One Year in Your Religion

I can appreciate how institutionalized science would be more interested in an institutionalized approach. However, didn't P_o_O say she wanted to try something other than the usual anthropologocal approach in her opening post? :confused:
 
BTW, path_of_one, the "How do you stop a flowing stream" was one of the first dialogues I had with a roshi. I remember that my answer was very similar to yours.

:D I dreamt up (literally) a lovely response, but then couldn't remember it past breakfast. Oh, well.
 
:D I dreamt up (literally) a lovely response, but then couldn't remember it past breakfast. Oh, well.

It wouldn't do you much good.

The roshi would still say, "Not good enough! Keep trying!"... if only just to bug you.
 
I get your point, path. One of the reasons came to this forum in the first place was to gain insight in the historical, politcal, and social backgrounds in the scriptures, particularly in light of a Jewish perspective. I wish my church would do this more.

Personally, I think part of people's basic education, both in church and in the public schools, should be the basics of all the major world religious systems. I am astounded at the lack of knowledge and understanding people have of other religions. I think it would strengthen each person's understanding of their own religion vis-a-vis the others, as well as promoting an atmosphere of mutual curiosity rather than fear.

Having said that, let me clarify what I mean by 'Bible-believing Christian'. Obviously, Christians from every denomination will share in one way or another a certain affinity with the scriptures to varying degrees. But the term is used to describe those who adhere to the belief that the Bible is the true inspired Word of God and hold to the basic doctrines, beliefs, and practices derived from it.

That makes sense. I am not doctrinally based, so I wouldn't fall under that definition. That is, I believe the Bible is a living message from God that is for each person to read so that she or he might be transformed and engage in a relationship with God Itself. I believe the value of sacred scripture is in transforming the human being through embracing the Mystery that is God, as well as providing practical insight into how to live a human life to its highest potential. To be honest, I have little use for doctrines and while I understand their value for people to feel like they have some grasp on what God and so forth is and how it all works, I tend to ultimately observe that these doctrines and beliefs are grasped onto to the exclusion of recognition and awareness of God as Unknowable Mystery. I don't get the point of defining things and laying out how things work. They work how they work, and I seriously doubt our puny little brains can translate it into thought and communicate adequately.

I see my own beliefs as shifting ground, changing as I learn, and rightfully so. I am not yet to a point where I can entirely exist without belief, without distinction, without thought and sign. But I am working toward it. I want to live in God's presence, to look at the world in compassion, peace, and joy. And I find that I am closest to this when I step out of a world of thought (doctrine, belief) and into a world of moment-to-moment being.

I recognize that perhaps that is not the case for others... but so far it hasn't been my observation. I find that the beliefs and doctrines divide more often than they unite, that they deter people from growth and encourage clinging to certain interpretations and ideas rather than cleaving people to a daily striving for the presence of God in their lives.

Our ideas get in the way...

In my denomination, we hold to a 'Statement of Faith' or 'Articles of Faith' which briefly outlines in a nutshell our beliefs, similiar in nature to the Nicene Creed.

That's kind of like the Nicene Creed, yes. A little more elaborate.

This list is by no means exhaustive, but it provides as visitor or member a means to examine what the church believes on certain issues and doctrines. And, you will notice, that everything is backed by scripture references.

I think what is difficult for me is that most people never acknowledge that we interpret scripture. Scripture isn't just what it is. To be put into action, it is necessary to interpret it. "Thou shalt not murder." OK, but what consitutes murder?

You see my point?

The trinity is a doctrine that is based on interpretation of scripture. Which is all well and good, but I figure I will interpret as little as I can get away with, and embrace unknowing and mystery in the rest.

That is, it seems clear I have to interpret what it is to love God with all my heart and so forth, and to love neighbor as myself. But do I have to interpret the Godhead? I don't think so. I can just approach God in humility, aware that God will be a mystery I am incapable of unraveling.

