Abortion

Why do I have the distinct feeling that I've just been slapped on the wrist? Lol.

Ok, ok, guys I see your points. The main point I'm trying to make is that I don't think the abortion debate should be so very... political, considering it is really a moral one.

I don't mean to sound like I judge women who have had, or considered having, abortions. But I don't pretend that the decision of getting an abortion is a tough one for all women all of the time. That just isn't statistically possible in my opinion. People are just too different from each other.

Not all people see things the same way that I do, and I get, and respect that. I was trying to say, that in those instances, when an abortion is used as a method of contraception, or when it is just the result of someone not bothering to use a contraceptive, then I do find it rather morally questionable. In fact I find it very disturbing, and irresponsible.

Of course, this is just my opinion. Can't help but have one, and I don't think mine's gonna change on this matter. I can't make everybody happy, and I won't judge women personally on their decisions, but I can't help thinking that certain actions that women in those situations take are morally wrong. You kinda gotta draw the line somewhere, and that's mine.

I don't presume to believe that all abortions fit under the criteria mentioned above, which are the only instances that I have a problem with at all. I didn't assume that they did, and I don't assume to know anything about what's going on in the mind of a woman considering abortion except that it will be something different every time.


Wil, I'm sure that if you look at the perspective of a soldier of either side, they will be fighting for the collective good of their country. Or at least that is why they are told they are fighting... Who's right and who's wrong in times of war, after all, depends on which side your on.

You're perfectly right on the prisoner thing. Sorry bout that, I didn't even think about how long people on death row stay there. Yeah, that was kinda dumb of me...

So, in conclusion, if I've said something offensive, or if something I've said was taken to mean something offensive, I'm sorry. Hopefully my further explanation will help me shed my "bad guy"(I'm a girl, but I hate being PC) persona. :)

"Bad person" just don't have da same ring to it...
 
immortalitylost said:
Why do I have the distinct feeling that I've just been slapped on the wrist? Lol....
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No slap on the wrist.

You say it is political, you are correct, but it is also social, economic, moral, personal and legal.

We in the US are a nation of laws...supposedly...and we have a law. So we can debate all we want...but until the law changes it supercedes.
 
True.

I mainly meant the slap on the wrist thing about Cz and his stretch marks comment, cuz it just kinda seemed he dug it up to make me look the fool, lol. And I'd already explained it, and he *clears throat* helpfully didn't mention a thing about that...

Oh well, yeah, I get that law supersedes all. I just don't particularly think that this debate belongs in the political arena at the federal scale. I mean, really, they should have no jurisdiction over it, and therefore should have no part in it. Like, constitutionally speaking, yano?
 
immortalitylost said:
I don't mean to sound like I judge women who have had, or considered having, abortions. But I don't pretend that the decision of getting an abortion is a tough one for all women all of the time. That just isn't statistically possible in my opinion. People are just too different from each other.

Not all people see things the same way that I do, and I get, and respect that. I was trying to say, that in those instances, when an abortion is used as a method of contraception, or when it is just the result of someone not bothering to use a contraceptive, then I do find it rather morally questionable. In fact I find it very disturbing, and irresponsible.
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What criteria are you going to use regarding this? Are you going to give the woman the third degree regarding her contraceptive use and sexual habits in order to appease your mind?

Of course, this is just my opinion. Can't help but have one, and I don't think mine's gonna change on this matter. I can't make everybody happy, and I won't judge women personally on their decisions, but I can't help thinking that certain actions that women in those situations take are morally wrong. You kinda gotta draw the line somewhere, and that's mine.
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Fair enough. (I might want to ask, are you one of those folks who have to worry about contraception failure?)

I don't presume to believe that all abortions fit under the criteria mentioned above, which are the only instances that I have a problem with at all.
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So your anti-abortion stance is all about sex? Say it ain't so! :(
I didn't assume that they did, and I don't assume to know anything about what's going on in the mind of a woman considering abortion except that it will be something different every time.
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And something different than what is going on in your mind as well.
 
SG, referring to your post. I'll be answering the questions in order.

What criteria am I using?:
I'm just using the criteria of common sense. Every woman thinks differently, and there are some women out there who are going to just plain not care. I'm just trying to be realistic. I think that it's such a delicate subject that people like to think that every abortion is weighed as the gravest decision of a woman's life, but my experience with people tells me this just isn't going to be the case in each and every situation. That was my criteria.

