, this is really a sloppy attempt to find Biblical support for an exclusivist view on Christ Jesus' stature. Why would one automatically assume that "eternal life" should be equated with "Salvation" ?
Perhaps "Eternal Life" pertains to an individual existence that partakes of the Divine Directive. I think the term is "soteriological consumation" - i.e., the continuation of G-d's work in history.
Now why would God want to pee in your cornflakes? That would do absolutely no good for your complexion...After reading your post I thought to myself...
God must have peed in my cornflakes.
But of course I thought better of actually saying anything about it. I wouldn't want to offend the Christians here. They can be really touchy.
citizenzen
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Maybe it was Satan.