Locking the Theosophy Thread

[Avi]

I think if we limited belief only according to archaeological records, there would be little room for religion in general. I think that's why it's called "Faith".

What keeps Nick's airplane in the air ? Is it his "faith" in Theosophy or the lift and thrust of the engine and wings ?

I have "faith" in things I cannot prove. The rest I call science. (However, I am not a scientific fundamentalist).

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Avi,

You quoted and commented,

"the preternatural giants..." "... it is not even mentioned that they are giants...."

--> Your reference to giants refers to giants.

I was not aware that Jewish tradition refers to Nephilim as psychological giants rather than physical giants. That is an aspect of Jewish beliefs that I have not heard of before. This is the value of this inter-religious discussion, the sharing and comparing of differing ideas, and giving each other the freedom to agree to disagree.

I say the giants existed. You say they did not. You are determined to prove me wrong. You are offended that I do not want to do the same to you. Rather, if we just agree to disagree, we can learn much more about each other's belief systems and find common ground for meaningful inter-religious dialogue.

 

[Avi]

I was not aware that Jewish tradition refers to Nephilim as psychological giants rather than physical giants. That is an aspect of Jewish beliefs that I have not heard of before. This is the value of this inter-religious discussion, the sharing and comparing of differing ideas, and giving each other the freedom to agree to disagree.

As I Reform Jew my interpretation is non-literal. I was raised Conservative Jewish and my recollection is that this interpretation holds to various degree even to Orthodox. Others may have different perspectives.

I say the giants existed. You say they did not. You are determined to prove me wrong. You are offended that I do not want to do the same to you. Rather, if we just agree to disagree, we can learn much more about each other's belief systems and find common ground for meaningful inter-religious dialogue.

If you say the earth is flat, we can agree to disagree.

But you are saying that you ascribe to a religious philosophy which holds racial superiority to be a tenet. That means that I disagree with your fundamental assumption. The entire analysis follows from the primary assumptions. Are you prepared to analyze this fundamental assumption ?

Your primary proof of this faulty assumption is the past existence of these 60 ft. giants. I reject your proof of the faulty assumption.

Recall your earlier quote. In that quote you point to "racial superiority" of the Atlanteans. Now it seems you have backed off that position:

But what of present-day human-types who fought against Atlanteans, the so-called giants of the Bible? Is this a case of racial superiority? I say it is. I do not consider the issue of racial superiority to be a forbidden topic of discussion. And, it certainly does not impact present-day mankind the way many people would think.

So. would you like to offer some other proof of your assumption of racial superiority ?

 

[Nick the Pilot]

I see present-day humans as being superior to the giants of the Bible. (Theosophy defines present-day humans and the giants of the Bible as belonging to two different races.) You say that this extrapolates into a Theosophical teaching of Jews being inferior to Nazis, but it does not. Theosophy teaches that Nazis may reincarnate as Jews in the future. (I am sure this must have happened already.) Theosophy warned that such Nazis would eventually end up the victims of their own hatred, but unfortunately, such warnings went unheeded. But karma never forgets.

Since you love to use the term racial superiority so much, and you love to accuse me of being a racist, it is time to give the terms a Theosophical definition. According to Theosophy, Jews and Nazis belong to the same race. (According to Theosophy, we are all part of the fifth race to appear on earth, and the biblical giants were the fourth race.) By definition, the racial hatred you love to continually point out is not racial hatred by the Theosophical definition. It is merely one group of people hating another group of people. Sorry, you have to find another reason to accuse me of approving of the ethnic hatred I see all around me.

Nice job of dropping the "the preternatural giants..." "... it is not even mentioned that they are giants...." discussion.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

By the way, the forbidding of ethnic hatred is the first rule of Theosophy. (I wish other philosophies would adopt such a rule.) Spouting anti-semitic comments can cause you to lose your Theosophical membership (as it should).

 

[Nick the Pilot]

One more things, since we are on the topic of races: As mentioned earlier, Theosophy teaches that the Atlanteans -- the biblical giants -- were the fourth race. The first three races were the Chhaya, the Hyperboreans, and the Lemurians, all who had disappeared well before Noah's time. (Noah's story is really the story of the destruction of the fourth -- Atlantean -- race.)

