Nothing

I said:
Because those things which mean the most and carry the most reward, require most effort? :)
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I don't follow the logic. They were already up stream to begin with... Then they go down the stream..... Then at the end of it, they come back up the darn stream...... If I were a salmon I'd just stay at the top.
 
Alex P said:
I don't follow the logic. They were already up stream to begin with... Then they go down the stream..... Then at the end of it, they come back up the darn stream...... If I were a salmon I'd just stay at the top.
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Where the bears feast. :D
 
Beats.....

Having to get through where the bears feast.... down passed where the mountain lions feast, where the coyotees feast, where the larger fish feast then where the even larger fish feast to where the fishermen feast... AND THEN where the larger fish feast to where the big fish feast to where the coyotees feast to where the mountain lions feast to where the bears feast....

I'd just have the issue of the bears... and they hibernate and only come to the stream at a certain time of year.... ;) I'll take that risk over the latter. Sit there sipping some Tea and be all fat and chuckling at the salmons trying to get back up...
 
wil said:
Survival of a species is meaningless? Do we have sex for the same reason, blind meaningless evolutionary instinct?
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You know, there's a straight line in there somewhere, don't know if I want to touch it though...:)
 
Then there should be total chaos.. everyone does what they want to do.. to heck with the consequences. Overthrow your local government. Pirate a ship.. break into the nearest grocery store and steal all the beer and steak you want.. how about take it further and kill that sob that lets his dog poo on your lawn. Or rape that woman that dresses sexier than she should. we could even go deeper into this.. pedophilia beastiality ya'll get my point.

If there was just nothing than why do we have this moral law that tells us its wrong to steal lie rape plunder molest murder???

If there was no greater consequence why does anyone care?
 
wil said:
Survival of a species is meaningless? Do we have sex for the same reason, blind meaningless evolutionary instinct?
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Yes, this is life in Plato's Cave. The whole of organic life of which we are a part is a living machine, a process of transfoming substances through our bodily functions that serves the earth. The question is if human life can acquire a greater quality of meaning and conscious purpose from a conscious connection with influences from outside the cave.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Then there should be total chaos.. everyone does what they want to do.. to heck with the consequences. Overthrow your local government. Pirate a ship.. break into the nearest grocery store and steal all the beer and steak you want.. how about take it further and kill that sob that lets his dog poo on your lawn. Or rape that woman that dresses sexier than she should. we could even go deeper into this.. pedophilia beastiality ya'll get my point.

If there was just nothing than why do we have this moral law that tells us its wrong to steal lie rape plunder molest murder???

If there was no greater consequence why does anyone care?
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Exactly why I said I've got to admire the moral, ethical atheist...doing good with no carrot and stick.

While we grow to see the reasoning of doing good for goods sake, tis obvious that the noose is no factor and for many the promise of heaven and the threat of hell aren't enough either.
 
Faithfulservant said:
If there was just nothing than why do we have this moral law that tells us its wrong to steal lie rape plunder molest murder???

If there was no greater consequence why does anyone care?
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Is alleviating suffering and furthering love not enough reason on its own?

It is for some people.

And as Wil points out, all the threats of heaven and hell in the world don't motivate others.
 
Faithfulservant said:
Then there should be total chaos.. everyone does what they want to do.. to heck with the consequences. Overthrow your local government. Pirate a ship.. break into the nearest grocery store and steal all the beer and steak you want.. how about take it further and kill that sob that lets his dog poo on your lawn. Or rape that woman that dresses sexier than she should. we could even go deeper into this.. pedophilia beastiality ya'll get my point.

If there was just nothing than why do we have this moral law that tells us its wrong to steal lie rape plunder molest murder???

If there was no greater consequence why does anyone care?
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Be honest with me now. Suppose it were proven in some way that there was no God and no Karma and you developed the ability to become invisible. In other words you could do whatever you want without any fear of consequences. Would you go out and rob liquor stores, rape women, rob banks, and indulge in other similar delights? If not, why not?
 
Nick_A said:
Be honest with me now. Suppose it were proven in some way that there was no God and no Karma and you developed the ability to become invisible. In other words you could do whatever you want without any fear of consequences. Would you go out and rob liquor stores, rape women, rob banks, and indulge in other similar delights? If not, why not?
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Who knows, I may for awhile. I'm not good at hypotheticals. But lets take something for real...I was a degenerate ass for years, exploitation, wrong side of the law, taking advantage of whatever system. Age assisted in slowing me down, reading and understanding cause and affect slowed me down, getting married slowed me down, having kids put the end to it. Religion didn't do it, but getting connected to G!d by getting connected to people did, and then 'through the eyes of babes' the connection became solid.

And no, laws, religion, invisibility none would have any affect on me now. I understand the abundance of our world and the law of reciprocity and I enjoy participating in it all.
 
It is not necessarily the promise/threat of heaven or hell that makes belief in God significant for ethics. It can also be the philosophical/logical position that no system can validate itself. Ethics, no matter how you slice it, depends upon something being considered absolute to measure against so that there can be a right and a wrong.

You can choose a principle like "human life is sacred (or the ultimate value)" as an 'absolute' upon which to base ethics, but you don't have to go far to see that there is no reason for anyone else to agree to that principle.
 
I'm nothin' special, until I see a sunny day, and it's out to the greenhouse I go, plants in hand, some water, seeds, potting soil, and, oh, forgot my had today... my head looks like a radish. Next time, tomorrow, remember cap. Ok.
 
Nick_A said:
Be honest with me now. Suppose it were proven in some way that there was no God and no Karma and you developed the ability to become invisible. In other words you could do whatever you want without any fear of consequences. Would you go out and rob liquor stores, rape women, rob banks, and indulge in other similar delights? If not, why not?
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I know the answer to the question! I know! I know!

Because doing good feels good. Being at peace with the world, at one with God, feels good!

Why would anybody trade that in for robbery and rape?
 
citizenzen said:
I know the answer to the question! I know! I know!

Because doing good feels good. Being at peace with the world, at one with God, feels good!

Why would anybody trade that in for robbery and rape?
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Different things feel good to different people. To some doing good, being at peace with the world, and feeling at one with God is boring while robbery and rape adds a little spice to life. Why not?
 
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