Fear in the God Fearing

[17th Angel]

Having buried my mother and father in law, my dad, my sister, three cousins, one that died with her three children in a house fire...plenty of grief to go around. But I don't walk in fear, of my death or of my children or my mothers or my sisters.

Is that living with death or being faced with death?

 

[c0de]

.


Path + Chris



@ Path

I think i may have screwed up again, by not qualifying my remarks in the beginning and thus giving the wrong impression... (i hate when i do that)

For me, the impermanence of my own consciousness comes about in moments of despair. In my moments of carelessness, however; the driving force behind my joy seems to be the (childish) realization of ultimate permanence of that emotion, which I believe will be restored to everyone eventually, and it is this belief which allows me to experience that moment without sadness... This is also what ultimately allows me to let go...

I believe that the underlying joy is as permanent as the consciousness which experiences it. The impermanence, for me, exists in that finite moment and temporal "things" themselves, which if we try to hold on to, will only break our hearts... but the heart, i know, needs to be broken to be made whole... i guess cuz man never learns from theory alone...




@ Chris

You know its amazing... how even though Kierkegaard was working from a different framework (Protestant) and even though I don't see things the way he did because of some key differences, I still share most of the same conclusions... Its so wierd cuz the parameters for our experiments start out so fundamentally different.. and yet somehow the result ends up being the same... like how the hell??? LoL



neways... as I was typing this post, a soundtrack (that I feel is very relevant) started playing 'randomly' in my playlist... and since i found a pretty good version on u2be... well, sharing is caring yea?

[youtube]xQDFaRKa_VE&feature=related[/youtube]

 

[wil]

Is that living with death or being faced with death?

I don't know if it is either. To clarify, there are definitely other emotions that come up when I first hear the word of another's transition, or when someone is terminally ill.

That being said, I just don't see death as an end, but part of the process, the circle of life as it were. I don't know what we transition to, but I am not afraid of the next experience. I experience some trepidation as I get onto a roller coaster...I know what is coming next. I experience some fear if I were asked to reach into a box that someone said a snake was in, and if I believed it... but I reach into boxes all the time and don't fear.

I wonder if that explains it? I have concern/fear over the known that is detrimental to me, but not the unknown. Folks that believe in hell, that know they have the potential of ending up there, fear death? Or folks that feel that the end is the end...fear death? And since I neither believe in the end or hell..I don't?

 

[path_of_one]

.
I believe that the underlying joy is as permanent as the consciousness which experiences it. The impermanence, for me, exists in that finite moment and temporal "things" themselves, which if we try to hold on to, will only break our hearts... but the heart, i know, needs to be broken to be made whole... i guess cuz man never learns from theory alone...

I would agree. When one lets go of the temporal things, including our sense of "self" (in terms of our bodies, gifts, intellect, etc. as being who we really are, when in fact these will change over time), then we are free to experience the deep joy of all that is left... which is God. This relationship is, I believe, the only real and permanent thing- the Divine in and through us. Everything else will fall away at some point, but the Divine. When we find ourselves in communion with God, we have found our real and permanent selves.

In those moments, of what should we be afraid?

 

[nativeastral]

This poem by the Scottish poet Robert Burns is in Scots dialect, you can find translation in the link that follows.Your tradition in Morrocco is Islam. Here Robert Burns is an institution. He was an atheist.

Robert Burns Country: A Man's A Man For A' That:
​

hey tao on same site he is considered a 'wistful agnostic'; as he has some connection up here in the North east of scotland l can well understand his antipathy of protestant calvinism in the shape of john knox, fear of not being the 'elect' so work damm work! [studied as work ethic by Weber].

Robert Burns Country: The Burns Encyclopedia: Religion, Burns and

Can't we admit religion was/is a means to allay this 'existential angst' and fear of the unknown beyond death? where are our ancestors? we must meet them again, we meet in dreams etc. we will be saved and reconnect if we follow the morals/virtues/rules/precepts/doctrines which have, time after time, in all the religious belief systems been promulgated.

