Abortion

We had a vehement pro-lifer living across the street from us. Never knew exactly how vehement other than the bumper stickers plastered to the back of the station wagon and van and the things they spoke until after they moved and read the dad was linked to one of the clinic bombers.

So another thing I don't understand...Don't kill the unborn, but let's bomb the clinics, lets have our guns ready at our door, let's endorse state execution.

The family across the street...a herd of kids of course. And when they all crawled in the station wagon a couple flew into the 'way back' no seat belts... and when I tried to tell a couple of the younger ones they should ride on the 'right' side of the street, and look out for cars their parents told me to mind my own business...and when one was under the van with dad's tool box and little nuts and bolts and parts laying all around him and I knocked on the door and told the father he may want to check before he drives away...again I was told to mind my own business.

My view of that family's belief system? We must insure they are born live....so we may kill them later.
 
wow, wil thats crazy. I dont understand the bombing etc. that again to me, is wrong. Isnt haveing no seatbelts illegal? It is here, and chidren especially need all the protection, esp when in a car, that they can get. LOL. I just shuddered at the thought of a car full of kids, no seatbelts, and just been tinkered with by the kids. ( disaster waitng to happen.)
 
Exactly grey....but reality is they are the radical on that side and we shouldn't judge all pro-lifers by their actions..... and there are actions on the other side that are not the norm as well.
 
wil said:
We had a vehement pro-lifer living across the street from us. Never knew exactly how vehement other than the bumper stickers plastered to the back of the station wagon and van and the things they spoke until after they moved and read the dad was linked to one of the clinic bombers.

So another thing I don't understand...Don't kill the unborn, but let's bomb the clinics, lets have our guns ready at our door, let's endorse state execution.

The family across the street...a herd of kids of course. And when they all crawled in the station wagon a couple flew into the 'way back' no seat belts... and when I tried to tell a couple of the younger ones they should ride on the 'right' side of the street, and look out for cars their parents told me to mind my own business...and when one was under the van with dad's tool box and little nuts and bolts and parts laying all around him and I knocked on the door and told the father he may want to check before he drives away...again I was told to mind my own business.

My view of that family's belief system? We must insure they are born live....so we may kill them later.
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Cant rep you again already!!
 
Janz said:
You have a good heart Faithfulservant. I understand the once saved always saved teachings and being a member of the body of Christ. I did accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and was immersed for the remission of sins in 1996 in the Church of Christ: the condemnation came later.

I kept my past to myself and the interesting part was at one time I was asked to be a Bible Study Leader in Bible Study Fellowship (are you familiar?). Anyway, I did enjoy what I learned in BSF and was a member for 5 years when one of my good friends asked me to consider being a leader. The women of this organization are extremely conservative and I always believe in respecting the rules if I am going to be a part of a group that has rules. I could live with those rules and they told me that they were praying and God brought my name to several other women as one who was being called to leadership. They asked me to pray about it and then proceeded to give me the "secret list" of rules for leaders.
So I had to decline being a leader because one of the rules was a leader cannot be divorced, overweight or drink wine. Well, guess what? So the question of the day is how could God be calling me to be a leader of a women's bible study when He knew the rules and He knew my past?

When I told my friend that I couldn't be a leader and the reasons why, she was shaken to the core and accused me of being in denial about my scarlet past. See I had never told her any of this personal stuff and she wouldn't have asked me to be a leader if she had known these facts. I am not bitter about this happening..I am again thankful that my eyes were opened. From that moment on, I have been on my own path that has been full of spiritual awakening and growth. Am I saved? I don't worry about it. I believe in my God and I follow what I believe to be Jesus Christ's teachings but I am more of a Universalist.
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Ive quoted the song before.. My Jesus by todd Agnew in the lyrics its very clear that alot of the church today isnt representing Jesus very well.

Which Jesus do you follow?
Which Jesus do you serve?
If Ephesians says to imitate Christ
Then why do you look so much like the world?

Cause my Jesus bled and died
He spent His time with thieves and liars
He loved the poor and accosted the arrogant
So which one do you want to be?

