Fear in the God Fearing

[ciberpy]

Come on c0de.... you know well many millions are.

How is it that you are for freedom of speech, yet you also believe that mere words can enslave?

Fear not the moderators which will ban you, but can do no more: but rather fear him which is able to both ban you and place your soul in hell.

'Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.'

... nothing hid, that shall not be known.
... nothing hid, that shall not be known.
... nothing hid, that shall not be known.

Some people will not wish to believe that fact. There is their fear.

 

[citizenzen]

Fear not the moderators which will ban you, but can do no more: but rather fear him which is able to both ban you and place your soul in hell.

If I believed in that religion I'd be scared too!

 

[ciberpy]

If I believed in that religion I'd be scared too!

Should a child fear their parents?

 

[citizenzen]

Should a child fear their parents?

If their going to send me to Hell without my supper?!

YES!!!

 

[dailogue is the best]

My mindset cannot be constrained by the rantings contained in a single volume of contentious authorship compiled so many centuries ago. Fear is a complex human emotion and tying its comprehension to a faith paradigm is only asking for trouble.

Still misunderstanding is taking place, Tao..

Fearing God is actually freeing me, brother. Fearing God gives me total freedom. I fear no person/thing. God says:

[3:172] For those who respond to GOD and the messenger, despite the persecution they suffer, and maintain their good works, and lead a righteous life, a great reward. [3:173] When the people say to them, "People have mobilized against you; you should fear them," this only strengthens their faith, and they say, "GOD suffices us; He is the best Protector."

[3:174] They have deserved GOD's blessings and grace. No harm ever touches them, for they have attained GOD's approval. GOD possesses infinite grace.
[3:175] It is the devil's system to instill fear into his subjects. Do not fear them and fear Me instead, if you are believers.

With God, we are free from fear. A true Muslim knows that everything is done according to God's will. Hence, he/she isnt afraid of any person/thing. God says:

[9:50] If something good happens to you, they hurt, and if an affliction befalls you, they say, "We told you so," as they turn away rejoicing.
[9:51] Say, "Nothing happens to us, except what GOD has decreed for us. He is our Lord and Master. In GOD the believers shall trust."

A committed Muslim submits to one direction: God. If he/she is afraid of any person/thing then he is not a real submitter/Muslim. It seems like associating others for worship with God.

A Muslim shouldnot feel weakness or degradation towards any person/thing. God is All Powerful, Strong and with Him we seek refuge...

On the very contrast,Tao, faith is the very cure of fear...


I look at how God treats his creatures, and I feel His tremendous love,...

God says: "[10:44] GOD never wrongs the people; it is the people who wrong their own souls."

Read this full story and tell me what it says. The link is:
http://www.thebody.com/content/art367.html

This is a very touching part of it..the conclusion this person comes to...the real thing that God wants us to do...to connect Him, because it s only His connection that brings us peace...heart, deep peace, and expel fear forever...

Today, I am still working on myself and learning how to love and accept me. It is only through the grace and mercy of God, who I have allowed to be the head of my life. Through my spiritual journey, I found that God, not men, places or things, complete me.

 

[path_of_one]

There is no way to cop out!! You either have fear or you do not!

I already said I don't fear. Respect is something different entirely.

And I was pointing out that you cobbled together two things that do not necessarily flow from each other. Fear and belief in some sort of cosmic consequences of actions are not automatically corelated.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I already said I don't fear. Respect is something different entirely.

And I was pointing out that you cobbled together two things that do not necessarily flow from each other. Fear and belief in some sort of cosmic consequences of actions are not automatically corelated.

Not automatically no, but generally a thread has some proposition and in this one what you call "cobbled together" is the proposition The second option in the poll allows you to believe in some supreme cosmic justice that you do not fear. You and Wil wish to be disectory and that is fair enough. I too respect the ocean and see the empirical benefit of thinking about consequences (Karma). But sometimes when I display to a believer an irreverence they show a palpable fear and shock. Like they are afraid this big vengeful entity will hurt them for just being witness to my blasphemy. And I find that weird. Incredible even. I think the big monotheisms can and do indulge in creating fear that is both irrational and cruelly devious. And I think that a topic worth exploration.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Still misunderstanding is taking place, Tao..

I see no misunderstanding I know what you are saying. I can see the rationalisation that you embrace.

[3:175] It is the devil's system to instill fear into his subjects. Do not fear them and fear Me instead, if you are believers.

If it is a system for the devil then it is a system for him also.