5 + 5 + 1813 = 23 = 5 ; in the middle of the Lo Sho magic square [remarkably like the Hebrew symbol the sigil of saturn; l love numerology - anybody read linda goodmans stuff?? ] interestingly considered bardo states/physical beasts in angeles arrien 'tarot handbook' [shadow again]
5 discs mercury in taurus = worry [avoiding the present]
5 wands saturn in leo = strife [anxiety/frustration]
5 cups mars in scorpio =disappointment[reactive negative patterns of mind]
5 swords venus in aquarius = fear of defeat [or memories of]

 

[Tao_Equus]

What can I say, Tao. You are not created in vain, brother. You are created for a purpose. The purpose of religion, Tao, is not to make you an ordinary man...The purpose of religion, Tao, is to make you connect that creator...to transcend you material status, and to know that your life doest stop in a grave..It is your body who stops, but your spirit gets free, Tao, and meets Him...What have you prepared for the meeting, Tao?! a complete denial without any trying to know?!!

I know my life is not in vain. My two sons, in one sense, and all my actions, in another sense affect and will affect a sphere well beyond my individual mortality. Which is the most precious bee in the hive? All are equally replaceable. We are born, we reproduce and we die. There is nothing that happens within the range of the human condition that is not understandable as an evolved behaviour. From darkest secret deed to most joyous moment all human behaviour can be readily and easily reduced into the evolutionary story. The universe has a mechanical indifference to our individual angst. That product of our conciousness we know as mind, and on which we infer without any evidence some separate mythical entity called soul, comes into being as neural connections are made in our complex ape brains. As soon as the electro-chemical process stops everything contained in the mind is as dead as the body. Biology dictates that brain function is irretrievably damaged after just a few short minutes of oxygen starvation. There is no mechanism for mind/soul to transcend this death, yet.
I do not have a denial based on ignorance or through never having looked at the possibility of some kind of continuation. My denial is based firmly on evidence. All the evidence supports my contention that there is no individually meaningful extension of life beyond death. So best make the very most of the life that you do have. To waste it in the fear and love of superstitious fictions that bring more misery than anything else seems to me more than a little sad. And even if I am wrong, I would rather embrace my life for the real value it has to me and those I touch. A god that has an ego so fragile, a psyche so malignant that it requires to use judgement and vengeance over something it created in the first place is not worthy of my respect. Such an entity is only worthy of derision and rejection.

 

[Tao_Equus]

hey tao on same site he is considered a 'wistful agnostic'; as he has some connection up here in the North east of scotland l can well understand his antipathy of protestant calvinism in the shape of john knox, fear of not being the 'elect' so work damm work! [studied as work ethic by Weber].

You say tomato or tomaeto? A mans a man for aw that.

It is also such a beautiful poem... was surprised that there was not comment from anybody on it. All these verses of nonsense endlessly debated, a few line of genius and beauty, completely ignored.

 

[nativeastral]

You say tomato or tomaeto? A mans a man for aw that.

It is also such a beautiful poem... was surprised that there was not comment from anybody on it. All these verses of nonsense endlessly debated, a few line of genius and beauty, completely ignored.

hey even l dont know how to sing auld langs syne word for word [always too mashed by that time LOL same with strip the willow, s### where do l go now!!]. l think if a japanese were here they would have commented

 

[c0de]

... then we are free to experience the deep joy of all that is left... which is God. This relationship is, I believe, the only real and permanent thing- the Divine in and through us. Everything else will fall away at some point, but the Divine. When we find ourselves in communion with God, we have found our real and permanent selves.

In those moments, of what should we be afraid?

... rite on

: )

 

[nativeastral]

'everything is at its peak of perfection. this is especially true of the art of making ones way in the world. there is more required nowadays to make a single wise person than formerly to make the seven sages of ancient greece, and more is needed nowadays to deal with a single person than was required with a whole people in former times'
balthasar gracian 'the art of worldly wisdom' 1637

 

[ciberpy]

In those moments, of what should we be afraid?

