Fear in the God Fearing

Do you fear?

  • YES: I fear some cosmic retribution may await me if I do not uphold my religious principles.

    Votes: 4 26.7%
  • No. The above is an unreasonable proposition.

    Votes: 11 73.3%

  • Total voters
    15
Fear shuts down people's higher cognitive functioning and makes them much, much easier to control... as well as to push toward aggressive action (fight) or passivity (flight). I actually believe that evil in human beings stems from unchecked root of fear. If our "higher" selves rule over our emotions and impulses, then fear has its rightful place- to be honed into the respect we need for physical survival (that is, the type of instinctual and beneficial fear we still experience through instinct, that would have preserved us during our early evolution as critters that were more prey than predator). But when we allow our fear to rule over the rest of our being, it is quite a nasty turn indeed. Because we have evolved extensive capacity to manipulate and control others, to harm others... fear can be quite problematic.
Yup I go with that... and fear is used in every walk of life too.Advertising so often uses fear. The media, politicians, doctors, our parents, everybody using fear to sell some idea or product or illicit some behaviour. It really is inescapable..
 
I am a staunch women's rights advocate. (totally PC :))


But I am not a Muslim

or a woman.

So if a Muslim woman tells me that she feels "this way" or "that way" about her religious and cultural life experience my first inclination is to trust her.

We would only ask the same of others... to trust our account of how we feel.

I do see your point, really I do. But I have seen enough of Muslim belief and culture for my view to be informed and for my opinion to be solid. Individuals have experiences outside of that opinion of course but exceptions do not make the rule.
 
PM that counts under my

No riddles
No games
No bs

Rule...

*replays his words*

If I'm doing something wrong which is worth punishment it needs to tell me itself... Other than that I am not AT ALL accountable, as I know not what I do.
 
Yup I go with that... and fear is used in every walk of life too.Advertising so often uses fear. The media, politicians, doctors, our parents, everybody using fear to sell some idea or product or illicit some behaviour. It really is inescapable..

To be sure, advertising depends on it. The bulk of advertising is designed to make the viewer feel afraid of a lack of self-worth, social esteem, and so forth so that s/he must buy the product to assuage such fears.

I can't understand why anyone would choose to remain in such a cycle of fear and judgment of others, but most people seem to do precisely this, and the average person's life is governed far more by fear of other people's judgments of them (i.e., being kicked out of a social group) than fear in God. Ultimately, if one bases their worth and significance on the opinions of others, or if one presumes that God behaves in an equally capricious manner as human beings with all our attending flaws, inconsistencies, and fear-based emotions (including jealousy, greed, and so forth)... then it is a rough road indeed, and I cannot see any peace in taking it. It never ceases to surprise me how many people choose a life of fear over a life of peace and love and joy, but there is little I can do except try to ever more firmly fix myself on consistency in love and peace, and to share it whenever possible in a manner that I can hope is unthreatening.

Of course, to those determined to be fearful, everything outside their own narrow viewpoint will be seen as a threat.

All I can do is try to share the energy of love and compassion as much as I can, so as to soften the fear of difference in thought or general attitude.
 
Fear shuts down people's higher cognitive functioning and makes them much, much easier to control... as well as to push toward aggressive action (fight) or passivity (flight).

It's a little more complicated then that. There are aspects of fear, when faith is involved, which transcend the properties fear in the material... aspects most people can not understand.
 
I see no misunderstanding :) I know what you are saying. I can see the rationalisation that you embrace.

Actually, Tao, I dont think you are fully understanding me, or at least you think you understand, while you are not yet...

If it is a system for the devil then it is a system for him also.

Here Ithink you are questioning, and not making a conclusion, cause making conclusion needs the consideration of all over scriptures, and not cepending on sme, and letting the rest.

Look, Tao, deeply at what this verse is saying :"
[2:268] The devil promises you poverty and commands you to commit evil, while GOD promises you forgiveness from Him and grace. GOD is Bounteous, Omniscient."