I suppose what is difficult to me is that I have little personal interest in the various churches' differences in doctrine. To me, it is only natural that churches disagree. They are approaching this Huge Something with our little human ideas and definitions and linear thought processes. Of course we'll all mess that up going at it that way.

What I'm interested in what a church does, and if its congregation shows the fruits of the Spirit. Are these people joyful? Are they thankful? Are they peaceful? Do they love others? Are they humble? Are they doing the things Christ did- healing, feeding, clothing, sharing with those in need? Ideas are just ideas. But one's customary attitude and sense of purpose are the external clothing of one's real, habitual faith.

I draw attention to that last phrase in the section for The Scriptures: The Bible is our sole authority for faith and practice. Unlike some other denominations, who rely both traditions and scripture as sources of authority, my church feels the safest way to go is with the Bible as the final authority in all matters spiritual and practical. The implication is that it guards from errors that might creep in through tradition and 'revelations'. The precedence for this is found in Mark 7:7-9:
"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

Sola scriptura. Of course, the classical danger there is that you have lots of people interpreting the Bible for themselves, when they are often unaware of proper linguistic, historical, and cultural context to make sense of any of it.

It seems inevitable that people take scripture and make it into doctrine and tradition. Strip it down to its bare bones and you have groups like the Quakers, who simply wait in silence for divine inspiration in their interpretation of scripture, and who espouse few doctrines and fewer traditions. But this seems unappetizing to most people, who want a group to belong to, a clear authority in a pastor, traditions they can count on, and ideas they can cling to. The question is how do we do this honestly?

Whether we do it ourselves or under the guidance of an authority that rules the church, it is done. Scripture does not turn itself into doctrine and tradition, yet churches rely on doctrine and tradition. There is a necessary step in between- the human being- which translates God's message and mystery into daily living and spiritual community. Do we translate this through reason? Through scholarship? Through personal inspiration from God, reading with the assistance of the spirit? Do we acknowledge God speaking to each of us today, guiding our understanding? All of this is differentially answered by churches and denominations.

"Why do many avowed BBCs claim that Jesus abolished the law and it is unnecessary for Jews to follow it?"
Jesus didn't abolish the Law, but fulfilled it, in that He provided the righteous requirement of the ritual law of atonement upon Himself according to Galatians 3 and Hebrews. The moral law (ten commandments) still stands, only the law kills in that when we break it we are guilty. But now in Christ, we are led by the power of Spirit, instead of the letter (Galatians 5:22-23). This opened the way for both Jews and Gentiles.

But then we get back to basing our understanding primarily on Paul and not on Jesus' teachings itself.

That was partially my discussion with her. American Christianity in general is heavily based on Paul's letters and not on Jesus' actual teachings. I have my reservations about this for many reasons. First, because I am a follower of Christ and not of Paul. Paul was a great guy, but he was a fallible human being who never even knew Jesus personally. He was not one of the twelve and was never taught directly by Jesus. Second, because some of what Paul says seems to be a radical interpretation of what Jesus' teachings say. This point, that the Jews are freed from the law by Christ, is one of them. Christ himself never seems to make that point. Third, that Paul's letters were written as letters- to particular people in particular times and places. Yet we treat them the same as Jesus' teachings. This is odd.

The biggest issue I have is that I've more than once ran into the view that we follow Paul because Jesus had too short a ministry to discuss some of the details- theological and practical. Jesus never said anything about homosexuality? That's OK, because Paul got around to talking about it.

But this is upsetting to me, because it makes it sound as though Jesus was imperfect. As if the plan was cut short and he simply didn't get enough years to say important stuff that needed to be said, so thank goodness we got Paul to follow up the Jesus act. Yikes. I follow Christ. The rest- Paul and all the other Christian saints, mystics, and so forth to the present day- are my fellow travelers but they are not my Lord. They may have insight, but they are not authoritative. I get very uncomfortable that the Bible is often treated as if it is just one big document that is all the same, when it is clearly not. It is an anthology of different works written for different purposes, and should be read as such.

