Help Me, I am an addict..

[wil]

So should a good capitalist prey on peoples addictions to make more money ??? Hmmm.

Does it matter if their product helps or hurts people ?

Oh, of course, take a look at the tobacco industry the last 150 years !!

(I think we are headed for the libertarian shuffle again )

Tis exactly what the capitalist does. Wallstreet advertising firms have more people studying the goings on of the human mind than Mayo Clinic and NIH probably any industry put together...

What stops them from buying how do we get them to buy, how do we get them to buy more, how to we create such a need that they go into debt or start businesses, second jobs, become entrepreneurs so they can feed the consumerism habit...

These and other questions are pondered and tested every day....

 

[Janz]

Actually, I really don't know much about how the WWW works for those who design web pages, games, etc; but quite a few have made their fortunes through offering services via the internet haven't they? I recognize that we live in a society where voting with my dollar is the one vote that actually counts. My comment was just that..when I choose to buy anything, I support the company that produces that particular product or services that I want.

Poor Avi, so you think that the libertarians will gang up on you again? I never believed that prohibition worked back when alcohol was illegal to purchase so I guess I would not support it now. I recognize that alcohol and tobacco addictions have a huge cost on our society and all of us pay the price. It is a good issue to discuss and I am conflicted about it..however, I need to go for now.

 

[Avi]

Poor Avi, so you think that the libertarians will gang up on you again? I never believed that prohibition worked back when alcohol was illegal to purchase so I guess I would not support it now. I recognize that alcohol and tobacco addictions have a huge cost on our society and all of us pay the price. It is a good issue to discuss and I am conflicted about it..however, I need to go for now.

Yeah, especially those feminist libertarians, they know how to throw the dangerous karate kicks !

But now that I think about it, it is the libertarian approach which lead to the development of the tobacco industry. Laizze faire, let the industrialists do whatever they like. Build an industry which kills tens of thousands a year and charge it all to our insurance companies. What a libertarian nightmare !! And Dr. Ron Paul says he will clean up the whole mess.

 

[wil]

But now that I think about it, it is the libertarian approach which lead to the development of the tobacco industry.

I thought it was the Native American's and the English...long before the US was founded....I mean stolen from the English after they stole it from the Native Americans.

 

[Avi]

I thought it was the Native American's and the English...long before the US was founded....I mean stolen from the English after they stole it from the Native Americans.

You are right Wil, but our tobacco and insurance industries made it a unique combination of lethality and high cost !!

 

[juantoo3]

But now that I think about it, it is the libertarian approach which lead to the development of the tobacco industry. Laizze faire, let the industrialists do whatever they like. Build an industry which kills tens of thousands a year and charge it all to our insurance companies.

Avi, I hear rants such as yours so very often...but what you say here is incorrect. It is oversimplistic and misleading.

Business does not go into business to foist some evil upon an unsuspecting consumer. Business *does* go into business to serve the needs and desires of the consumer.

Hamburgers kill us. All that cholesterol artery clogging fat. And French fries slathered in saturated fats. And all the preservative chemicals in the condiments...on and on. McD's is killing Americans as surely as any tobacco company...and nobody complains. Why not?

Coca cola is robbing us of our health as well, poisoning our bodies with Phosphoric acid, an acid so powerful it can dissolve a piece of steak if left in it overnight...I saw that with my own eyes in junior high science class. Did you know coke syrup is used by the highway patrol to wash blood stains off the highway after a fatal car crash? And nobody complains. Why not?

Did you know cherry koolaid is used by sailors to clean brass? Did you know it is perfectly legal to have as many as three rat hairs in a bar of chocolate? Ever wonder what all those preservatives and pesticides and artificial flavors and assorted other ingredients are doing to your body? But you don't complain about those things. Why not?

The simple truth is that people buy what they want to buy, and business sets about to give the people what they want. People do not want healthy food; they want food that is convenient, food that tastes good, and food that is inexpensive. If people wanted healthy food, business would supply it...and business does supply that demand. But there are still more people demanding those unhealthy choices and voting for them with their hard earned money.

People that want to smoke (or are addicted to smoking) will continue to buy that unhealthy product. If McD's could somehow magically overnight change into an establishment that only offered healthy food...they would go out of business, there is not enough demand.

