Jesus is not God....part 2

inhumility said:
Thanks for providing the links.I have also noted your advice to quote a verse fully when quoting.
Thanks again
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He has a way of doing that, I think it's a texas thing...;)
 
BigBang said:
READ THIS. ACTS 2/22. "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know". THERE IS NO QUESTION JESUS WAS A MAN AND NOT GOD, WHEN GOD HIMSELF IS STATING THAT. HOW CAN WE CREATE BELIEFS WHICH ARE ACTUALLY CONTRDICTING TO GOD'S WORDS. MOREEVER JESUS NOWHERE IN BIBLE ACTUALLY HIMSELF SAID THAT HE IS GOD OR HE SAID WORSHIP ME DIRECTLY. ITS ONLY US WHO KEEP ON CORREPTING THE RELIGION AS WE WISH TO SEE IT.
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I agree with you.Jesus was a prefect man as all the Prophets/Messengers of God/God's Chosen/Guided Ones by God,had always been.Likewise Jesus was innocent man like all the God's Chosen Ones and God's Sent Ones alway had been.He was protected and supported by God as God always protects and supports Men of God, as this is a permanent attribute of God and God's attribute don't change. Jesus was never a literal Son of God or God;this term has been used metaphorically in Bible,and should be taken this way.
This is according to the Ahamdia-a faith in Islam,no offence to anybody is intented.
Thanks
 
BigBang said:
It is EXTREMELY FRUSTRATING to me when we very conveniently draw conclusions (according to our heart desires) of verses which are defiantly speaking about some other simple fact. While we blindly ignore a direct statement by GOD himself (eg. Exudus 20/3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me) only to project the story we have had since our fathers and it has been imprinted on our minds (true or false whatever, we do not even think about it).

Jesus was defiantly the mightiest and most loved messenger of God but not God himself.
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What I said was also simple.

God wanted people to understand Him through a human being. That is, actually, quite simple.

Some religions teach that God is understood through rules and laws. God is understood through something scientific, systematic, formal and deterministic.

I think the purpose of Christianity was the idea that we don't have to conform to all these rules. Our thinking doesn't have to be systematic and structured. We can think in the abstract, use our feelings, follow our instincts. Life doesn't always revolve around logic. A lot of the time it revolves around personal feelings and relationships. Feelings and emotions were either created by God, or already existed in God before He created us. A lot of things in life are inconsistent. Yet the human mind is still able to recognise these inconsistencies in life and adapt. The mind God created is able to think in the abstract. God gave us feelings so that we could better understand the world around us; our emotions simply put an emphasis on certain things.

Rather than having a religion that revolves around a system of rules and definitions, what we have is a human being. This human being not only conceptualises life, but also God. While we can never comprehend the infinite wisdom of God, there is no need to do that. What we can say is that God can be understood from what He created: us.

This is probably what it means in Genesis about us being created in the image of God. Therefore, we don't need some scientific philosophy in order to understand or define God. All we have to do is look within ourselves. God imprinted his signature in us when He first created us. Christ came to emphasise the point that we have the image of God. We simply have to discover what God placed in us.

If this was true, then it makes God's creation even more remarkable. While we can give God credit for creating something like that, God gives us credit for being able to discover this for ourselves in His creation.:)

This could be seen as the Way, the Truth and the Life from one perspective of Christianity. Jesus was the concept of these ideas tied together.

I think of that as something simple rather than complicated.
 
inhumility said:
I agree with you.Jesus was a prefect man as all the Prophets/Messengers of God/God's Chosen/Guided Ones by God,had always been.Likewise Jesus was innocent man like all the God's Chosen Ones and God's Sent Ones alway had been.He was protected and supported by God as God always protects and supports Men of God, as this is a permanent attribute of God and God's attribute don't change. Jesus was never a literal Son of God or God;this term has been used metaphorically in Bible,and should be taken this way.
This is according to the Ahamdia-a faith in Islam,no offence to anybody is intented.
Thanks
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prophets were counted to righteousness by their faith, however they were men and thus sinners therefore not perfect. however, jesus christ was sinless and holy therefore perfect an attribute only shared by God. so while he was a man--being born of mary, he was also god--being born of the holy spirit of god, and thru resurrection was glorified back to the father where he has eternal glory on the throne in heaven.
 
Re: Jesus is not God ......"

At what stage in Christianity did Jesus be accepted/introduced/or whatever-it-is, as God? Was it during his life-time or after his death? With due respect to Jesus Christ, when did Jesus become to be known as "God"? My concept of "GOD" is "THE CREATOR" - ONE WHO CREATED THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, KNOWN AND YET TO BE DISCOVERED
 
lets reason on the whole of the bible ands its harmony ,


regarding JOHN 1;1




In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.



many bibles translate that verse like that. it says at the end of the verse that ....the word was God .....

but does it harmonize with the rest of the bible when it is translated that way .

here are a few verses that would straight away put the bible in contratiction to itself.


(John 1:18) No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.


if Jesus was God then it means men have seen him .


(Philippians 2:6) who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.


when Jesus was in heaven with his father he was a spirit like his father ,he was in the same form ,he had a spirit body the same as the father is spirit. but he didnt even consider being equal to God . so it seems that he wasnt God.



(Genesis 1:26) And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.”


and in this verse he is talking to Jesus


more verses to come
 
harfim said:
Re: Jesus is not God ......"

At what stage in Christianity did Jesus be accepted/introduced/or whatever-it-is, as God? Was it during his life-time or after his death? With due respect to Jesus Christ, when did Jesus become to be known as "God"? My concept of "GOD" is "THE CREATOR" - ONE WHO CREATED THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, KNOWN AND YET TO BE DISCOVERED
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Great question! I presume you want it in writing and not a quote of a quote. I also presume you are concerned with the timing of the writing (was it 100 years after Jesus, or one day after).