Getting back to Genesis, Theosophy says that Adam and Eve were members of the third race (This was the first race to reproduce sexually, which is the true meaning of the story of Adam and Eve. The story of snakes chasing fruit is a purely sexual story.) The humanity created on the Sixth Day was the first race in its entirety. On this point, Theosophy lends credibility to the story of Genesis.

 

[Avi]

By the way, the forbidding of ethnic hatred is the first rule of Theosophy. (I wish other philosophies would adopt such a rule.) Spouting anti-semitic comments can cause you to lose your Theosophical membership (as it should).

Nick, this is the first thing you have said that makes any sense to me.

The problem is that when Theosopical philosophy leads to genocide, you come back and say plegmatic things like:

"Can you see how this type of story was used by Hitler to deny the importance of Jewish history so that he could de-humanize the Jews and then put them in concentration camps ?"

--> A person can learn how to drive a car. Whether they then drive an ambulance or a crimimal's get-away car is up to them.

So maybe Theosophy needs to examine how they need to change their dogma so they can prevent the criminal from using their religious philosophy to commit genocide. To continue your analogy doesn't a conscientious car owner lock their car to prevent the criminal from taking it ?

Also, do you consider yourself a "fundamentalist Thesophist", in the sense that you believe every literal word in the "Secret Doctrine" as channeled to you by Ms. Blavatsky ?

 

[seattlegal]

Ok.




This comment made me pull out my JPS Study Bible (it is the most non-literal of the Jewish Bibles) and look up Nephlim.

There are two cases:





So in this passage, it is not even mentioned that they are giants, just "divine" (only the commentary mentions giants).

The second case applies to our discussion:





As a child in Hebrew School I learned that the Nephilim were not physically giants of enormous size, as Nick believes, and as the bold phrase suggests. Instead, this portion refers to the psychological issue which the Israelites had to deal with. After 400 years of subjugation in Egypt they were not prepared for the ordeal of returning to Israel and fighting with the well established Canaanites. In fact they would spend 40 years as nomads in the desert before they were ready for the battles they would face. This is not to say the Caananite population were not physically larger than the Jews. But there is no indication that they were 60 ft. tall, as Nick believes.

What about Genesis 6:1-8 and the nephilim being associated with violence? Wouldn't this make the controversy over whether they were physical giants or psychological giants moot? They could have been short guys like Napoleon or Hitler, and still be violent psychological giants/megalomaniacs.

More importantly, please let's not lose touch with reality. There is absolutely no archeological or anthorpological evidence that any such race existed, less so that they were the builders of Stonehenge .

There is, however, evidence of violence, genocide, and megalomania throughout history.

 

[Dream]

Nick you went and watched Fiddler on the Roof again last night. Nick, you were supposed to watch it two days ago, but you didn't. Obviously this was a delaying tactic. The above sentence was a joke, and I mean that. It does not mean I'm hostile or non hostile, just giving you credit for following through and watching the movie. Next you should see The Red Violin. Though it is unrelated, you might like it. It has the same creaky old feeling.

Serious question: is Theosophy like a college level Philosophy association or more like a religion or what? Does you have rites of some sort, like marriages or daily practices or are you more free flowing? You mentioned something called membership. It is thousands of years old? Is it a kind of club, fraternity, ecclectic occult practice or what is it?

 

[Avi]

What about Genesis 6:1-8 and the nephilim being associated with violence? Wouldn't this make the controversy over whether they were physical giants or psychological giants moot? They could have been short guys like Napoleon or Hitler, and still be violent psychological giants/megalomaniacs.


There is, however, evidence of violence, genocide, and megalomania throughout history.

SG, yes, one of the constant behaviors, independent of which Theosophical "race class" people belonged to, they have been violent. Are you suggesting that we have not evolved very much in recent time scales ?

By the way Nick, on what I think might be a related issue, what are your thoughts about creationism vs. evolution ?

Do you believe we evolved from monkeys (not like CZ ), or was it more a quantum leap, another Theosophical miracle ?

 

[nativeastral]

btw just to mention we do not have much of a clue what lies beneath most of the world's surface aka the oceans

 

[seattlegal]

SG, yes, one of the constant behaviors, independent of which Theosophical "race class" people belonged to, they have been violent. Are you suggesting that we have not evolved very much in recent time scales ?