Clearly the scriptures say that if you seek the Lord with all your heart, you will find Him. I believe this to be true whatever religion you are in. It's all about that sincerity in heart and a willingness to do what God is telling you to do with your life and learning to love others with the compassion and mercy of the Lord.
And maybe that is my denomination's pratfall. Perhaps too much emphasis is placed on sin and consequences and not on the whole point of atonement in the first place: to reconcile us back into a right relationship with God.

This is exactly my beef with it. Underneath the tendency to focus to much on sin and hell is an unwillingness to look at all humanity with an equally critical gaze and say: "We all fall short. Thank God for the love and grace He gives us."

All religion is a human-fabricated institution through which we hope to engage the mystery that is God, to usher ourselves into a relationship with God. Religion can't save us. It can't even demonstrate our salvation. Salvation is something only God can give and only God can know. All we can see are its fruits in people- the selfless love and service that is generated through increased awareness of God in every moment. The more the moments, the more consistently the person demonstrates selfless love and service without any desire for praise or reward. I have seen this in all religions, and in no religion. And I have seen hatred and greed in all religions, and in no religion.

One of my underlying questions in this journey would be... what is it in each religion that ushers in a relationship with God? How does each religion understand it? How does each religion encourage people to reach their highest potential- to be vessels for God's love and compassion?
 
Last edited:
The OP was about scientific inquiry, not about religious commitment or applications of faith. Much research on religion has been done by atheists and agnostics. That doesn't mean it's biased or that it doesn't tell us anything.

Actually, my OP wasn't so much about scientific inquiry. My stance is that scientific inquiry alone isn't all that useful for really understand how humans think about their religious/spiritual lives and how they determine where and how to practice.

I'm interested in the intersection of culture and the individual- how knowledge and practice comes to be social and yet is individually used, manipulated, created, and so forth in individual people. I'm interested in culture as "distributed systems of cognition" (a la Kronenfeld) and how religion may function to open human beings (or not) to something beyond these systems through use of them.

I'm rather skeptical of the functionalist approach, which has often been used in anthro to approach religion. Functionalism is fine, but I think the functional purposes of religion are often emergent rather than embedded in individuals' practice and belief, so it begs the question of what is going on in the individual and how does this translate into social function? That many/most anthropologists are atheist doesn't help, because in some ways that means an unwillingness to be fully open to the usual individual religious experience. It doesn't mean those studies are without merit, but that they are quite limited, as any such inquiry would be.

Overall, though, this is a project that I would do for myself, but with some of the rigor that is expected by my field. Why? Because if you're going to do something, you might as well do it to the best of your ability. Aside from that, the awareness that anthropology has given me of ethics in social research and experimentation (even in my own life) and the methodology to be self-critical of my own thoughts, feelings, and actions assists in a self-reflective approach, which is distinctive from the way most people learn a religion or any culture, for that matter. In many ways, the work would be informed by post-modernism and the phenomenological approach, similar to some studies of landscape by post-modern archaeologists.

That's fine, but scientists are for the most part pretty conservative and are not interested in sampling without knowing what and who they're sampling.

All that said, I am not so interested in questions about this vs that sect in a religion as I am in overarching questions about how the individual experiences communal practice, how community might influence belief and spiritual experience, the question of distributed cognition, intragroup diversity, and so on.

Personally, I am interested, as a mystic-type personality, what I experience in the different religions. That is, how much of religious experience for the individual is guided by their inherent personality and sense of purpose as opposed to the religion itself and group's avowed sense of purpose?

It's a personal journey first. So I'm not as concerned with sampling as I am with finding a group that is open and willing to let me participate. Of course I'd find out what group it is and the history of that sect and so forth, though. I can't imagine not doing that work- I'd be curious for myself.

They're not interested in surprises either. They're intersted in confirming theories. They want replicable results, which calls for carefully designed studies.

