Abortion

bob x said:
In more than 90% of abortion cases, there isn't anything you could call a "baby" yet, or even anything you can see without assistance.
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I suppose the issue could be that "we" were not anything one could see without assistance, for a short amount of time...:eek:
 
Bazactly, Q.

And if they don't want it, they don't want it, but it may sway some opinions, Cz. And that could do some good, no? :)

Lol, I saw my friends ultrasound pic when she was veeery early in her pregnancy, and I fell in love with the cute little blob, and I wasn't even it's mom. It's just the fact that you can see what is growing, I think. It's like a confirmation, and it really drills it inta you that it's a life growin in there.
 
immortalitylost said:
Bazactly, Q.

And if they don't want it, they don't want it, but it may sway some opinions, Cz. And that could do some good, no? :)
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You might also sway some opinions by disclosing the economic difficulties of single motherhood.

That might change a few minds, no?

Full disclosure cuts both ways, methinks.
 
True, true. But people in severely economically starved countries raise multiple kids. I mean, it may not be the best environment, but those poor kids (as in money poor, not deserving pity) may have a better childhood than the children of multimillionaires. You just never know...

And, I totally didn't address what you were actually talking about...
*smacks forehead*
It could go that way. But knowing the full truth of the matter before a decision is made is always better than a decision made based on a partial truth. Imo, at least... *shrugs* *skips away randomly*
lol, sorry, bad taste. I've already smacked myself for it...don't worry yourself...
 
immortalitylost said:
True, true. But people in severely economically starved countries raise multiple kids. I mean, it may not be the best environment, but those poor kids (as in money poor, not deserving pity) may have a better childhood than the children of multimillionaires. You just never know...
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And other countries let prisoners serve life sentences without caring how much it costs the tax payers.

Like I say... cuts both ways.
 
Like, instead of killing them?

Our US prison systems are like big penny pinchers for the tax payers then. I mean, we make the prisoners work for the honor of being prisoners, and if we know they're never getting out, and they've been bad enough, we euthanize them.

Not condoning, or condemning (watched Watchmen one too many times) just stating how it is... It's one way to run a system...

But at least the prisoners in that scenario have done something wrong, yano, instead of just being the "one kitten too many" or whatever...

So prisoners, are in a very real way, like unwanted kittens... really bad unwanted kittens that scratch up your draperies...

And once again, I'm being entirely inappropriate.

Someone should just break out the duck tape... really they should...

What I'm really trying to get at, I guess, is that it's kind of pathetic how conditional the terms are to end a life in our moral system. I mean, it's like saying... "Life is important... as long as you're not a prisoner...or an animal, I mean, come on they're not even human! Fetus's aren't really human either come to think of it... so they don't have human rights, pfff, of course they don't, what're you talkin about? You crazy!"

And the whole thing just makes me wanna smack somebody. But it's the way the world is. I mean, we can try to change it, but that's about it. And we'll probably, realistically, never succeed in that endeavor in full. And it sucks. But that's reality for ya...

The bad parts of life suck just enough to make you realize how truly good the good parts are. At least that's how I try to look at it.
 
I dont see the similarities in prisoners and abortions. And I dont care for any clarification.

Economic difficulties of single motherhood? So, single mothers are the only ones who have abortions?

Economic difficulties? Tell me, whose economic situation is the same now as it was for them, say 10 or even 5 years ago? I know my economic situation has changed both good and bad and back again tenfold.

Just another feeble excuse.
 
immortalitylost said:
What I'm really trying to get at, I guess, is that it's kind of pathetic how conditional the terms are to end a life in our moral system. I mean, it's like saying... "Life is important... as long as you're not a prisoner...or an animal, I mean, come on they're not even human! Fetus's aren't really human either come to think of it... so they don't have human rights, pfff, of course they don't, what're you talkin about? You crazy!"
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Dehumanization is often the first step in exploiting someone. Here's a thought experiment:

  • If you knew a person sentanced to death for a crime he committed, would you be able to pick that person out of a line-up of exact clones? (You can question them to determine which one is the criminal.)
    This certainly doable, if you really didn't know the criminal all that well.
  • If your beloved pet was in a line up with a bunch of exact clones, would you be able to pick it out from the clones? Of course you would. Your pet would know you, and would respond to the name you gave it.
  • If you saw and fell in love with an early term fetus that was growing within your body, would you similarly be able to pick out that fetus from a line-up of exact clones? (Same thing applies as for the criminal and pet above.) This would be very difficult, to say the least, for a fetus in early development. Even the mother might not be able to tell which one was hers. A fetus in later development would be easier because a discerning mother would be aware of the peculiar mannerisms her well-developed fetus would have.
My question is:
At what point in the development of the fetus would a mother be able to discern exactly which fetus was hers, and which ones were the clones? At which point in the development would a mother not be fooled by her fetus being swapped for an exact clone?

Is there some point in the development of the fetus that this occurs, or would it vary, according to how mindful the mother was towards the actions of the fetus within her body?
 
Because the fetus/child you are carrying would be yours and not the clone.
Upon conception it is my child, from that moment onward...
I have no idea of clones or the like, .... but a deliberate abortion of a life ....?

No similarities at all.
 
To me, trying to compare unborn infants to prisoners, or clones is just a way of de-sensetizing.(sp?).
The point we seem to be missing is that these fetuses/infants/babies are living. Whether their conception was wanted or the result of a traumatic attack, is beside the point.
Whether we think we can "afford" them or not, is a real predicament that can be addressed in the future, or not, but at least there is a future.
( I get realy annoyed at all the surveys that say it cost $xx to raise a child). If we all put the almighty dollar into the equation, only the rich would ever have children. That is, if they wished to part with a few bucks.
Whether we think a chid would interfere with our lifestyle, is just pathetic.