The children of that belief.

 

[ciberpy]

Awesome!!! *rubs his hands together* Been too long since we had this battle, looking forward to where this thread goes now

Have you seen the movie, "The Great Debaters"? I think you might like it. I truly did.

 

[c0de]

The children of that belief.

... and what would you be afraid of exactly?

 

[ciberpy]

... and what would you be afraid of exactly?

Where there is hope, there is fear. Must I present you with a complete and exact list of my hopes and fears?

 

[c0de]

Must I present you with a complete and exact list of my hopes and fears?

No, just the ones relating to your "fear" of the "children" of that particular belief will do.

 

[wil]

'everything is at its peak of perfection. this is especially true of the art of making ones way in the world. there is more required nowadays to make a single wise person than formerly to make the seven sages of ancient greece, and more is needed nowadays to deal with a single person than was required with a whole people in former times'
balthasar gracian 'the art of worldly wisdom' 1637

quite nice but when I contemplate some of them ancient greeks...or any of that era...I wonder how true it is...as there are many of them that keep me in awe.

 

[dailogue is the best]

I know my life is not in vain. My two sons, in one sense, and all my actions, in another sense affect and will affect a sphere well beyond my individual mortality.

To say that your sons and actions will last after your mortality is for me an innate, common sense feelings in us that one's life doesnt stop at his/her death. You compensated that feelings of immortality by your sons and actions. You feel you are not going to "die" since your sons and actions will still represent you. You feel you are immortal..Your body is mortal, but your soul is not. That is the source of this feelings, Tao. This world life is just a small journey we undertake by its bitterness and sweetness, by its ups and downs, by its joys and sorrows, by its laughters and tears to make us learn the limitness of our body, the shortness of any materilaistic pleasure and to move by us beyond what is materialistic to open and activate the window that connect us to what i spiritual: spirit/heart...

We are immortal cause if you see the body, you dont see the spirit and you dont know its nature. If that body is going to return to its world: dust, that spirit is also going to return to its world. It is not a dust. It is somthing beyond our understanding, Tao. That spirit is immortal, and it is the one that gets free after death, and at that time, it seems clear how much this spirit had been activated and nurtured..


The Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said: "No human's will move from his station of accounting until he is asked about four things: (1) his lifetime, how did he consume it, (2) his body, how did he wear it out, (3) his knowledge, how did he use it, and (4) his wealth, how did he earn it and how did he spend it."

I do not have a denial based on ignorance or through never having looked at the possibility of some kind of continuation. My denial is based firmly on evidence. All the evidence supports my contention that there is no individually meaningful extension of life beyond death.

Well, Toa, this is the last thing you can declare you have an evidence about because to assume so, you in other words declare that you have a clearcut evidence that there is no god..no creator of you, and this amzaing world by its earth, heavens, people, animals, mountains, oceans, plants...

So best make the very most of the life that you do have.

Of course, brother, we must do so. Living life doesnt mean emerging in a pure matrialistic life which contributes to the pleasure of that mortal body. In other words, matrialistic pleausre is a mortal pleasure.

Taking the most advantage of life is by doing good to God's creatures and make them happy and contribute to their happiness as possible as you can...

Taking the most advantage of life is by developing your happiness and connection to God....take from the pleasures of life. They arent totally prohibited, but dont forget the Last Day...

The prophet Muhammed (pbuh) said: "Take benefit of five before five: your youth before your old age, your health before your sickness, your wealth before your poverty, your free-time before your preoccupation, and your life before your death."

To waste it in the fear and love of superstitious fictions that bring more misery than anything else seems to me more than a little sad.

You have no evidence that what I believe in is superstition. Plus, my fear from God brings equilibrium to my life cause any human being is very weak in front of temptations. Fear of God gives me strenght and willingness to pass the test.

Normally, it is the love of God that keeps one away from breaking His orders. Yet, in moments of great temptations, love may be weakned due to the rise of instinct, then fear here plays a very important role in bringing one back to his balance, and not doing bad.

