Spiritual Side to Islam ?

Thomas said:
What I mean is such symbols arose from the observation of nature, and do not necessarily rely on transmission from a single source.
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Sorry l meant yes, observation of nature, but also l think from a single source, a sequence of events witnessed by all.
 
RJM Corbet said:
I read it. However, when all the fudge is over, it would appear that Islam regards the cross as anathema mainly because it symbolises Christianity?
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Something like that..
I would say that "break the cross" means break the concept of somebody/God dying for our sins.
 
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Thomas said:
Er ... you might wanna check the credibility of Immanuel Velikovsky and David Talbott ... :rolleyes:
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Hi there, l know what they say about the two of them. I'm happy quoting a box of frogs if it sounds right.
 
Cino said:
I can think of a few: The Basmalah, the Mihrab...
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Bismillah is not a symbol
The Mihrab is a 3D object and fulfils a function. It is not a symbol and some mosques probably didn't even have one.
By the same vein, every letter of the alphabet is a symbol. The A? an ox glyph. The L? The way to the latrines. And so on. I consider this untenable.
 
SufiPhilosophy said:
Bismillah is not a symbol
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Why not? It has a recognizable design, I've seen it in many homes, attached to rear mirrors of cars, on necklaces, misbahas... it is unique to Islam, no other religion uses it.

The Mihrab is a 3D object and fulfils a function. It is not a symbol and some mosques probably didn't even have one
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A symbolic function: I do not believe Muslims will bow to a feature of architecture. Again, when I see a Mihrab, I think Islam. It is quite distinctive, like a steeple in some ways.

By the same vein, every letter of the alphabet is a symbol. The A? an ox glyph. The L? The way to the latrines. And so on. I consider this untenable.
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Did you have a particular type of symbol in mind, then?
 
Cino said:
Why not? It has a recognizable design, I've seen it in many homes, attached to rear mirrors of cars, on necklaces, misbahas... it is unique to Islam, no other religion uses it.



A symbolic function: I do not believe Muslims will bow to a feature of architecture. Again, when I see a Mihrab, I think Islam. It is quite distinctive.



Did you have a particular type of symbol in mind, then?
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I take a symbol to mean something that by itself is not the key thing, it is key to a thing. By itself, it has obscurity, opacity.

Bismillah is self evident, but every word, even every letter of the Qur'an is symbolic of deeper meaning. Of course that is not what l mean or what is commonly understood as a religious symbol. I say this as a Muslim. You willl differ.

I don't know what you mean by Mihrab having a symbolic function but it seems like a circular argument, that an object is symbolic to you because it is a symbolic object? Well, okay but as a Muslim l say not. It has immediate function for one thing. Plus it is built with that functionality in mind. Please see the part in bold.
 
Cino said:
Did you have a particular type of symbol in mind, then?
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The nonsymbol is our symbol, because we don't have symbols as far as l'm aware. I'm happy to change that opinion if you were to show me a symbol in Islam.

The crescent and star is a symbol par excellence as is the cross. However the former is not actually part of our religion even though it is used as a symbol for our religion, which ended with completion of the Qur'an and the last sermon of the Prophet.
 
A quick google: The Mihrab directs worshippers to the Black Box, so its use is therefore immediate not merely symbolic.

However it gets more interesting - quote Encyclopaedia Britannica:

"The mihrab originated in the reign of the Umayyad prince al-Walīd I (705–715), during which time the famous mosques at Medina, Jerusalem, and Damascus were built. The structure was adapted from the prayer niches common to the oratories of Coptic Christian monks."

So, this too was a later addition. As l said from the start, a mosque needn't have one, some mosques don't / did not, including ones used by the Prophet.
 
SufiPhilosophy said:
I'm happy to change that opinion if you were to show me a symbol in Islam.
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No thanks, I did, but your belief is that they are not the symbols you say you do not have, and I respect your beliefs.
 
Cino said:
No thanks, I did, but your belief is that they are not the symbols you say you do not have, and I respect your beliefs.
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I've refuted those offerings, please see above, and there was nothing arbitrary in my refutation. By the way, you may be confusing decorative with symbolic but in either case, these are later accretions and not promulgated by the religion itself.


Another definition:

  1. noun
    plural noun: symbols
    1. 1.
      a mark or character used as a conventional representation of an object, function, or process, e.g. the letter or letters standing for a chemical element or a character in musical notation.
    • a shape or sign used to represent something such as an organization, e.g. a red cross or a Star of David.
      "the Red Cross symbol"

  2. a thing that represents or stands for something else, especially a material object representing something abstract.
 
The moon and star symbol is used to denote halaal food, yet Muslims do not flee from it? The moon sets, the stars set. What is different about the cross?

Muslims will refuse food marked with a cross -- even if the food is halaal? I have seen videos of hungry Muslim refugees angrily rejecting (halaal) Red Cross aid parcels?
muhammad_isa said:
would say that "break the cross" means break the concept of somebody/God dying for our sins.
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And: Kill the pigs? What does that mean? Jesus is going to come back and kill pigs?
 
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RJM Corbet said:
The moon and star symbol is used to denote halaal food, yet Muslims do not flee from it? The moon sets, the stars set. What is different about the cross?

Muslim will refuse food marked with a cross -- even if the food is halaal? I have seen videos of hungry Muslim refugees angrily rejecting Red Cross aid parcels?

And: Kill the pigs? What does that mean?
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I like the crescent and star symbol or the halal symbol (actually just the word halal in arabic, so not really a symbol) as it shows me that the food might be for me. However, it is just for convenience. We don't flee it, we know it's not part of the religion, or some of us think it is, hence again, we dont' flee it. Simple :)

Muslims dont' like the cross symbol for reasons aforementioned. I suspect the refugees are angry because they had family burnt and mutilated. Also, this gets too meta now. Re: pigs, l mentioned earlier it might be feral pigs which are slowly taking over the world. Who knows? I don't.
 
muhammad_isa said:
Again, .. it is not meant literally .. it means that Jesus will affirm that pig-meat is not lawful to eat.
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Can i ask why you think it's not literal?

Southern USA and other parts of the world are getting overrun by pigs. It's a huge problem. They destroy crops and physical structures.

Bear in mind that Jesus will pray to God and so rid us of Gog and Magog who similarly will swarm the world and destroy and consume a lot.
 
SufiPhilosophy said:
Can i ask why you think it's not literal?
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The context.

‘The Hour will not be established until the son of Maryam descends amongst you as a just ruler; he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizyah tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts)’. [Bukhari]

We have to take the hadith as a a whole:

1. Christians will no longer believe in "the Redeemer" [ Although the Gospels do not use the title "Redeemer", redemption is used in several of Paul's letters. i.e. "Paul uses the concept of redemption primarily to speak of the saving significance of the death of Christ." ]

2. Christians will no longer eat pig-meat [ Jesus will affirm that pig-meat is not lawful to eat ]

3. Christians will no longer have to pay a tax [ i.e. they will accept he is Jesus son of Mary, and all that he teaches them ]

4. There will be wealth in abundance [ Everybody will be charitable to each other, and nobody will be poor ]
 
Just something on symbols — rites perform the same function as a symbol (old hands here will know I'm quite into the less obvious aspect of the meaning of 'symbol', especially in its mystical application), so washing hands, kneeling in prayer, facing a particular direction ... all have symbolic value.

As for the pagan origin of the crescent and the star, I'd say it has nevertheless now been absorbed into Moslem culture and functions as a symbol of Islam.
 
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