I'm interested in surprises. I hope to encounter some. If the world worked the way I thought it did, my work would be quite boring. Nor do I particularly want to confirm theories. I'd rather challenge them.

The post-modern critique in anthropology, while in some ways very unhelpful, did firmly ground us in the sense that our results are unlikely to be replicable, no matter how well we design our studies. We study human beings and groups, and these change over time, often very rapidly. We will never interact with the same exact group or individual twice. Our presence alone makes this impossible.

But that is OK. I am more concerned with honestly representing myself and the subject matter- the inherent limitations of anyone to study this stuff, and yet the value of understanding others within these limitations- than I am with feigning replicability.

With scarce funding resources, a scientist is much more likely to be funded if they have a specific and manageable research question and well defined sample selection method.

That is certainly the case. This type of research would be far too personal and far too fuzzy to get funding from say, NSF. And in order to do that (as I have before) I would have to basically ruin the research design and fall back on the same tired old ways of doing things that have so far been done. Yawn.

Fortunately, this work would be cheap for me to do and so I'd just invest my own money into it.

I actually would not want it funded by anyone, because in some ways, receiving funding demands that you alter your design and become pleasing to the funder. I don't want to be pleasing to someone else. I want to be honest to the experience itself.

In research, replicability is always an issue. Other researchers would wants to know where the sample came from in order to improve their chances of repeating or extending your findings. If the sample, characteristics are relevant to other variables of interest, it may be impossible for anyone to replicate in any other sample. Soon no one would cite your research anymore and that would be that.

I see this as a big problem in social science. If we are honest with ourselves, very little of anything of interest is replicable. People are not consistent in their behavior, and the personality of the researcher matters a great deal in any study in which the researcher does anything with participants. Even just interviewing people will have different results depending on the researcher- both their external qualities (gender, ethnicity, etc.) and their personality and intelligence. We should be honest and get over the fact that you can't study people the way you study bacteria.

In this type of journey/project, my own goals, views, and personality would matter a great deal. In fact, that is partly what I am critiqueing- that if you approach religious experience as an atheistic bystander, you simply aren't going to get as much out of it (or as much information out of practitioners!) as you would if you approach it as an open-minded seeker. In turn, my experience as such would differ from a "real" convert who intends to only be in that one religion for life. The way I see it, it is better that we are honest about these differences than to cover them up with feigned replicability.

As for people citing my research, to be bluntly honest, I could care less if I am entirely forgotten in my discipline. I got into anthropology in order to understand people better with the hope of spreading peace, understanding, and love of others. And with the practical hope that understanding how people think individually and in groups, how they make decisions, and how they generate a sense of social ethical order might make it easier to mediate conflict, foster inter-cultural understanding, and illuminate ways to generate sustainability and alleviate suffering. I'm a practical idealist. :)

I'm far more interested in publishing this project (if I did it) as a book for the public, or a PBS special, or a Nat Geo thing. I'd hope to spread inter-religious understanding through it, and some sort of joy and humor. I'm far less interested in what it would give to anthropology because, quite frankly, it's just not my primary concern. I do other research on cognition in much more tightly controlled environments that contribute to anthropological theory and method. It would be likely that the journey/project would give me some ideas and venues for cognitive research, but this would not be to understand religion, but rather to understand the structure and use of individual thought and cultural knowledge.

So, my long-winded way of saying- this project is informed by anthropology, but would not be done with the purpose of contributing to anthropology except as a critique. Publications arising from it would be for the popular press, not the academic ones. I find writing for academic purposes to be rather a dry and boring exercise anyway. As one of my students said:

"Why are anthropologists' stories so interesting, but their books are so boring?"

Why, indeed?
 
Actually, my OP wasn't so much about scientific inquiry.
Hi Kim,

Previously you wrote: "Since my profession is anthropological research, I figure I might as well do the thing properly and give the usual solid ethnographic year that is field-approved for participant observation, put serious work into understanding the beliefs and practices, history and so forth behind the religion, and dedicate serious time to the depth of it." (your post #36) To me this sounded like someone planning an involved study.