Is there some degree of ethical consideration in selling harmful products to consumers? In my mind there is...I would have a difficult time justifying to myself the selling of anything known to be harmful to others. The trouble is, where does one draw the line? Especially if you need to put food on the table, pay the mortgage and put the kid through college. Then that ethical boundary can get a little blurry.

 

[Avi]

Avi, I hear rants such as yours so very often...but what you say here is incorrect. It is oversimplistic and misleading.

Juan, nice speech, , but lets think a little more deeply.

Business does not go into business to foist some evil upon an unsuspecting consumer.

There are all different kinds of businesses, let's not generalize.

Business *does* go into business to serve the needs and desires of the consumer.

Holey mackeral, what kind of cool-aid have you been drinking. Businesses go into business to make money. To make profit for their owners and board of directors. What businesses are you talking about ?

Hamburgers kill us. All that cholesterol artery clogging fat. And French fries slathered in saturated fats. And all the preservative chemicals in the condiments...on and on. McD's is killing Americans

Right, we need the government to get in their and straighten them out !!

as surely as any tobacco company...and nobody complains. Why not?

No one is egregious as the tobacco companies.

Coca cola is robbing us of our health as well, poisoning our bodies with Phosphoric acid, an acid so powerful it can dissolve a piece of steak if left in it overnight...I saw that with my own eyes in junior high science class. Did you know coke syrup is used by the highway patrol to wash blood stains off the highway after a fatal car crash? And nobody complains. Why not?

You have acids in your stomach that are used to break your food down. Does that mean that you are a toxic dump ??

Did you know cherry koolaid is used by sailors to clean brass?

Umm, yummy !!

Did you know it is perfectly legal to have as many as three rat hairs in a bar of chocolate?

Where does he get this stuff ??

Ever wonder what all those preservatives and pesticides and artificial flavors and assorted other ingredients are doing to your body? But you don't complain about those things. Why not?

Sure I do, Juan don't you know me well enough, I complain about everything !

People do not want healthy food;

That is where the government comes in. They are here to "help" you.

People that want to smoke (or are addicted to smoking) will continue to buy that unhealthy product.

Sure, as long as the insurance companies and hence the taxpayers pay for the devastating diseases. If the cost of smoking had been passed back to the tobacco companies, they would have been out of business long ago. Al Gore would have made sure of that !!

If McD's could somehow magically overnight change into an establishment that only offered healthy food...they would go out of business, there is not enough demand.

They should have to fool the folks. Let them think they are eating unhealthy food. but really make it healthy. That would be downright diabolical, right ?

Is there some degree of ethical consideration in selling harmful products to consumers?

You've got to be kidding me, Juan. After that whole speech you ask me this ? Of course there are ethics involved. Common. This is an interfaith forum. Everything has ethical considerations. Pass the paintball gun please !!

In my mind there is...

After all that you agree with me. Gee whiz Juan, you are wearing me down, man !!

I would have a difficult time justifying to myself the selling of anything known to be harmful to others.

Finally, success. Juan, you are cool, after all !!

The trouble is, where does one draw the line?

Above tobacco, McDs and Wallymarts.

Especially if you need to put food on the table, pay the mortgage and put the kid through college.

The violins come out. The tears begin to run.

Then that ethical boundary can get a little blurry.

Aren't ethical choices often difficult ? You can do it Juan !!!

 

[juantoo3]

Aren't ethical choices often difficult ? You can do it Juan !!!

Sure...so I work in the healthcare industry instead, providing healthcare to those who have had the intestinal fortitude to spend a part of their lives serving our nation. Which means at one and the same time I am also a part of the industry that habitually overcharges, masks symptoms with drugs instead of correcting the source problem, runs the risk of compromising private personal information, and through no more than common human apathy often causes more health problems than it solves.

So there you go!

What is so ethical about your line of work? Or are you an independently wealthy trust fund baby with nothing but time to think about how everyone else is doing the world such injustice (while sipping a drink mixed by hired third world labor that barely speaks English, sitting poolside admiring the cleaning boy)?

 

[greymare]

On a lighter note.

