I am sure some people are willing to come to an agreement.
This has certainly been a huge exchange, and I recognize I'm coming in at the end of it. Someone suggested it may be time to confine additions to this discussion to new points/material only, so I'm submitting this as information only without really attempting to argue a point of view:
First off, some here may be aware of some of the research of the Jesus Seminar in pursuit of the closest match that one can draw from the original texts to the essence of what made Jesus tick as a human being and a figure in history. At the Seminar, Jesus's remarks and deeds are weighed extensively in light of the particular text(s) where they appear and in light of how well they match other apparent aspects of the Jesus persona.
For some, this effort is simply a left-handed effort to undermine faith; for others, its basic methodology is merely somewhat flawed or even circular; for still others, the effort constitutes brilliant analytical work that's sorely needed. Whatever it be, I'm struck by the detailed philological and linguistic research from a few generations _earlier_ than this seminar, research that was kicked into high gear with the discovery of the Gospel of Thomas in the 1940s. If we view that earlier research without the added baggage of the Jesus Seminar's later more controversial efforts, a certain insight might(?) be gained into how Jesus viewed Jesus. That may or may not clinch the ultimate identity of Jesus. But anything that sharpens our understanding of Jesus's own perspective, where glimpsable, could prove useful.
The chief conclusions of the philological and linguistic scholarship of fifty-plus years ago centered around the increasingly formal and increasingly less colloquial style of spoken and written Greek in the Middle East the nearer one gets to the end of the 1st century C.E. In fact, the language was undergoing considerable change during that period while the culture there moved further away from preponderantly oral traditions at the outset of the century to preponderantly written ones at its close. As a result, some of the earliest texts describing Jesus display extremely colloquial oral habits of communication and others show more self-conscious literary habits. This process is mirrored in totally unrelated secular Greek documents of the same period, and from that, an attempt was made in the middle of the past century to fashion a rough chronological outline for the many early texts describing Jesus.
To cut to the chase, the provisional chronological order that was deduced -- and that the Jesus Seminar has founded much of its subsequent work upon -- looked pretty much like this (this is a very crude rundown of something that has developed myriad further details in the last half century or so):
A) parallel sayings of Jesus shared by the Gospels of Matthew & Luke and sometimes grouped under the heading, "the Q Gospel" (this could just as possibly reflect an oral rather than a written source);
B) the earliest version of the Gospel of Mark as preserved in the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus mss.;
C) the Gospel of Thomas;
D) the bulk of the Gospel of Matthew;
E) the bulk of the Gospel of Luke;
F) the Book of Acts;
G) the Gospel of John; and
H) the expanded version of the Gospel of Mark.
Since A, B, and C seem the earliest, they are judged by many as giving us the closest historical take we have on the essence of Jesus's teaching. Whether we accept that conclusion or not, key remarks by Jesus on who and what he is in these three texts seem relevant to this discussion. I'm just throwing these remarks out there for any impressions others may have:
Luke (Q): 10:21-22 In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will. All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."
Luke(Q): 22:28-30 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mark: 14:61-62 But he was silent and made no answer. Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?" 14.62And Jesus said, "I am; and you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."
Thomas: 61 Jesus said, "Two will rest on a bed: the one will die, and other will live." Salome said to him, "Who are You, man, that You, as though from the One, have come up on my couch and eaten from my table?" Jesus said to her, "I am He who exists from the Undivided. I was given some of the things of my Father." <Salome said,> "I am Your disciple." <Jesus said to her,> "Therefore I say, if he is <undivided>, he will be filled with light, but if he is divided, he will be filled with darkness."
Thomas: 99 The disciples said to Him, "Your brothers and Your mother are standing outside." He said to them, "Those here who do the will of My Father are My brothers and My mother. It is they who will enter the Kingdom of My Father."
For what it's worth,
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hello every body,