Ive said it a thousand times and Ill say it again, "Lucky for us , our parents didnt think that way!"
 
greymare said:
Even seeing the little blob, (that looks like a peanut) melts your heart.
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immortalitylost said:
Bazactly, Q.

And if they don't want it, they don't want it, but it may sway some opinions, Cz. And that could do some good, no? :)

Lol, I saw my friends ultrasound pic when she was veeery early in her pregnancy, and I fell in love with the cute little blob, and I wasn't even it's mom. It's just the fact that you can see what is growing, I think. It's like a confirmation, and it really drills it inta you that it's a life growin in there.
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That does not seem to be the case in India. What evidence do you have that it would be any different in "western" countries?
 
I find it interesting the word. Abortion.

For instance, my mother had three kids, and three abortions. There was a pregnancy before the first, which was aborted. Then my older sister was born. Three years later I was born, but there was an aborted pregnancy before me, and after me. And then three after me my younger sister was born. She was the last of my mother's six pregnancies.

Do we miss any of these siblings? I don't, I'll have to ask my younger sister though and see what she thinks. My older sister, I miss her, she died at 38 of juvenile diabetes, never got to see my children. My children never got to see her, I find that a shame. My children and I never got to see the three that were aborted either. I don't think much of that.

Oh, so you don't misconstrue, and focus any anger or incense at my mother. Back then what you call miscarriage today was called an abortion then. There is a spontaneous abortion where the mother's body rejects the child inside for whatever reason, and then there is a manual abortion where the mother's body rejects the child by choice.

In society today some reject one type of rejection and accept the other and use different names so we can more easily discriminate between the two.
 
Seattlegal said:
My question is:
At what point in the development of the fetus would a mother be able to discern exactly which fetus was hers, and which ones were the clones? At which point in the development would a mother not be fooled by her fetus being swapped for an exact clone?

Is there some point in the development of the fetus that this occurs, or would it vary, according to how mindful the mother was towards the actions of the fetus within her body?
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I think it is the love and input that the parents give which turn the creature into a baby. From what I have heard, once babies are born they must have lots of touching or they will die from sensory deprivation. Without the love, the baby never really comes alive. How soon the foetus develops mentally actually depends upon how frequently the mother and others stimulate it. Some people play music to their unborn for that very reason. Some play them the alpha-bet song. I knew a man, named Dan, who would talk to his baby when he was in bed with his wife. He would say 'Baby, its Daddy'. On the day of birth, Dan and his baby impressed the delivery room staff. The newborn baby was born it was crying, but when Dan said 'Baby, its Daddy' it stopped crying right there in the delivery room and, if I recall, turned towards him. Babies are stimulated and made alive by love and affection.
 
citizenzen said:
You might also sway some opinions by disclosing the economic difficulties of single motherhood.

That might change a few minds, no?

Full disclosure cuts both ways, methinks.
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methinks that where there is a will (that is beyond self), there is always a way...it just takes alot of hard work to raise another life, along with one's own...

I happen to know of a young man of 35 who was single, lived in LA, on the beach (Seal Beach), had a jet set (literally) job, rubbed elbows with the rich and famous of the day, and happened to have two sons about 10 and 12 who loved him, and desperately wanted to be with him...

His choice was to take his sons in with him, or keep on doing his own thing.

When he chose to take his sons, he thought he gave up everything. When he transferred to a ship two years later, and had to send his sons back to their mother, he realized he'd lost everything that meant anything...

He was lucky, because he got promoted and back to land, and got back what he cherished most, and raised them until they flew the nest on their own...
 
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Wil, Thats because there is a difference, as you pointed out.
Although , I dont buy the "manual abortion where the mothers body rejects the child by choice." thats a very loosely descriptive sentence to what really happens.
but it sure doesnt sound so graphic as to what actually happens, now does it?

When a woman miscarries, it breaks her heart. In the first trimester, for some, it may be too early to even realise that there is a pregnancy. For others, knowing that there is new life growing within you, is the most exciting time of your life. You begin to make plans, notice things about other people children, all the little things. Listen to names, and consider them for your child. (Laugh at alot of them, ...but thats another story), By, say, the 12 week, you are getting used to the idea, thinking, "Hmmm, I will have to start to organise buying baby gear again...maybe this time i can buy pink..."
Your youngest child, falls over and cuts his knee, you bend over to comfort him and pick him up,..and then you feel the new life inside you let go...

Yep, it breaks your heart.
 
greymare said:
thats a very loosely descriptive sentence to what really happens.
but it sure doesnt sound so graphic as to what actually happens, now does it?.
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Nope but neither does, "I'll have the filet rare", or "veal parmisagn please" or "isn't this squab delectable" or "can you pass the pate and caviar please"

No it isn't as graphic. And 90% of us wouldn't be carnivores if we had to participate, instead of just hire assassins and cooks.

And as you descibed women who make the choice of aborting a child don't make it lightly.

Of course during and long before Jesus time the women knew the herbs to take if they didn't want their actions to result in a pregnancy...some worked well and early and others....
 
For me, abortion is where the mothers(and perhaps fathers) rights and life take precedence over the childs. , for whatever reason or excuse.

And to me, this is wrong.

but then again, im just a mother what the hell would I know, eh?
 
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