I am on facebook and I play Mafia Wars, (dont I alex?) And the great joy that I get is that i am ahead of my boys in this game. Moahaaaaaaa. but also i get a kick out of talking to people like you lot on io, as well as facebook. I keep up with friends and family who live or are serving overseas and in other parts of the country. However its not an addiction i dont think. LOL. If it is, its just another to add to the list. LOL.

 

[Janz]

On a lighter note.

I am on facebook and I play Mafia Wars, (dont I alex?) And the great joy that I get is that i am ahead of my boys in this game. Moahaaaaaaa. but also i get a kick out of talking to people like you lot on io, as well as facebook. I keep up with friends and family who live or are serving overseas and in other parts of the country. However its not an addiction i dont think. LOL. If it is, its just another to add to the list. LOL.

Now that is what I am talking about. You are too for words but I can't just write a message with smilies sooooo here is to all for one and one for all.

 

[seattlegal]

Yeah, especially those feminist libertarians, they know how to throw the dangerous karate kicks !

Not to mention paintballs.
Here's an anarchist paintball, for ya.

But now that I think about it, it is the libertarian approach which lead to the development of the tobacco industry. Laizze faire, let the industrialists do whatever they like. Build an industry which kills tens of thousands a year and charge it all to our insurance companies.

And the insurance companies charge smokers higher premiums.

What a libertarian nightmare !! And Dr. Ron Paul says he will clean up the whole mess.

I suppose you want a libertarian to clean up all these paintballs, as well?
Well, here's some water...

​

​

​

 

[Dream]

Poverty is the best cure for addiction, and I mean that. Seriously, poverty will cure any addiction. I am not joking. Poverty is relative, so you have to find your level before it works -- but it does work.

Friendship is very helpful to break addictions, but I think Facebook friends actually increase the addiction to Facebook games. Its a little bizarre. My favorite Facebook game is My Heroes Ability. Completely pointless, yet it appeals to my flesh. I have to ask myself 'Am I willing to become impoverished in order to break this habit?' I am not.

 

[seattlegal]

Juan, nice speech, , but lets think a little more deeply.


There are all different kinds of businesses, let's not generalize.


Holey mackeral, what kind of cool-aid have you been drinking. Businesses go into business to make money. To make profit for their owners and board of directors. What businesses are you talking about ?

Let's talk about small businesses, that fill the quality niches.

Right, we need the government to get in their and straighten them out !!

Let's see, you start putting all kinds of government regulations on businesses, it'll make it so only the big corporations will be able to deal with the government bureaucracy and compete in the marketplace. It'll put the small, niche-related businesses out of business. I would be very upset if you put the business that supplies one of my addictions out of business.
Welcome to Luna & Larry's Coconut Bliss
My favorite flavors: Dark Chocolate, Cappuccino, and Mint Galactica. I haven't been able to find the Pineapple Coconut anywhere yet.
I might just have to start lobbing something other than paintballs if this business gets put out of business due to government over-regulation!

They should have to fool the folks. Let them think they are eating unhealthy food. but really make it healthy. That would be downright diabolical, right ?

The government doesn't seem to be able to make up its mind as to what is "healthy." Remember the big hub-bub regarding tropical oils back in the 80's, and how they were supposed to be so unhealthy? Guess what. They got replace with transfats. Now, the transfats are unhealthy, and everyone is trying to go back to the tropical oils, which aren't unhealthy for you (anymore,) after all.

 

[wil]

Love the yin/yan paintball....too cool.

Avi, what does the gov't produce? You want to regulate business, who regulates gov't?

In the free market your feminists get to choose the bra they wish to burn based on color, price, size, material and whatever they choose. And then they have the choice to buy whatever they choose. And the businesses that create the bras for burning must cater to the whims of the purchasers, the public or they go out of business.

Now the gov't on the other hand? Any requirement to cater to the whims of the public, any requirement to be cost conscious, make budgets, be accountable and responsible to the consumer....any risk of going out of business??

Who do I trust more, those without any reprecussion for their actions or those that have to please the consumer if they wish to make profits and please them exceedingly well if they wish to make obscene profits??

I think the gov't which takes trillions from us and doesn't know where they spend billions is obscene....not the profits that a company makes off of willing consumers.

hint, if there is money to be made, competetion moves in....

btw, does bra burning contribute to greenhouse gases and global warming? And is that energy/heat being created being utilzed to reduce electric generation or home heating bills or is it wasted??