Since the Gospels are agreed to have been written 30 to 150 years after Jesus, something sooner would be preferred. In light of this, I would have to show that the earliest recorded (actually written at a particular moment in time), would have to be three to 10 years after Jesus cruxifiction, since we find no recorded evidence at the actual time Jesus walked the earth (no books were being written about Jesus while he lived as a man).

These declarations can be found in letters to the Corinthians, Romans and Galations. These are considered to be in Paul's own hand and written shortly after the death of Stephen (by stoning), as witnessed by Paul himself. This would place these writings within three to 10 years after Jesus' death and ressurection.

v/r

Q
 
harfim said:
Re: Jesus is not God ......"

At what stage in Christianity did Jesus be accepted/introduced/or whatever-it-is, as God? Was it during his life-time or after his death? With due respect to Jesus Christ, when did Jesus become to be known as "God"? My concept of "GOD" is "THE CREATOR" - ONE WHO CREATED THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, KNOWN AND YET TO BE DISCOVERED
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Hello Harfim,
In order to understand this Mystery we must firstly have the spiritual capacity to do so. At the time of the Mystery of Golgotha there were some special souls who were able to apprehend it and then impart it to the rest of humanity - the author of St.John's Gospel for example.

But really, this is an ongoing project and it will take further developments in the bulk of humanity before we can understand the deeper aspects of this teaching.

As it stands, we have those initiates who can interpret the Christian Mystery and the rest of the Christian World which takes it on faith.

Now, why would the Creator of the entire universe come to this little speck (our Earth) to go through Death and Resurrection?

As a starting point we can study the notion of Christ as Sun God in pre-Christian and early Christian religions.

God Bless,
Br.Bruce
 
harfim said:
Re: Jesus is not God ......"

At what stage in Christianity did Jesus be accepted/introduced/or whatever-it-is, as God? Was it during his life-time or after his death? With due respect to Jesus Christ, when did Jesus become to be known as "God"?
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It's hard to say. The opening passage in the Gospel of John may be interpreted to suggest that Jesus was God, but it all depends on how you approach the Text. The Logos (Word) in that passage could always be interpreted merely as an agenda or program God was executing, and that Jesus was executing that divine program/agenda.

ie. the Logos (Word) was with God, and the Logos (Word) was God.

becomes

the Agenda/Program/Purpose/Phenomenon was with God, and the Agenda/Program/Purpose/Phenomenon was God.

If you say that the Logos refers to one being that possesses it, you might equate Jesus to God. Just to experiment and try to answer your question, I thought I might say this. If you see Logos as referring to two beings that possess the Logos, then it may start making sense . . .

ie. "the Logos was with God" refers to the Son who executes the Divine Program.

ie. "the Logos was God" refers to the Father who sends the Son who executes the Divine Program (Logos/Word).

With this approach, both are divine, but only the first is human and the second is a Deity. There is no polytheism here, as the first doesn't have to be God or a Deity. The Logos (Divine Program) is not greater than God, but a servant of God, and the Son carries out the Divine Program. Assigning partners to God? The Divine, ie. the Kingdom of Heaven isn't necessarily a higher plane of existence, but an alternate earthly reality, where, at that stage, the Son was the lone citizen. You could say that God was sending a human being from one reality on a mission in another reality.

You might say, based on this interpretation, the statement "Jesus is God" might be mistaken . . . but anyway . . . I hope that helps.

harfim said:
My concept of "GOD" is "THE CREATOR" - ONE WHO CREATED THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, KNOWN AND YET TO BE DISCOVERED
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I agree!!

Jesus was possessed by the same Phenomenon/Divine Program (Logos) that created the world. The opening passage personifies the Logos/Word as a person as a way of honouring God, and a lot of Christians see Jesus as the Logos/Word itself by definition, due to John 1:14 saying that the Logos/Word became flesh. This by no means defines Jesus as the Logos/Word. It could also mean that the Divine Program was carried out by something in the flesh, rather than the flesh itself being the Logos/Word.

When it is asserted that Christ made the world, it is by this definition. My suggestion would be that the world was certainly made through the Divine Program (Logos/Word), but whether you see it as Christ depends on whether you think he is the Logos by definition, or that he was merely an agent that served as an embodiment of the Logos/Word, carrying out the Divine Program.
 
John 17:3, RS: “[Jesus prayed to his Father:] This is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God [“who alone art truly God,” NE], and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (Notice that Jesus referred not to himself but to his Father in heaven as “the only true God.”)

John 20:17, RS: “Jesus said to her [Mary Magdalene], ‘Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” (So to the resurrected Jesus, the Father was God, just as the Father was God to Mary Magdalene. Interestingly, not once in Scripture do we find the Father addressing the Son as “my God.”)
 
Quahom1 said:
You did not answer Dor's question. Why is that? How many Gods are there? Simple enough question. I don't particularly care for the tract, answer, just yours.

v/r

Q
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i like the bibles answer it is more trustworthy:)
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,​
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.psalm 83;18
 
Dor said:
Don't forget my question Mee.
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The bible tells us many things , even who the true God is .



In the book of Isaiah, chapter forty-two, verse eight, the Almighty God says: "I am Jehovah, that is my name; and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise unto graven images." (AS) So now this only true and living God is no longer unknown to you by his personal name. He is Jehovah God.
 
mee said:
i like the bibles answer it is more trustworthy:)
That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,​
You alone are the Most High over all the earth.psalm 83;18
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Liar (lol) You like to hear what you want to hear, and that is all. The BIBLE states nothing that you claim it states. You bring no one to heaven here Mee, because no one but you gets to heaven, with the rest getting second best...that's ok with me though. I don't want your version of heaven.
 
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