Have you seen what the verse wants to say, Tao? The devil make people afraid from poverty. Hence, they stay subjected to those on authority, they hypocrite, they take bribe, they make business in unlawful things... The devil controls people by fear of poverty so that they stay under the controle of othres, and slip into doing unlawful things....

On the other hand, God is freeing us from ALL kinds of fear. God reassurea us that He i the bounteous.Hence, people sould strive for the right, satnd in the face of the oppressors, and defend their rights..Death/life/property are all at God's hands...

Another thing you seem to misunderstand, Tao, is the notion of fear from God in Islam...

I fear my God..my beloved God, and I would prefer dying than losing connection with Him...

I hope you read my lines carefully, Tao. God is not frightening at all. When I say I fear God, it simply means I fear losing connecting him...and how hard separation is after connection...how sad to feel "death" in your heart after being fully alive...how it is heartbreaking to miss the beloved and connecting him..

My relation with God is very personal, and I can feel Him dwelling in me..I can feel Him around me..I can feel when my"self" transcends the limitness of the body and its shortness to move by me high and high..I can feel the connection between earth and heaven...I can feel the oneness of the universe...I can feel the whole universe mentioning one word: God..

And suddenly, when losing connection, I can feel how miserable I am, I can feel how weak without Him...I feel myself alone, I become self centred...I feel lost and no person/thing can bring me happiness as that I find with Him..

That's why connecting Him and submitting to Him alone is the ultimate goal of my life. Thus, fear from God to me simply means losing His connection..I would prefer dying than making my beloved displeased with me...I love Him, and I am willing to do my best to fully submit to Him, and let my heart live in undescribed bliss and heaven

My fear from my Lord is a fear of displeasing a beloved...a fear to fail in maintaining the love bond..a fear to break the promise... a fear to show a weak, vulnerable love...a fear from separation...and how separation is bitter and breaking...let alone separating th most beloved...

As for the punishments one may face according to his/her deeds, then let me, brother, tell you that it we who punish ourselves as sister Path of One once said, and as I provided with you with that verse which says that God doesnt worng us, but it is we who wrong ourselves.

And more than that, brother, I can see in those punishments the core of mercy. You overlooked the story I provided you with in the previous post. The conclusion that woman came to us is wonderful, and it sums up the wisdom behind those punishments. Those punishements, which are caused by us, cleanse our hearts, purify us, and bring us closer to God..


Then anything you do is predetermined. You have no choice, freedom, will.



Again misunderstanding is taking place. According to Islam, Tao, you are given will to behave. God says:
[99:7] Whoever does an atom's weight of good will see it.
[99:8] And whoever does an atom's weight of evil will see it.

But you get only what is predetrmined for you by God, Tao. A true believer knows that anything harms him, wouldnt by any means avoid him. And that anything good comes to him, wouldnt by any mean go to another one...

A true believe does by the causes God asks him/her to do, and he/she is sure, peaceful, reassured in his/her circle of life, fearing nothing, but losing the connection with God...

And as 'he' is in competition with the devil to make you fear him more you may be in for a rough ride :eek:

hhhhhhhh..no way, Tao.. God is far to be defied by anyone..He s the All Strong..the devil is a motivator for me to promote in my relation/connection/submission to God by defying him..The devil has no power but seducing others, and it is their fault that they submit..

All these quotes, they are to me like the ridiculous and intellectually impoverished rantings of a psychopath. Everything you say only reinforces that impression. The way you stretch and bend your thinking to find meaning in such nonsense is not only beyond me but it will always be beyond me. It is like the beaten wife who believes her husbands constant propaganda that every beating is her fault. It is a prison.

You know what, Tao?! Now, as I was writing every word of this post, myself didnt stop saying me : "Tao is not concerned"... Myself is right I think, right?!!