Ya know ya never answered the one about Jane Fonda selling out and marrying a billionaire...so much for independence...

 

[Avi]

Wil, you are religiously liberal but politically conservative (same as SG), can't you see the contradiction here ? Why don't you apply the same thoughts that you have about treating people compassionately religiously to political issues as well. Your thinking is logically irrational.

I am sure you realize this. I will come back and respond to each of your comments so show you what I mean.

 

[Avi]

Avi, what does the gov't produce?

The government is able to build the most advanced space craft in the history of mankind. NASA is a government agency. Even despite the shuttle disasters, their accomplishments have been nothing short of awe inspiring.

You want to regulate business, who regulates gov't?

Government should be highly regulated, of course !!

In the free market your feminists get to choose the bra they wish to burn based on color, price, size, material and whatever they choose. And then they have the choice to buy whatever they choose. And the businesses that create the bras for burning must cater to the whims of the purchasers, the public or they go out of business.

The free market has no heart. (My feminists ?? )

Now the gov't on the other hand? Any requirement to cater to the whims of the public, any requirement to be cost conscious, make budgets, be accountable and responsible to the consumer....any risk of going out of business??

That is because most have been poorly run. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Who do I trust more, those without any reprecussion for their actions or those that have to please the consumer if they wish to make profits and please them exceedingly well if they wish to make obscene profits??

Those without repercussion for the actions, of course !!

I think the gov't which takes trillions from us and doesn't know where they spend billions is obscene....not the profits that a company makes off of willing consumers.

Remember ENRON ?? How about Madoff ??

hint, if there is money to be made, competetion moves in....

Right, greedy capitalists.

btw, does bra burning contribute to greenhouse gases and global
warming?

There is a new industry for yor greedy capitalists, non-greenhouse gas bras !!

And is that energy/heat being created being utilzed to reduce electric generation or home heating bills or is it wasted??

It depends where they do the burning .

Ya know ya never answered the one about Jane Fonda selling out and marrying a billionaire...so much for independence...

, not a Ted Turner fan ?

Wil, you are in quite a silly mood tonight !!

 

[seattlegal]

Wil, you are religiously liberal but politically conservative (same as SG), can't you see the contradiction here ?

The Government is not God!

 

[Avi]

The Government is not God!

, SG, I am afraid I am going to have to refer you to our panenthisim thread.

By definition if everything is G-d, then Government is part of G-d !!

 

[seattlegal]

, SG, I am afraid I am going to have to refer you to our panenthisim thread.

By definition if everything is G-d, then Government is part of G-d !!

They could step into the harmony of the Tao by practicing wu wei, but alas, they seem to be more interested in molesting the Way than being in harmony.

My apologies for perpetuating politics in the Lounge.

 

[wil]

I'm illogical?? Oh Avi....

The government is able to build the most advanced space craft in the history of mankind. NASA is a government agency. Even despite the shuttle disasters, their accomplishments have been nothing short of awe inspiring.

The shuttle is the biggest load of crap ever sold to us. It was sold as this great thing that was 'reusable' what good is reusable if it costs so much more to fly than conventional. The shuttle cost nearly a half a million dollars to refit for another launch...What did the russians charge us for using theirs?? 10,000 a flight?? We spend a million to build a pen that writes in space, they use a pencil?? NASA is a huge marketing machine that has most of us hoodwinked...including you.

Government should be highly regulated, of course !!

and the gov't regulators are going to regulate the gov't regulators who regulate the gov't....yup...can you spell oversight? there is a reason it is an oxymoron.

The free market has no heart. (My feminists ?? )

Bill Gates, Buffet...two wealthiest men in the world, two biggest free market capitalists in the world...and a couple of the largest hearts in the world, give me a break. I'll listen when you contribute a couple billion.

Remember ENRON ?? How about Madoff ??

Madoff wasn't a capitalist, he was a thief, a criminal, stealing money with a ponzi scheme...absolutely nothing to do with free market capitalism (oh and he was closely watched by your gov't regulators) Enron, do you really think a secretary had earned 300 million in stocks?? Come on, who falls for these stories??

, not a Ted Turner fan ?

Wil, you are in quite a silly mood tonight !!

Oh now this is interesting, suddenly you like free market capitalists, make up your mind my brother.