Third degree regarding contraceptive use?:
It's every woman's responsibility to use contraceptives if she doesn't want to become pregnant, but it's also her business alone whether she does or doesn't. It's not my business to get in anyone's face about it, and I wouldn't. But I do reserve the right to see something going on, and have an opinion about it. That's all I'm writing, my opinion.

Do I have to worry about contraceptive failure?:
I'm a twenty two year old girl. Of course I have to worry about contraception failure. And if the device fails, it's certainly not the fault of the woman, or due to her irresponsibility. And I would never suggest that it was.

Anti-abortion stance all about sex?:
Abortion is all about sex. It's about aborting a pregnancy, and the last time I checked, pregnancy is caused by sex. I don't want to stop abortions because they encourage promiscuity or any of that nonsense. My focus is the loss of life, and how I feel about that loss of life varies depending on the circumstances in which it is terminated. So for me, no, my anti-abortion stance isn't about sex. It's about taking a loss of life seriously. And when women make choices willingly that they know could result in them getting pregnant, take no measures to stop themselves from becoming pregnant, and then abort a child when they do get pregnant, and it all could have been avoided in most cases if they had just used a contraceptive. Well, I see those actions as indicating that the life of the resulting child is not being taken seriously. And I don't judge the women that do it. I judge the actions themselves. And only in that specific scenario. I'm not really anti abortion at all, actually. I'm pro-responsibility.

Now, another point you could have been talking about. All the fertilized embryos destroyed at fertility clinics, and extra embryos that take hold being aborted.

Now, I see this as a loss of life, true. But I can also recognize what it feels like to not be able to concieve, and I respect that those embryos are denied the chance at life, but it is all in the pursuit of creating a life that would otherwise have no chance. So, it may not make that situation right, but in my opinion, it is not as bad a thing as getting rid of a baby because a woman refused to, or simply didn't think to, use contraception. It's a matter of degrees, and situation.

Something different than what's going on in my mind.:
I meant that it would be something different every time. Every single one. Different from me, different from you. Each unique. Like I said, I do not judge any woman who has considered, or has had an abortion. I only voice my opinion on certain actions. The actions themselves, not the women who perform them.

Hope that cleared it up. I do remember going over some of this before with you SG, earlier in the thread, so I was a bit surprised by your post. Anyway, hope the explanations help.
 
immortalitylost said:
Anti-abortion stance all about sex?:
Abortion is all about sex. It's about aborting a pregnancy, and the last time I checked, pregnancy is caused by sex. I don't want to stop abortions because they encourage promiscuity or any of that nonsense. My focus is the loss of life, and how I feel about that loss of life varies depending on the circumstances in which it is terminated. So for me, no, my anti-abortion stance isn't about sex. It's about taking a loss of life seriously. And when women make choices willingly that they know could result in them getting pregnant, take no measures to stop themselves from becoming pregnant, and then abort a child when they do get pregnant, and it all could have been avoided in most cases if they had just used a contraceptive. Well, I see those actions as indicating that the life of the resulting child is not being taken seriously. And I don't judge the women that do it. I judge the actions themselves. And only in that specific scenario. I'm not really anti abortion at all, actually. I'm pro-responsibility.

Now, another point you could have been talking about. All the fertilized embryos destroyed at fertility clinics, and extra embryos that take hold being aborted.

Now, I see this as a loss of life, true. But I can also recognize what it feels like to not be able to concieve, and I respect that those embryos are denied the chance at life, but it is all in the pursuit of creating a life that would otherwise have no chance. So, it may not make that situation right, but in my opinion, it is not as bad a thing as getting rid of a baby because a woman refused to, or simply didn't think to, use contraception. It's a matter of degrees, and situation.
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Alright, what then is your opinion of a woman who deliberately becomes pregnant, (either through sex, artificial insemination, or in-vitro fertilization and implantation,) but later aborts because the pregnancy didn't turn out as she planned? {The reason could be anywhere between a serious problem, or another reason altogether.} How would this differ from a woman who unintentionally became pregnant?
 
i understand that this question was directed at Mort, but Ill give you my two cents worth.

abortion is wrong. wrong wrong wrong wrong.

I understand that there are plenty of women who have aborted their children for reasons that they have validated to themselves. I am trying not to judge them. That is not what I am trying to do. What I AM trying to do is say that the ACT of aborting (by choice, not by the body miscarrying..) is wrong.

The act of aborting is something the female once she has done this, will have to carry with her the rest of her life.

And to be perfectly honest, I simply cannot understand a single reason to do this.

The child is innocent completely.

The mothers life is not worth more than the child.

And to be brutally honest, i think its an "easy out".(for some).