 
OK, here's the thing: we are all, whether we admit it or not, afraid of death. We're afraid that's all there is. What religion does is allow one to transfer that fear from the strictly physical to the metaphysical. Instead of fearing death one now fears his "Maker." In the process a person gains a sense of control while moving a potentially paralyzing source of anxiety from the immediate and physical to a safe, purely symbolic position.

Chris
 
OK, all except you, hero.

damn rite

Common%20sense%20is%20a%20Super%20Power.jpg




p.s. your theory of projection is nothing new, nor is it necessarily valid.
 
OK, here's the thing: we are all, whether we admit it or not, afraid of death. We're afraid that's all there is. What religion does is allow one to transfer that fear from the strictly physical to the metaphysical. Instead of fearing death one now fears his "Maker." In the process a person gains a sense of control while moving a potentially paralyzing source of anxiety from the immediate and physical to a safe, purely symbolic position.

Chris
That would require one to believe in a being, an entity to relieve the fear than wouldn't it?

I believe I only fear things that are immediate and with warning. ie I don't fear falling when I am on the edge of a roof, but I do when I am slowly slipping or someone is pushing me.

I currently don't feel pushed toward death or slipping into it, so I have no fear of it. Nor do I believe in a G!d which requires my fear or praise.
 
It's a little more complicated then that. There are aspects of fear, when faith is involved, which transcend the properties fear in the material... aspects most people can not understand.

The problem is that faith is rarely based on an individual relationship with God. For most, it is based on what we are taught and conditioned by authorities who are in power, through social institutions.

And in that way, religion becomes very dangerous.
 
The problem is that faith is rarely based on an individual relationship with God. For most, it is based on what we are taught and conditioned by authorities who are in power, through social institutions.

And in that way, religion becomes very dangerous.
Would fleshly faith be an appropriate term to coin for this?
 
OK, here's the thing: we are all, whether we admit it or not, afraid of death. We're afraid that's all there is. What religion does is allow one to transfer that fear from the strictly physical to the metaphysical. Instead of fearing death one now fears his "Maker." In the process a person gains a sense of control while moving a potentially paralyzing source of anxiety from the immediate and physical to a safe, purely symbolic position.
It is said, perfect love casts out all fear.
God is Love.
Love is connection.
When you get to that point in life (however you did it matters not) where you feel connected to Source and you Know that you are connected, such things as fear of death become quite petty and meaningless.
If (actually...when) you die, you return to Source.
This does not mean that one becomes reckless and imagines themselves to be invulnerable, as the basic concerns of life are still there, but the neurotic fears are not.

Fearing God is another myth-conception which has been foisted upon us by manipulative clerics.
Besides the word implies respect and awe.
But people don't read the Hebrew dictionaries too often:rolleyes:, they must figure it was written in English and should be taken literally:eek:.
 
I've been to worship services at various denominational churches and have never heard a message that seemed to provoke fear. Apart from OT references to a vindictive G-d (that noone has quoted), I'm not sure what the substance of this thread it.
 
.

@ Path


No argument there. :)

I just wanted you to qualify your earlier statement with a clarification.

(ya know.. 4 the records)
 
Actually, Tao, I dont think you are fully understanding me, or at least you think you understand, while you are not yet...



Here Ithink you are questioning, and not making a conclusion, cause making conclusion needs the consideration of all over scriptures, and not cepending on sme, and letting the rest.

Look, Tao, deeply at what this verse is saying :"
[2:268] The devil promises you poverty and commands you to commit evil, while GOD promises you forgiveness from Him and grace. GOD is Bounteous, Omniscient."