A true Muslim should be witnessing the following three situations in all the time: love, fear, and hope. Hope remains an open door for those who may break God's orders. God always accepts repentance.

Islam and Muslims: Love, Fear, and Hope

I find my life is a bliss that I live through a very bright light and shine. Because of God, and thanks to Him, I m not getting into many many bad choices that cause some people bitterness and sadness only because they ignore God's orders.

By the way, I see this bitterness and sadness that these people experience as a clear sing of divine mercy and love: to cleanse them, teach them good experience, and get them near Him. As a good man once said : "If I get far from Him, He gets me nearer. And if I get nearer, He get closer and closer".

And even if I am wrong, I would rather embrace my life for the real value it has to me and those I touch. A god that has an ego so fragile, a psyche so malignant that it requires to use judgement and vengeance over something it created in the first place is not worthy of my respect. Such an entity is only worthy of derision and rejection.

If only you could see, Tao? If only you could know, Tao? I have never ever seen a vengeanful parent though he/she may punish his/her children. It is all for their benefit.

God is need of us. He is all Strong...Yet, he never stops His bestowing on us because of a sin..

 

[Ahanu]

Hey Tao,

I know my life is not in vain. My two sons, in one sense, and all my actions, in another sense affect and will affect a sphere well beyond my individual mortality. Which is the most precious bee in the hive? All are equally replaceable. We are born, we reproduce and we die. There is nothing that happens within the range of the human condition that is not understandable as an evolved behaviour. From darkest secret deed to most joyous moment all human behaviour can be readily and easily reduced into the evolutionary story. The universe has a mechanical indifference to our individual angst. That product of our conciousness we know as mind, and on which we infer without any evidence some separate mythical entity called soul, comes into being as neural connections are made in our complex ape brains. As soon as the electro-chemical process stops everything contained in the mind is as dead as the body. Biology dictates that brain function is irretrievably damaged after just a few short minutes of oxygen starvation. There is no mechanism for mind/soul to transcend this death, yet.
I do not have a denial based on ignorance or through never having looked at the possibility of some kind of continuation. My denial is based firmly on evidence. All the evidence supports my contention that there is no individually meaningful extension of life beyond death.

Assuming that there is a physical reality or that the universe is a seperate thing out there, that would perhaps be true, and I am considering that it could be! As I have learned from this site, it is good to be open to different opinions, and at least consider them before automatically rejecting them as true on the sole basis that it does not confirm my own view. Now, lets carry over your proposal of the truth of death to the following scenario:

Lets assume that I died a few minutes ago, and then you observe my dead body.

You see me as dead. You consider it a fact that people are born, and then people die. Thats just the way it is. Still, I am considering the biocentric theory of the universe, which says that you are creating the appearance of me being dead. In other words, your brain is creating physical reality. From the biocentric perspective of the universe, death is an illusion. *Oops, when considering your point of view, I just say something that is completely insane* After reading a little on the subject of consciousness, it is easy to discover that this is a complex issue. Tao, you do a good job in explaining the functionality of consciousness, but there is a deeper problem of explaining how consciousness is experienced . . .

"Consciousness has nothing to do with physcial structure or function per se. It is like the stem of the ground pine, there reaching through the earth at a hundred places, drawing its existence from the temporal reality of perceptions in time," say Robert Lanza.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

Can't we admit religion was/is a means to allay this 'existential angst' and fear of the unknown beyond death? where are our ancestors? we must meet them again, we meet in dreams etc. we will be saved and reconnect if we follow the morals/virtues/rules/precepts/doctrines which have, time after time, in all the religious belief systems been promulgated.

Yes. Religion is a cure for existential angst. That is: religion is the best cure yet for existential angst. It's funny how one discovers that fact only at the end of an intellectual skewering of faith. Too bloody smart for our own good we are!

Chris

 

[ciberpy]

No, just the ones relating to your "fear" of the "children" of that particular belief will do.

Should I "fear" my own "children", or your "children" instead? Do I have time for both?