That many/most anthropologists are atheist doesn't help, because in some ways that means an unwillingness to be fully open to the usual individual religious experience.
It might help in avoiding personal bias.

I'm interested in surprises. I hope to encounter some. If the world worked the way I thought it did, my work would be quite boring. Nor do I particularly want to confirm theories. I'd rather challenge them.
It's very hard to take on existing theories. They may be are easy to dispute a a theoretical level, but gathering replicable evidence that actually disconfirms the predictions made from a theory is very difficult. It usually takes a series of studies to rule out the possibility of negative results due to methodological flaws. Studies that report negative findings are usually not publishable because a scientific field is set up for the systematic confirmation and refinement of theories that most scientists can agree on. Scientists build on each others' work. The likelihood of someone coming along with something really innovative is very slim because of the fundamentally conservative way that science grows. It's not really a virtuoso field.

We study human beings and groups, and these change over time, often very rapidly. We will never interact with the same exact group or individual twice.
That may be true, but general principles provide the groundwork for the later process of identifying exceptions to the rule.

As for people citing my research, to be bluntly honest, I could care less if I am entirely forgotten in my discipline.
I'm talking about the short term. Recognition in the field can be helpful in getting funding. Making a name for oneself is a major concern for many academics, especially if they're employed by a research university.

I find writing for academic purposes to be rather a dry and boring exercise anyway. As one of my students said: "Why are anthropologists' stories so interesting, but their books are so boring?"

Why, indeed?
Why do academicians write? Because that's what they do. For starters, having publications can be important to getting a job. I'm aware of some folks who landed positions who had 10+ publications before they even got out of graduate school. The decision to hire or to tenure a professor is rarely based only on numbers of publications. But if you don't have enough of them, you're at a disadvantage compared to folks that do have them. This is more an issue in an environment that's geared toward research grants. The ability to get grant money is highly dependent on publications, which is why promotions and tenure at a research university are directly influenced by number of publications.

Regarding research funds, maybe the project you have in mind does not call for them now. But you could easily decide to broaden the scope in a way that would require financial support. Funding agencies count the Principal Investigator's bylines because they see publications as evidence of research productivity and the probability of getting the funded work done. It's quite possible that a funding agencies dont even look at grant aplications prepared by investigators who have fewer than thirty publications. They just put them in another stack.

Even in an environment where grant monies are not at issue, an academic is expected to get at least 3 new publications a year. Unless you play the game, the tenure evaluation committee will get the impression that you don't value the game.

Young academics often have a hard time getting anything going because they initially move around before they get a permanent post. A project that may be personally interesting but has a low probability of yielding publishable articles could complicate matters. A book would give you only one byline. A series of articles might make more sense. Just some thoughts.
 
path said:
That makes sense. I am not doctrinally based, so I wouldn't fall under that definition. That is, I believe the Bible is a living message from God that is for each person to read so that she or he might be transformed and engage in a relationship with God Itself. I believe the value of sacred scripture is in transforming the human being through embracing the Mystery that is God, as well as providing practical insight into how to live a human life to its highest potential. To be honest, I have little use for doctrines and while I understand their value for people to feel like they have some grasp on what God and so forth is and how it all works, I tend to ultimately observe that these doctrines and beliefs are grasped onto to the exclusion of recognition and awareness of God as Unknowable Mystery. I don't get the point of defining things and laying out how things work. They work how they work, and I seriously doubt our puny little brains can translate it into thought and communicate adequately.