Have you seen what the verse wants to say, Tao? The devil make people afraid from poverty. Hence, they stay subjected to those on authority, they hypocrite, they take bribe, they make business in unlawful things... The devil controls people by fear of poverty so that they stay under the controle of othres, and slip into doing unlawful things....
I think I do understand you. I can follow your reading and interpretation, your justification for giving it value. Do you really need Allah to be a decent person, to stop you lying, stealing, cheating, hurting etc? I see it that if we decline bad behaviour we do so of ourselves and for ourselves because that is where our moral compass naturally sits. What makes a person a philanthropist or a murderer? You think it is some choice given in an old book? The complexities of human choice and motivation can be difficult to unravel. But they are all human, we cannot blame nor thank god or the devil for anything and to do so is to neglect a very important facet of personal responsibility. Being the most pious and upright believer does not protect you from chance, good or bad. And the gods allow such injustice to prevail! Terrible diseases and afflictions, natural disasters, brutal tyrants, crazed gang leaders, petty thieves all conspire to make this world far from ideal, and difficult for the vast majority of us. What I believe you do is call what is good that which belongs to Allah and what is bad as belonging to the devil. I see it is futile to expect the evil-doers to develop a fear of god and repent their evil ways. Successful thieves and tyrants are usually bestowed with cunning, guile and inteligence. And are more than willing to press the god concept to their service.
Nowhere but nowhere can we see any evidence of outside, supernatural interference. There is no divine retribution, justice or law, just our own human made ones. We are all just people, with imaginations, fears and longings struggling through as best we are able. I appreciate what you get from your faith is important to you and helps you in some way. But to me the truth of what Islam is and how it was founded is the antithesis of nobility and righteousness. It is like using handfulls of putrid battlefield gore as poultices for the injured. It is a submission to a mysoginistic elitism. I could never overlook such truths to allow me to embrace the meaning and value you extract. It would be like me befriending a serial rapist because he once gave to charity. I think I do the right thing in looking at the religions holistically, assigning value to that which is good or bad within them. That I come out on the side of them being dark and malignant is because of the misery they have inflicted on billions is far far more important in the scheme of things than the selfish gratification I could extract from it. In such a selfish extraction you support the institution that does so much wrong. I could not do that.


You know what, Tao?! Now, as I was writing every word of this post, myself didnt stop saying me : "Tao is not concerned"... Myself is right I think, right?!!
I am just a man. An ordinary man. I will live my life and die then probably be incinerated, (though I would prefer a burial at sea, and to feed a few lobsters, crabs etc). I have a large extended family, my genetic heritage is as assured as anyones. I have produced two children, my biological emperitive has been met. I have loved often yet never hated. I have begged, borrowed and stolen. I have given, selflessly, and been brought to justice. I have helped some whom it has been within my ability to help, and others I have passed by. I am no 'saint' but I am also an infrequent sinner by any but the most judgemental standard. I do not need religion to be a reasonably good and very ordinary man.

This poem by the Scottish poet Robert Burns is in Scots dialect, you can find translation in the link that follows.Your tradition in Morrocco is Islam. Here Robert Burns is an institution. He was an atheist.

A Man's a Man for A' That

By Robert Burns, 1795

Is there for honest poverty
That hings his head, an a' that?
The coward slave, we pass him by -
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an a' that!
Our toils obscure, an a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hodding grey, an a' that?
Gie fools their skills, and knaves their wine -
A man's a man for a' that.
For a' that, an a' that,
Their tinsel show, an a' that,
The honest man, tho e'er sae poor,
Is king o men for a' that.

Ye see yon birkie ca'd 'a lord,'
Wha struts, an stares, an a' that?
Tho hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a cuif for a' that.
For a' that, an a' that,
His ribband, star, an a' that,
The man o independent mind,
He looks an laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an a' that!
But an honest man's aboon his might -
Guid faith, he mauna fa' that!
For a' that, an a' that,
Their dignities, an a' that,
The pith o sense an pride o worth,
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may
(As come it will for a' that),
That Sense and Worth o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree an a' that.
For a' that, an a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That man to man, the world, o'er
Shall brithers be for a' that.
 
The problem is that faith is rarely based on an individual relationship with God. For most, it is based on what we are taught and conditioned by authorities who are in power, through social institutions.

And in that way, religion becomes very dangerous.
So very true. Shame on moderators... method of teaching and conditioning is reprehensible and self righteous. An absolute abomination. A very dangerous religion indeed.
 
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