[9:51] Say, "Nothing happens to us, except what GOD has decreed for us. He is our Lord and Master. In GOD the believers shall trust."

Then anything you do is predetermined. You have no choice, freedom, will. And as 'he' is in competition with the devil to make you fear him more you may be in for a rough ride

All these quotes, they are to me like the ridiculous and intellectually impoverished rantings of a psychopath. Everything you say only reinforces that impression. The way you stretch and bend your thinking to find meaning in such nonsense is not only beyond me but it will always be beyond me. It is like the beaten wife who believes her husbands constant propaganda that every beating is her fault. It is a prison.








[/quote]

 

[Tao_Equus]

How is it that you are for freedom of speech, yet you also believe that mere words can enslave?

Because they do. They are not mutually exclusive.

Fear not the moderators which will ban you, but can do no more: but rather fear him which is able to both ban you and place your soul in hell.

'Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.'

... nothing hid, that shall not be known.
... nothing hid, that shall not be known.
... nothing hid, that shall not be known.

Some people will not wish to believe that fact. There is their fear.

Then there are others that get off on causing fear. Marry a wife that they can dominate. Children they can brainwash. Have only friends they can feel superior to. Will use every device they can muster to just taste a little bit of that power. Eventually it gets to torture, for the victims become desensitised to everything else. But even then surprisingly many remain defiant and spit gobs of blood in the torturers face.

 

[Tao_Equus]

No one is enslaved by a book.

Everyone has a creed, a code: a belief.

And you atheists are no different then anyone else.

Whatever.

can you agree to disagree?

 

[ciberpy]

The Hope and Fear are simply a matter of placing Faith or Trust in someone. If you fear what a person could or not do, you are simultaneously hoping what a person could or not do. I fear my own children: not meaning that I am afraid of my children, but that I place faith in them. As I place faith in them, I recognize what they could or could not do and I am concerned that they could make a destructive choice. Likewise I am hopeful that they could make choices they can grow with.

If their going to send me to Hell without my supper?!

YES!!!

Perhaps in jest, but you are placing a conditional: 'I will love you if...', 'I will hate you if...', 'I will trust you if...', 'I will fear you if...'. That is identical to the conditional that the parent placed: 'I will send you to Hell without your supper if...'. In that sense God is merely gravity. If you disobey gravity, then gravity disobeys you. If gravity will disobey you, then you might fear gravity. Yet the gravity is NOT to be feared, as in being afraid of, nor does the gravity make a choice of when to act. People, in part, will pretend to behave like gravity: If you do this, then I am gonna... (threat, bribe, conditional).

 

[ciberpy]

Because they do. They are not mutually exclusive.

I submit the only words that can enslave or defile are the words that an individual speaks: a person enslaves themselves with their own words, thoughts, and actions. Give me a word, any word, and I immediately have a choice. A choice of what to do with the word. With a choice there is no enslavement. At best I think you could say that a lie enslaves people... that you are manipulated by it. Also not true: there is a person behind a lie that wants to manipulate. It is not the word that does the manipulation. Likewise with a book, any book, it is not the word that causes people to pick it up and abuse.

Then there are others that get off on causing fear. Marry a wife that they can dominate. Children they can brainwash. Have only friends they can feel superior to. Will use every device they can muster to just taste a little bit of that power. Eventually it gets to torture, for the victims become desensitised to everything else. But even then surprisingly many remain defiant and spit gobs of blood in the torturers face.

I found this a bit interesting, because marriage is a joint decision, and the type of children a person has is not exactly their decision, and Jesus taught to decide to treat enemies as if they were friends. Ever hear the phrase, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned?"

Where exactly did Jesus torture someone? If there is a device... as you call a book a device to enslave... I take it that you are attributing it to the multitude of people who have written the book? Perhaps the same could be said of the individual who wrote a book about atheism. The motive is conjectured.

 

[Postmaster]

Come on c0de.... you know well many millions are.

Hmm I don't know about that Tao. I think religion is a reflection of culture but not without spiritual merit. The book was created by a culture so you can't separate it from the people. Many people seem to assume that when someone does something differently that they are enslaved and in a way they are right because everyone is enslaved to be fair.

 

[17th Angel]

I fear no punishment after I die.

If I am doing something wrong, I would expect the being that makes the rules to personally tell me so..... I'll continue doing what I'm doing until then.

No riddles.
No games.
No bs....

Face to face.... Tell me straight..... As I haven't heard a peep, I must be doing ok.