It depends on what you mean by "evolve." Yes, we have made technological advances to improve our lifestyles--today, the clothing worn by the poorest of people is comparable to the clothing of royalty from not that long ago. We have made advances in food production, the ability to shelter people from the elements, and in communication and education. However, along with these positive technological advances that improve our quality of life, this same technology has empowered 20th century megalomaniacs like Stalin, Mao, Hitler, and Pol Pot to more efficiently kill people. Methinks we need to work on improving our spiritual side a bit yet.

By the way Nick, on what I think might be a related issue, what are your thoughts about creationism vs. evolution ?

Do you believe we evolved from monkeys (not like CZ ), or was it more a quantum leap, another Theosophical miracle ?

I'm not Nick, but I can say that I'm highly skeptical of macro evolution, and see spontaneous generation as virtually impossible. Does that in any way associate me with the genocidal megalomaniacs of the 20th century? (Oh yeah, didn't they all believe in evolution?)

 

[iBrian]

Avi, so far there has been no evidence provided that Theosophy was directly behind the Holocaust, but instead was one of a number of influences.

By all means, come up with facts to support your assertions - but at present, it reads as though you're making it a personal argument, and making fun of someone's faith, which is not welcome.

We're here to discuss matters of faith, not ridicule them, thanks.

 

[Avi]

Brian, it seems like my criticisms are no different than this poster:

I'm afraid I'm a little short on sources at present, but I seem to recall many years ago reading on the evolution of the Nazi Party's occult influences.

I seem to recall one inspiration was a repudiation of the Jews by Blavatsky as not fitting into her scheme of races, and that the Jewish race was therefore something of an aberration - or abomination.

I might be able to find something in one of my Demonology books if I look, but online this is about the closest I get, which appears to mirror what I'd already read:
Root Race Theory: Bavatsky's and other theosophy adherents theory about the 'root races' of evolving mankind, and their influence on the Nazis and Nazi Philosophy

So please send him a nastygram too

 

[iBrian]

I mentioned I'd seen Blavatsky referred to as an inspiration to the Nazi's, but Nick so far appears to have repudiated any direct connection between what Blavatsky taught, and what the Nazi's practiced.

 

[Avi]

I mentioned I'd seen Blavatsky referred to as an inspiration to the Nazi's, but Nick so far appears to have repudiated any direct connection between what Blavatsky taught, and what the Nazi's practiced.

When I read the earlier Theosophy thread that NA posted, I agree that Nick is coming at it from a peaceful and positive direction.

However my reading of Theosophy still confirms that their views on race were directly used in the development of Ariosophy which was the early form of Nazism.

Nick may be a good guy, but Theosophy is inextricably linked to racism.

I am pretty sure we will have many opportunities to re-visit, since Nick is quite interested in Eastern philosophy and my own interests are growing in that direction as well.

 

[iBrian]

It's worth remembering that Darwinian Evolution and theories on eugenics by his cousin, Francis Galton, were also used by the Nazis - but aside from some aggressively anti-science Muslims, I do not think science and evolution are usually regarded as a Nazi property.

Something I was going to mention in my original post, but deleted in case it distracted the thread, is that I believe the pro-Aryan model of race ( ie, the blonde/blue-eyed peoples) came from some guy in South America. I have a suspicion that if Blavatsky mentions "Aryans" it may be based from the Mahabarata. Perhaps that's something I should have left in.

Shame Father Christmas never brought me "Satan and the Swastika" by Francis X King when I was a boy, or else I may have been able to give more references.

 

[Avi]

Brian, I was going to drop this discussion, but it looks like you are trying to rationalize the Theosophical position, and this is just not correct. So I am sorry, but I have to disagree:

These debates were addressed within the Theosophical movement founded by Helena Blavatsky and Henry Olcott at the end of the nineteenth century. This philosophy took inspiration from Indian culture, in this case, perhaps, from the Hindu reform movement the Arya Samaj founded by Swami Dayananda.