Blessed are the poor in spirit
Or do we pray to be blessed with the wealth of this land
Blessed are they that hunger and thirst for righteousness
Or do we ache for another taste of this world of shifting sand

Cause my Jesus bled and died for my sins
He spent His time with thieves and sluts and liars
He loved the poor and accosted the rich
So which one do you want to be?

Who is this that you follow
This picture of the American dream
If Jesus was here would you walk right by on the other side or fall down and worship at His holy feet

Pretty blue eyes and curly brown hair and a clear complexion
Is how you see Him as He dies for Your sins
But the Word says He was battered and scarred
Or did you miss that part
Sometimes I doubt we'd recognize Him

Cause my Jesus bled and died
He spent His time with thieves and the least of these
He loved the poor and accosted the comfortable
So which one do you want to be?

Cause my Jesus would never be accepted in my church
The blood and dirt on His feet would stain the carpet
But He reaches for the hurting and despised the proud
I think He'd prefer Beale St. to the stained glass crowd
And I know that He can hear me if I cry out loud

I want to be like my Jesus!
I want to be like my Jesus!

Not a posterchild for American prosperity, but like my Jesus
You see I'm tired of living for success and popularity
I want to be like my Jesus but I'm not sure what that means to be like You Jesus
Cause You said to live like You, love like You but then You died for me
Can I be like You Jesus?
I want to be like my Jesus

song by Todd Agnew
​
 
Wow, that's scary wil. Crazy people out there... Lots of crazy people... That's why I prefer kitties. Much simpler.

That whole abortion clinic bombing thing was...yeah... crazy doesn't even cover it. Scary doesn't either.

I don't get how people can be like, "Life is sacred! And, I'd kill to protect it!"

I mean... what the hello kitty? Seriously, how does that make sense? *shudders*
 
It's interesting - the argument as to when a foetus can be classed as a baby is an interesting one.

My own personal concerns are especially focused on late term abortions, because by then the argument as to whether it can be called a baby I think are moot. Where the line is drawn, however, is such a grey area I'd have difficulty describing.

2c.
 
Warning, oversimplification to follow:

Folks that are against abortion place life/baby at conception, despite the fact that it can't live without a host.

Folks that are against contraception place potential life/baby prior to conception.

Folks that decide to have an abortion...generally...don't consider it life/baby.
 
As a supporter of abortion rights... it is life and it is human.

But it doesn't change my opinion that the rights of the woman carrying this human life supersede it.

Just as others may believe that the rights of the state supersede those of the condemned prisoner... or the soldier... or the civilian, seen as "collateral damage."

Show me someone against all these forms of elective death and you've shown me a true right-to-lifer.

Otherwise... get in line with all the rest of us. You're not really right-to-life. You're just right-to-some-life.
 
Spose I'm an anomoly....still as you put it right to some lifer.....

Prochoice, anti capital punishment, anti war, self defense....odds are, but we've talked ourselves out of guns pointing at us so far...
 
Cz, all of those examples you gave are of lives/rights of the many outweigh lives/rights of the few. A prisoner, usually guilty of killing one or more people, is put to death to better the economical position of the taxpayer, sounds cold but that's the facts, soldiers give their lives for the collective lives and/or rights of the larger group, many outweigh few. So they aren't the same as a mother terminating the life of a fetus growing inside of her. It's one persons rights or one persons life in that situation.

Are the rights and wishes , or even the life of the mother then, more important than the life of her child, that cannot live without her? Is the life of someone with a lung problem that is on a breathing machine, dependent on that machine until they recover, less important that the healthy nurse looking after that person?

For me, the rights of the mother don't seem more precious or important than the life of the baby growing inside of her. I'm not saying that she should have those rights taken away from her, but I don't think we should foster this type of thought, that it's perfectly fine to end a life, because it is dependent on outside influence. I don't think that we should take up the opinion that that life is less important.