 

[Postmaster]

In what form would you expect him to tell you so? If we look at God in the monothiest terms, pretty much means everything belongs to him. Even other people and yourself. So do you think it's at all possible that he can communicate through someone else, say through a judge, a cop, your parents, teacher or prophet? So in this case maybe he does speak to you, but maybe for some reason your expecting some big mouth to appear out the sky, whatever would give someone the idea it should be like that?

 

[wil]

You and Wil wish to be disectory and that is fair enough. I too respect the ocean and see the empirical benefit of thinking about consequences (Karma). But sometimes when I display to a believer an irreverence they show a palpable fear and shock. Like they are afraid this big vengeful entity will hurt them for just being witness to my blasphemy.

Tis ok, tao...they have the same reaction to us. The fear and shock they display though in my mind is or could be two fold. One is due to their belief system they have a genuine concern for your soul. Second is your actions may cause them to question their beliefs, equally inducing concern.

I believe everyone is on a path and learning as they go. Everyone is also in their belief system for a reason, they have a level of understanding or an item of insight that can be gained by participating with whatever religion as it gets added to their experiences in this life/plane of existence (or another). Not to say one is further along the path then the other... seems sort of like a scavenger hunt to me, you need to figure out all the clues, find all the skillsets... the order isn't the concern, the cumulative effect is...

 

[path_of_one]

Well, I voted but it is still somewhat dissatisfactory compared to my own belief. LOL I have to be difficult in these sorts of things; I always hate multiple choice.

I ditto Wil's last remark. And Tao, I am concerned quite deeply with the use of fear to control and manipulate people- both through religion and through other means (nationalism, rantings on the economy, etc.).

Fear shuts down people's higher cognitive functioning and makes them much, much easier to control... as well as to push toward aggressive action (fight) or passivity (flight). I actually believe that evil in human beings stems from unchecked root of fear. If our "higher" selves rule over our emotions and impulses, then fear has its rightful place- to be honed into the respect we need for physical survival (that is, the type of instinctual and beneficial fear we still experience through instinct, that would have preserved us during our early evolution as critters that were more prey than predator). But when we allow our fear to rule over the rest of our being, it is quite a nasty turn indeed. Because we have evolved extensive capacity to manipulate and control others, to harm others... fear can be quite problematic.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I submit the only words that can enslave or defile are the words that an individual speaks: a person enslaves themselves with their own words, thoughts, and actions. Give me a word, any word, and I immediately have a choice. A choice of what to do with the word. With a choice there is no enslavement. At best I think you could say that a lie enslaves people... that you are manipulated by it. Also not true: there is a person behind a lie that wants to manipulate. It is not the word that does the manipulation. Likewise with a book, any book, it is not the word that causes people to pick it up and abuse.

I disagree. Enslavement to words can and does happen all the time in religion. The adoption of the words as a worldview is enslavement to it. How many here have trouble posting without inserting some quote or other?

I found this a bit interesting, because marriage is a joint decision, and the type of children a person has is not exactly their decision, and Jesus taught to decide to treat enemies as if they were friends. Ever hear the phrase, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned?

Where exactly did Jesus torture someone? If there is a device... as you call a book a device to enslave... I take it that you are attributing it to the multitude of people who have written the book? Perhaps the same could be said of the individual who wrote a book about atheism. The motive is conjectured.

Joint decision!! Well it is for most folk in the western hemisphere I suppose. But many marriages are loveless violent relationships, many children despise and fear their fathers. Many more are strangers together for some unfathomable long forgotten reason. Only a small minority enjoy what we refer to as an ideal marraige. But in Islam, for example, we see instituionalised mysogenistic fear encouraged in verse after verse. And female Muslims embracing it as though it were the opposite!! Quite astonishing really when you take 5 on it.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Tis ok, tao...they have the same reaction to us. The fear and shock they display though in my mind is or could be two fold. One is due to their belief system they have a genuine concern for your soul. Second is your actions may cause them to question their beliefs, equally inducing concern.

Well as I say, let me worry about my own soul and belief is pie in the sky if it has no rational evidence. I don't want to burst bubbles so much as I want to explore truths, but its unavoidable sometimes.

 

[citizenzen]

But in Islam, for example, we see instituionalised mysogenistic fear encouraged in verse after verse. And female Muslims embracing it as though it were the opposite!! Quite astonishing really when you take 5 on it.

I am a staunch women's rights advocate. (totally PC )


But I am not a Muslim

or a woman.

So if a Muslim woman tells me that she feels "this way" or "that way" about her religious and cultural life experience my first inclination is to trust her.

We would only ask the same of others... to trust our account of how we feel.