Blavatsky argued that humanity had descended from a series of "Root Races", naming the fifth root race (out of seven) the Aryan Race. She thought that the Aryans originally came from Atlantis and described the Aryan races with the following words:
"The Aryan races, for instance, now varying from dark brown, almost black, red-brown-yellow, down to the whitest creamy colour, are yet all of one and the same stock -- the Fifth Root-Race -- and spring from one single progenitor, (...) who is said to have lived over 18,000,000 years ago, and also 850,000 years ago -- at the time of the sinking of the last remnants of the great continent of Atlantis."[21] Blavatsky used "Root Race" as a technical term to describe human evolution over the large time periods in her cosmology. However, she also claimed that there were modern non-Aryan peoples who were inferior to Aryans.

Aryan race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And whom, might I ask, do you think these inferior folks were ???

She regularly contrasts "Aryan" with "Semitic" culture, to the detriment of the latter, asserting that Semitic peoples are an offshoot of Aryans who have become "degenerate in spirituality and perfected in materiality."[22]

Lets take a look at the Merriam Webster definition of "racism":

Main Entry: rac·ism Pronunciation: \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\ Function: noun Date: 1933

1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race,

Ref: Merriam Webster on-line dictionary

When I started studying Thesophy, I had no pre-existing views about it. The more I read about it the more concerns I have.

Nick, am I missing something here ???

 

[Nick the Pilot]

Theosophy defines race as one of the five races that have appeared so far. All present-day people are said to be part of the fifth race. Theosophy does not use the word racial to describe differences between, for example, blacks and whites. But Theosophists are also aware of how the phrase racial hatred is used to describe hatred between some blacks and some whites, although that is not a technically correct use of the word racial, by Theosophical definitions.

Theosophy characterizes the semitic cultures as non-Aryan because the early Semites are said to have been cast out from the first small group of Aryans. (The Aryan group at this time was very small, and we can only wonder at what kind of conflict caused the two groups to go their separate ways.) Theosophy says the Semites chose to cast aside, change, and re-write the religious teachings the first leaders of the Aryans brought with them. It is for this reason that Semites are said to have chosen not to be a part of the Aryan world. We can say that Semites are from the same "racial stock" as Aryans (because they biologically originated from the Aryan race), but they chose to follow a culture and religion that was clearly non-Aryan, and create division in the Aryan world. It must repeated that Aryan here is not defined the same as Aryan is in today's culture of blond-haired, blue-eyed people. The Theosophical definition and the present-day definition of Aryan are as different as, well, black and white.

These prehistoric squabblings caused Semitic cultures to form separate from the Aryan culture of that time (and to have caused the Aryan leaders of that time a lot of trouble), but it must be said that all Semites are seen today as full members of the brotherhood of man, and Theosophy does not allow them -- or anyone else -- to be discriminated against today.

It is important to qualify what inferiority Theosopy sees. In Avi's own quote, Theosophy sees spiritual and material inferiority, and nothing else. Material inferiority refers to a quicker descent into materiality (and a quicker move away from spirituality) than the leaders of the Aryans were striving for at that time. As an example, we can point to (in Theosophy's opinion) the intentional re-writing of Genesis as proof that the early Semites were willing to cast aside and re-write teachings that the early Aryans saw as sacred, unchangeable, and un-rewriteable. Indeed, the early Aryans saw these changes as blasphemous, and the same claim can be made of Genesis as it exists today. One of Theosophy's strongest desires is to show the true original meaning of Genesis as it was, before it was intentionally re-written into its present form. From Theosophy's point of view, such intentional re-writing of Genesis is a clear example of spiritual inferiority.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

As a humorous anecdote, Theosophy points out a mistake by the people who re-wrote Genesis: they mistakenly left part of the original story intact. Genesis says Adam and Eve were created by a group of gods, which is the part about "let us make man in our image" -- the correct happening of events, according to Theosophy. The re-writers should have re-written this to say that it was a single God about to make man in His (singular) image. Fortunately, this "mistake" slipped through, giving us a glimpse of what Genesis actually said before it was re-written.

God also creates humanity (Adam and Eve) after having already created humanity (back on Day Six), another example of a sloppy re-write that backfired. (Theosophy says both events happened, but in a way utterly different than how they are portrayed in Genesis.)

Such re-writes are seen as clear examples of spritual inferiority, according to Theosophy.