It just seems kind of wrong to me... It's not an all or nothing situation. It's a question of morality, not politics.
 
immortalitylost said:
A prisoner, usually guilty of killing one or more people, is put to death to better the economical position of the taxpayer, sounds cold but that's the facts, soldiers give their lives for the collective lives and/or rights of the larger group, many outweigh few.
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a. there are soldiers on both sides of the war both using that same argument...seems to me indicates little validity in the argument.

as for the prisoner...economic...no. In the US it is typically three times cheaper to incarcerate them for life. Execution is violence about vengence, not justice.
 
immortalitylost said:
Cz, all of those examples you gave are of lives/rights of the many outweigh lives/rights of the few.
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You can search for differences between the them in an effort to make one more acceptable than the other, but they are all elective death.

As for your claim that the woman's rights do not supersede the fetus's life, the Supreme Court disagreed with you 7 to 2 in Roe v. Wade...

Roe v. Wade — wikipedia

Section V

The principal thrust of appellant's attack on the Texas statutes is that they improperly invade a right, said to be possessed by the pregnant woman, to choose to terminate her pregnancy. Appellant would discover this right in the concept of personal "liberty" embodied in the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause; or in personal, marital, familial, and sexual privacy said to be protected by the Bill of Rights or its penumbras ... or among those rights reserved to the people by the Ninth Amendment ...

Section IX

The Court added that there was no legal grounds for factoring into this balancing test any right to life of the unborn fetus. The fetus would have such a right if it were defined as a legal person for purposes of the Fourteenth Amendment, but the original intent of the Constitution (up to the enactment of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868) did not include protection of the unborn. The Court emphasized that its determination of whether a fetus can enjoy constitutional protection neither meant to reference, nor intervene in, the question of when life begins: "We need not resolve the difficult question of when life begins. When those trained in the respective disciplines of medicine, philosophy, and theology are unable to arrive at any consensus, the judiciary, at this point in the development of man's knowledge, is not in a position to speculate as to the answer."​
 
Wil, the soldiers on both sides of a war aren't to blame whether one side is wrong or not. Sometimes neither side is wrong from a moral standpoint.

And the prison thing, how could it be cheaper to furnish food clothing housing and basic medical care for the length of someones life than the compounds and equipment to terminate that life? I mean, I haven't studied it or anything, so you could be completely right, but where did you get the info on that? I'd like to look at it if that'd be ok.

Cz, I said that I don't believe the mother's rights should be taken away from her.
I am aware of Roe vs. Wade, and I agree completely with the ruling. I don't believe the government should have the right to make abortion illegal any more than they should have the right to make it mandatory.

I feel that the importance of life over the preference of the mother to stop that life, are moral questions, not political ones. And they are moral questions that only the mother can answer for herself.

I'm not stating that a woman should have her rights ripped away by the government. I am merely stating that I find it distasteful from a moral standpoint how rampantly this is used in situations that are the result of nothing more than a womans bad judgment. I find it morally wrong to use abortion as a means of contraception if no contraception was used during sex to prevent conception.

It's a question of being morally responsible to me. And a question to be considered by the pregnant woman herself. All I'm saying is that we should not trivialize the life of a child in the face of a mothers wishes. Life is more important to me than what somebody wants. I would consider it more important, the life of my child, than what I want. But it's for every woman individually to decide if what she wants, the life she had planned out for herself, is more important than the life of the soon to be child inside of her, and if it is, the lengths she's willing to go to keep herself on the path she had planned.

That's all.
 
immortalitylost said:
I'm not stating that a woman should have her rights ripped away by the government. I am merely stating that I find it distasteful from a moral standpoint how rampantly this is used in situations that are the result of nothing more than a womans bad judgment.
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Or vanity. I've read a number of times where people presume that it's done to avoid stretch marks. :rolleyes:

Frankly I think that attempting to judge women based on the assumed reasons they choose an abortion is questionable at best.

Suffice to say, the practice is legal... and until the laws are changed, I think the wisest way to approach the subject can be found in the words, "Judge not lest you be judged."
 
soldiers on both sides are killing for the collective good?

we don't live in China where they charge the family for executioners bullet. We live in the US where those on death row have extra guards, extra priviliges and a guaranteed minimum number of appeals.
 
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