Someone who becomes deliberately pregnant and then aborts because there is a serious problem? or didnt turn out as she planned?
REALLY? What is more serious than abortion?
 
@SG

Well, unintentional is relative. I mean, most women know that sex can result in pregnancy, so if you don't want to get pregnant, you should use a contraceptive. I mean, I'm assuming the woman knows about the birds and the bees, ya know?

But to answer your question, well, I can't really answer. I mean, the circumstances are what make a situation a situation. My reaction, could vary quite a bit, depending on a number of variables. I mean, I certainly wouldn't condemn a seriously thought apon decision because of a serious problem with the pregnancy. On quite the other hand, I can see not agreeing with a situation where the woman purposely became pregnant, and then wanted an abortion because her life wasn't going exactly as she wanted it to be when she brought a baby into the world. But I wouldn't condemn it either. Some completely frivolous reason for an abortion, after planning a pregnancy, I couldn't agree with at all. But I don't really like to think on that. It all depends, you see.

My opinion doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things anyhow. But I don't think pro-responsibility is such a bad position to stand with... in the context of a moral argument. And I guess that's where I'll stick.
 
A question answered with a question? Which has nothing to do with it? Yay... Go you.....

christian Thread....

There are chrisitans.... (go figure)

There are also in this group of those people supporters of abortion.... So... What if Jesus the illegitimate ba...child... Was aborted?


This is seen as a valid reason to Kill life.... Is it not? I assume it has to be one of the most common reasons for the death of a child, not the husband/partner's.... Or rape victim or whatever..... Well close behind underage mothers I guess it would come.

I guess, your question|answer can be valid if you are saying, abortion is good because it can destroy potential evil....... Which is a pretty ****ty logic.
 
17th Angel said:
A question answered with a question? Which has nothing to do with it? Yay... Go you.....

christian Thread....

There are chrisitans.... (go figure)

There are also in this group of those people supporters of abortion.... So... What if Jesus the illegitimate ba...child... Was aborted?
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Mary gave her consent to become pregnant with Jesus. (Luke 1:38) That's what she wanted. Why would she want to abort if she wanted to become pregnant with Jesus?


This is seen as a valid reason to Kill life.... Is it not? I assume it has to be one of the most common reasons for the death of a child, not the husband/partner's.... Or rape victim or whatever..... Well close behind underage mothers I guess it would come.
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These are reasons that people other than the one who is pregnant would give, no?

I guess, your question|answer can be valid if you are saying, abortion is good because it can destroy potential evil....... Which is a pretty ****ty logic.
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I'm not saying that abortion is good. (How can it ever be seen as *good?*) It's got to be a difficult decision to have to make--and that decision belongs to the mother.
 
seattlegal said:
I'm not saying that abortion is good. (How can it ever be seen as *good?*) It's got to be a difficult decision to have to make--and that decision belongs to the mother.
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Because everything is good. We just aren't in a position to understand it all.

I see an aborted child (for whatever reason) as a spirit that completed its task for that incarnation and is headed for another. Each life that we encounter touches us in some way. And it is all good.
 
17th Angel said:
There are also in this group of those people supporters of abortion.... So... What if Jesus the illegitimate ba...child... Was aborted?
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Then God would have made a very bad choice as to who carried His offspring. Considering that He is supposed to be "all-knowing" I think that would present a bit of a conflict.
 
wil said:
Because everything is good. We just aren't in a position to understand it all.

I see an aborted child (for whatever reason) as a spirit that completed its task for that incarnation and is headed for another. Each life that we encounter touches us in some way. And it is all good.
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This is how I should be thinking... Grand scale ya know... But sometimes I get sucked down to the level of normal life yano, can't really help it...

Dang... now I feel bad... :(

What if baby jesus was aborted? I see it as a miracle, lol, that he wasn't. ;)
 
Anyone who has an abortion has to live with the effects for life. Christians should not judge anyone. Just believe if people knew what happens to the foetus it would happen less.
 
Abortions will occur regardless of whether or not they are legal. If they are legal it is easier to define the circumstances in which abortions can occur ergo it is best to keep them legal.
 
kiwimac said:
Abortions will occur regardless of whether or not they are legal. If they are legal it is easier to define the circumstances in which abortions can occur ergo it is best to keep them legal.
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That is the epitome of hypocracy in the US.

We can charge and convict a man for killing a woman and her unborn child, for the murder of both, or charge and convict him for assaulting the woman, resulting in the death of her unborn child (again the charge is murder of a human being),

yet the woman can legally terminate the life of her unborn child with no legal consequences.
 
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