Doctrines aren't meant to replace the experience, but to define what it is we believe. It provides a framework so that we aren't swaying all over the place. (And there is a lot I'd like to say on this, but I'll save it for another thread). Further, we acknowledge that God is beyond human understanding in His nature. However, what we can know from God, from the knowledge of scripture AND from experience, will help springboard us toward the Mystery of God. But doctrine also keeps some form of unity in the church. No, I don't agree with every doctrine in my church. But I believe enough of it to continue serving God within it. Minor differences are no reason for incohesion. I tolorate them because I value the good things that are happening in that setting with me, my family, my friends, and what we are doing in the work of God.

Personally, I think we are all our own denomination. I don't think any two people will experience God quite the same. God meets us where we are. That's how diverse God is, some 6.7 billion ways.


I think what is difficult for me is that most people never acknowledge that we interpret scripture. Scripture isn't just what it is. To be put into action, it is necessary to interpret it. "Thou shalt not murder." OK, but what consitutes murder?

You see my point?

No, I don't. Jesus clearly spells it out:

"Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

He does a similiar thing with adultery some verses later, explaining that lusting over another woman is committing adultery with her already. The point is that our attitudes are the catylist for sin. 'As a man thinks, so is he' the proverb goes.


But then we get back to basing our understanding primarily on Paul and not on Jesus' teachings itself.

At one point, Jesus said that He came but for the lost sheep of Israel. So where does that leave us as Gentiles? Gentiles do not follow the Law. Yet He told His disciples to go into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature. So what is the Gospel? Everything He taught the disciples, which included following the Law. Does that mean we need to convert to Judaism? That wouldn't be practical now, would it? So what are we supposed to do? Live as strangers among the Jews?

Jesus said to the Samaritan woman, who mind you weren't looked favorably by Jews, that, "...the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father." Quite an un-Jewish thing to say, since Jerusalem was established the center of worship. And the basis for much of the Mosiac ritual laws. How are the Jews suppose to follow the Law if they have no place to properly worship? The Temple fell some forty years later, just as predicted.

But then Jesus said, "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Evidently there was a dynamic change in the way God is to worshipped. And I think that all ties into what Paul was all about. His contention is that rather following the the Mosiac Law, which would be impossible to do anyway, we should have the faith of Abraham, who was before the Law. The Law primarily for the nation which came out of Egypt.

I do like your suggestion that Paul may have been following a Noahide position, also. But you do make a good point about being too much emphasis on Paul's words rather than Jesus'.

One point about the homosexual issue, but I'll be brief. True, Jesus didn't specifically teach against homosexuality, at least with what is recorded in the Gospels. Maybe it wasn't much of an issue for the Jewish culture of His day, like the Roman culture of Paul's influence. But the Law expressly forbad it anyway, according to Leviticus 18, so surely Jesus must have abided by that teaching even if He wasn't vocal about it.

One of my underlying questions in this journey would be... what is it in each religion that ushers in a relationship with God? How does each religion understand it? How does each religion encourage people to reach their highest potential- to be vessels for God's love and compassion?

And that should be the question for every convert of any religion. Bravo, path!
 
Contrary to Snoopy's snippy remark, I haven't been "Off-topic."


Hold on! (not being snippy here!). My comment about being off-topic was about my own post for the creator of the OP (PoO). It was not a snippy comment aimed at you; I apologise if you took it to mean that. I know I can be as “guilty” of wandering as the next person, I’m just trying to curtail it in myself!

s.
 
path_of_one;195167 "Why are anthropologists' stories so interesting said:
'in search of the sacred, anthropology and the study of religions' by clinton bennett [cassell N.Y 1996] is a good read [albeit a historical overview].
 
Hold on! (not being snippy here!). My comment about being off-topic was about my own post for the creator of the OP (PoO). It was not a snippy comment aimed at you; I apologise if you took it to mean that. I know I can be as “guilty” of wandering as the next person, I’m just trying to curtail it in myself!
No biggie.

Btw, If you see someone wandering aimlessly, he/she is prolly a photographer.

Picture is called Acceptance, by Marsha Elliott....

acceptance-marsha-elliott.jpg
 
Back
Top